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From the archives: Remember, remember 11 September; Murderous monsters in flight; Reject their dark game; And let Liberty's flame; Burn prouder and ever more bright - Geoffrey Barto "Bjørn Stærks hyklerske dobbeltmoral er til å spy av. Under det syltynne fernisset av redelighet sitter han klar med en vulkan av diagnoser han kan klistre på annerledes tenkende mennesker når han etter beste evne har spilt sine kort. Jeg tror han har forregnet seg. Det blir ikke noe hyggelig under sharia selv om han har slikket de nye herskernes støvlesnuter."
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Anti-Muslim attacks in the Netherlands
When the US was attacked on 9/11, it struck many of us how few reprisals there were against American Muslims. There were some attacks, but for a country of 300 million, who had just experienced the largest terrorist attack in history, the display of restraint was encouraging. I'm correspondingly discouraged by how the people of Holland have dealt with Theo van Gogh's murder - one death in a country of 16 million. There's been vandalism and arson, pig heads nailed to doors, the bombing of an Islamic school. Øyvind Strømmen sent me this from a Belgian newspaper - it tells you the scale of the reprisals: In the Netherlands a mosque in Huizen and a mosque in Breda was targeted by arsonists this weekend. In Rotterdam an Islamic speechhouse was covered with offending texts, while a gathering place for Moroccans in Amsterdam was smeared with red paint by unknown perpetrