Former Imam at the Islamic Association in Oslo, Basim Ghozlan, demonstrates the wrong way to fight Islamic radicalism in this article in Aftenposten on the wrong way to fight terrorism, (via Kim Møller):

The superpowers are making a misjudgment when they go only for military solutions. They trust the B52, F16 and Apache to create peace and security, while they ignore the social, political and economic aspects of the issue. This has led to an even broader recruitment base for terrorists.

The extremism is by many explained as religiously motivated. Some have even claimed that the extreme groups are driven by hatred of modernization and the freedom represented by the US. Some have claimed that their goal is to conquer the world and introduce shariah laws. Such analysises are in many ways disappointing. They are wildly wrong, and leads the fight against extremism astray.

It appears that the purpose behind these analyses is to cover up the legitimate targets of those who are responsible for terrorism. It is easier to get sympathy in the fight with terrorism when the explanation is that the country represents the modern, than that the country is a victim of terrorism because it maintains occupation of another country. Can the analysts explain why the "terrorists" hate the US, and not for instance Japan?

On the contrary, I would like to point out that the extremism, while having many religious aspects, is politically motivated. [..]

As long as one fails to take into account the legitimate goals of terrorism, one will never win the battle for peace and security. To claim that the extremists are simply evil people and that they must be fought without going deeper into their demands for freedom, justice and self-determination, will always make even more young people who dream of a normal future to join their ranks. [..]

Governments that do not admit their own terrorism against others, give a solid basis for the extreme forces that reply in the same way. When for instance Israel commits a massacre and kills houndreds of civilians in Jenin and Bush at the same time calls Sharon a man of peace, this will naturally be used as an excuse for doing the same to the US.

It's not hard to find excuses for terrorism when you're allowed to make things up. Houndreds of civilians were not massacred at Jenin. (A later UN report placed the number of victims at 52, of which at least half were combatants.) And it's difficult to fight Islamic terrorism when you agree with its goals, when, in your world, even al-Qaeda is a political group of "terrorists", who has, at worst, responded in kind to American (no-scare-quote) terrorism.

It's not enough to say that you're against terrorism as a method. Muslim leaders like Ghozlan need to take a stand against the ideology behind it as well.

Appaling! The "legitimate goals of terrorism": making a world modelled on the Taliban-run Afghanistan?

Statements like these will only fuel the fire for those who say that it is just not true that it's a few extremists distorting Islam. The problem is deeply at the core of Islam itself.

A few notes from people who know better than I:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2989778.stm Not sure this is for real, but may be:
I absolutely reject the concept of "democracy" and "freedom" as nakedly false phantoms of the west. Who would ever want to be "free" when they could instead live in the glorious order and sanctified grace of Sharia? Why does anyone need to have an opinion for himself?
Shahin Shahida, Iran


http://www.kurdmedia.com/reports.asp?id=1508 a Kurd on Arabs and Muslims 2002
It is a culture which survives and thrives on the past: sanctifying the past, glorifying it and petrifying it for the purpose of repressing the present and restraining the future. It is a consumist culture: consumes, but does not produce; takes but does not give; interprets but does not comprehend, resides in the past but lives as a parasite on the present of others. It is the culture of Deity-father, Prophet-leader, and the Sole-commander of One obedient marching nation. It is the culture of muddle, merger and melting that systematically suppresses aspiration, separation, differentiation, definition and distinction. It is the culture of roaring oratories, deluge of rhetoric and drought of reason. It is the culture of reproduction of repressive totalitarian power which enslaves the individual and insults man’s dignity and humanity.
...
Brothers, for me the values of Arabism were no more than the values of jungle. And what you call Islamic Shari’a, was no more than the law of the jungle. I did not hear an Arab voice, an Islamic voice condemning the mass killing of Kurdish muslim women and children. So, believe me, it is not Saddam. It is the culture which produced Saddam and before Saddam produced many Hajajs and Zaids. It is the culture of despotism which prevails and predominates Arab life and Islamic societies. It is this unitary culture that knows only one and sacrifices the rest for one.


http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=8143 A Moderate Moslem speaks up - "America is the principle adversary of Islamist terror and whether by choice or birth we all inhabit the same danger zone. But our professors never teach us the truth -- that the war on terror protects all Americans, white, brown, black, Asian, Arab, Jew, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, straight or gay from the despotic hatred of Islamist terrorism, which seeks our extermination. That's right, OUR extermination."

Violent terrorist actions against civilian populations are disgusting as such undermines and claims to legitimate goals these people think they have.

One can't help but feel that such comments as these by prominent Muslims serves only to provide tacit approval for terrorist attacks.

The henchmen of terrorists are not trying to "live normal lives" they're trying to change the world so it suit their own twisted beliefs.

"Can the analysts explain why the "terrorists" hate the US, and not for instance Japan?"

Yes. The analyst ct says it is because you muslims are devil-worshipers; allah is a moon god false idol representative of the devil; and you hate the Living God of Creation and hence you hate the two nations on earth you most associate with the Living God of Creation - America and Israel.

world so it suit their own twisted beliefs.

ct: "The analyst ct says it is because you muslims are devil-worshipers; allah is a moon god false idol representative of the devil"

didn't I read this in a Chick comic????????

It's a matter of discernment. Discernment isn't developed from comic books. Discernment is develop was engaging higher influences, and, ultimately, the Word of God; and practicing the Word of God.

("Oh, but...is calling peopole 'devil-worshipers' a Christian thing to do?")

Calling a spade a spade in any kind of warfare is as Christian as God in His own Word.

To offer an alternate reason beyond ct's special viewpoint...

They hate America because America is the largest and strongest of their self-selected enemies. They hate all of the West; but America's (current) position as the head of the class makes us the object of most of the rage. If we ever fell, the next in line would become the new object of hatred until remained but Islam.

That would be a terrible tragedy given the pathetically barbaric "culture" of Islam.

I think of it as a vastly more extreme version of middle-school, where the ugly girl dislikes the prettiest girl the most and all the others in rank order.

Michael: Yes, you did read that in a Chick comic.

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0042/0042_01.asp

Not that having Chick on your side proves you wrong, but it _is_ irrelevant to this discussion what sort of religious traditions Muhammed built on when he created his religion. It's about as relevant to understanding Islam today as pointing out that Jehova used to be a petty, fierce tribal god is to understanding Christianity today.

Bjorn har skrivet: "Michael: Yes, you did read that in a Chick comic."
...Not that having Chick on your side proves you wrong, but it _is_ irrelevant to this discussion what sort of religious traditions Muhammed built on when he created his religion."

I assume that's aimed at ct, s/he's the one who keeps going on about the 'word of god'. I have no beef with Islam per se, though I disagree with proponents of political Islam absolutely. But then political Christianity and Judaism aren't picnics either.

btw I'm impressed that a Norwegian knows Chick comics, I knew they'd been translated and I assume distributed there, but back when I had a small hardcopy collection (from laundromats mostly) even I'd known the things for years and years and didn't know what they were called ... I don't think I've seen any in Poland, some brave evangelicals have been trying to convert Poles from Christianity to Christianity but without much luck.

Michael: Yeah, that last part was for ct.

I only know Chick from the web. That stuff is so creepy and hilarious his website has been linked to for ironic value for years.

I do know Chick's _worldview_ from a paranoid Christian newspaper I grew up with, though. Rock'n roll as the devil's music, invisible demons on every streetcorner ready to grab your soul if you wasn't careful, the anti-Christ somewhere out there biding his time for his final rise to power, all that stuff. Used to believe it too.

Bjorn: "invisible demons on every streetcorner ready to grab your soul if you wasn't careful"

You should go to thislife.org and find the show 'Pray' (there's a search function on the main page) and listen to the story on Prayer walking (called Exodus). I can't do it justice, just listen to it. I once played all 36 minutes of it for a group of people who thought that religious language could never be an interesting topic and they were blown away.

Legitimate or not, Islamic terrorism does have much more limited and specific goals than is often admitted in the West.

Everyone agrees Hamas and the like want to destroy Israel.

But few will admit the obvious truth that Al-Qaeda and the like attack the US in particular, and the West in general, because we support Israel and will not let the Arabs overrun the Zionist state.

Of course, it is true that, even if we let them stomp Israel into the dirt tomorrow, the Jihaders would continue - with a LOT less popular support - to try to subject Muslim lands to Shariah, and so on.

And they would likely continue to be a problem - but less of a problem - wherever Muslim immigrants form a significant minority.

But the heat would definitely be off the US.

Boys, I've never heard of 'chick comics', for the record. If you are so dumb that you fall at the first - the FIRST - stumblingblocks for getting an understanding of Christianity that is your problem. (Hint: go to the Bible. If it means nothing to you then you just havn't been effectually called and leave it at that. If you feel you have to (or can) define God or the Christian message by referencing the usual run of idiocies any religion attracts to itself (especially the True religion) then you need to review your critical thinking catechisms...

Bjorn: little tribal gods don't create the Heavens and the Earth. If you're not a believer then so be it. If you're not a believer you can and will believe whatever about the Bible, but to suggest God Most High, the Living God of Creation, is merely any of a number of "fierce tribal god[s]" is to speak in ignorance of every source and way that God has chosen to reveal Himself to human beings.

On what allah is here is a rundown, take or leave as you can discern...

http://www.souldevice.org/islamgod.htm

I just read that comic you posted, Bjorn, and it didn't come across as all that evil or brutally shallow or dumb... It's the Christian message, take it or leave it, but I saw nothing that was the equivalent of, say, TV faith-healer with the bad hairpiece selling lots for his Jesus theme park...

The apostasy is over Europe fairly thick and strong now, I realize, but if you want to make fun of Christians you can find better stuff than that... (Recall, though, not all who say they are Christian are believers... Holy Writ is my Standard for what Christianity and the Christian Message is... ALL of Holy Writ...

I confess Jesus Christ is my Lord and Saviour.

CT:
"I just read that comic you posted, Bjorn, and it didn't come across as all that evil or brutally shallow or dumb... "

LOL. I'm afraid that only says something about you.

All blogs seems to have a pet fundie hanging around :)

(Mostly) ditching superstition is one of the things Europe has gotten *right*. Religious extremists, no matter what deity or superstition they profess, is probably the major cause of problems in this world.

You mean God isn't hip and modern...? (And I needed a Bergen-ite to tell me this...)

Notice the Jans of the 'modern' world can only see what they choose to see (and see only what conforms to their preformed assumptions and beliefs). He quotes me yet leaves out this:

"...It's the Christian message, take it or leave it, but I saw nothing that was the equivalent of, say, TV faith-healer with the bad hairpiece selling lots for his Jesus theme park..."

In Jan's well-impressed brain I am someone who is buying the lots to the Jesus theme park. Not only is Jan imprisoned by what he's been fed from birth, but he even thinks a Norwegian from Bergen has any kind of standing and experience to affect a tone of 'cool' and lecture the world regarding things like God and by implication religious freedom and etc. (God, which, by the way, has been disproven by every authority that has ever appeared on Norwegian state television and radio).

Jan, you're as cool as your fellow Bergen-ite Sissel when she tried to sell records to an American audience...

Bringing Sissel into that was uncalled for... (I think Sissel is a Christian, actually... Or she use to be...or something...)

No, Bjorn, I won't do the typical internet tit for tat with your atheist contributor.

If he wants to call me names or characterize me in the usual stereotypical ways so be it. It doesn't take much to tweak the Euro-atheist these days... Actually atheists wherever they reside...

CT,

I was actually brought up believing in God. I was very active proselytizing religion before I grew up. Don't make assumptions about people you don't know.

People may well believe in God or Santa Claus or invisible green unicorns all they want, but I don't want their beliefs to make the laws of the land, dictating what everybody should do, and neither do I like the idea if top officials making decisions that effects everybody based on such superstition.

It's science and fighting against superstition that has brought us civilisation, after centuries in darkness under religious bigots.

Jan, you write:

"Don't make assumptions about people you don't know."

Do you see the irony in this indignant statement of yours...?

As for top officials and people dictating to you their beliefs.....maybe you don't realize you live in Scandinavia. (Joking, but just sort of...)

In America we have a nation founded by people who had fought and were fleeing religious persecution. Again, you just simply can't lecture an American on the subject of religious freedom and the philosophical style of self-government that includes separation of church and state. Your assumption that anybody, especially an American, who expresses belief in Jesus Christ is somehow for a theocracy is juvenile (at best).

The Bible itself, the message of Jesus itself, states that one should respect secular authority (in the sense that it is necessary and is NOT SUPPOSED to be God. Render unto Caesar that which belongs to Caesar, render unto God that which belongs to God.)

If you live in a nation the secular authority of which is based on the rule of law, and those laws are wise, then count your blessings. I live in such a nation. The last thing an American Christian wants is for America to become some kind of religious theocracy. To understand that you just have to both know the history of this nation, know the role of Christians in keeping the government philosophically separate from religion, and also experience how diverse and crazy and off-the-mark people tend to be in their religious beliefs. America was bascially founded by Protestants. Protestants inherantly are against theocracy.

What you may hear in your European media regarding American Christians is the usual straw man demagoguery that goes on in the political realm. You have to be somewhat sophisticated regarding American culture and politics to wade through all that and see it for what it is...

ps- You really can't be 'brought up believing in God'. It doesn't work that way. Real belief that is. Obviously many people maintain and grow in your relgious beliefs that they first encountered through their family and childhood, but actual belief, real belief, will have happened at some point separate from that even. Childhood experiences regarding religion can also be one of the most common stumblingblocks for people. If you ever see the light it has to be not-connected to any old or mechanical associations you have picked up in life regarding God and the Bible and the Christian message. You can be born into a self-identified actively Christian family and be as clueless about the Christian message as somebody who never heard anything about it from birth.

I was not born into a religious family myself, and I didn't catch on to the Christian message until I had approached it from the path up the mountain of classical influences (literature, etc.). Whatever it takes.

It's not for everybody though. It's available to anybody, but it's not for everybody...

"It's not for everybody though. It's available to anybody, but it's not for everybody..."

Right. It takes a fair amount of gullibility and ignorance.

The rest of your tirade is nothing short of hypocrisy, considering you started this by decrying the "apostasy" of Europeans. If you support the seperation of church and state, good for you. A hell of a lot of American Christians don't.

Your definition of tirade is interesting. If someone is not petting your favorite dog they are engaged in tirade I suppose...

Apostasy has nothing to do with government, necessarily, Jan. Individual belief. Apostasy just means a falling away from belief, and it is prophecied in the Bible.

Jan writes:

"If you support the seperation of church and state, good for you. A hell of a lot of American Christians don't."

You call me ignorant. This statement is ignorant, Jan. American Christians made damn sure America observed separation of church and state. Your understanding of America is a bit warped. Understandable considering where you live.

When American Christians get involved in the political process simply as any other interest group the usual voices on the left scream theocracy, but they are just participating in the political process as any other group or individual. You have to understand that there is nothing in the U.S. Constitution mandating separation of religion from government. Prayers are said in our congress before each session. This happens whether the left or the right hold the current majority. It's not unconstitutional. So Christians or any other religious group can take part in the political process all they want. If only 'non-religious' people were allowed by law to participate in the political process we would have the worst of the true believers running the show. It's happened rather dramatically elsewhere in the world in the last 100 years, Jan...

There is an understanding that the United States is founded upon Christian values and belief. All are free to believe or not believe whatever they want as their conscience or vanity dictates to them, but to deny that the United States is a nation founded upon Christian values and beliefs is the equivalent of denying that the United States is a democratic republic. This reality is not recognized by law, as it shouldn't be and would be unconstitutional, yet it is recognized philosophically and that has been to the United States benefit in an incalculable number of profound ways... To Europe's benefit as well, Jan...

ct.no cal: True that to an "outsider" there seems to be a contradiction between US respect and protection of all religions (or non-believers) and the assurance that church and state remain separate. The US Constitution is not set in stone (like the 10 Commandments... i.e. Alabama Courthouse). Its potential for growth and change is its strength; the fact that it gives individual states, and towns/cities within those states, the right to interpret those laws is also its strength. But then there is this.... how are these "laws" created? Who does this changing/creating? Ah ha! Here's the deal...

"People may well believe in God or Santa Claus or invisible green unicorns all they want, but I don't want their beliefs to make the laws of the land, dictating what everybody should do, and neither do I like the idea if top officials making decisions that effects everybody based on such superstition."

To participate in the politics of your town, state, or nation takes effort. To become one of those "top officials" takes effort. Even to become a "bottom" official. Luckily, we've got them here...of all religious and non-religious beliefs. I thank God (whom I, myself, have been known to worship) that I live here where that is possible. Empowerment. That's what Americans have. Also the good luck to live in a country with a document that still works.

I am not frightened by but curious about terrorism and interested in understanding the goals of terrorism and of those without a state of their own. Do they see their activities producing the end result of statehood or is the activity itself their only goal? Reading back,
I want to hear more from the "moderate" Arab and how he/she views the effect of terrorism on his or her future.

What Mr. Basim Ghozlan states is merely an iteration of what former US President Dwight Eisenhower spoke to as "the campaign of hatred against us [in the Arab world], not by the governments but by the people". Eisenhower's National Security Council offered the basic reasons: the US supports corrupt and oppressive governments and is "opposing political or economic progress" because of its interest in controlling the oil resources of the region. -- as quoted from Noam Chomsky in a Guardian column on 9 September 2002

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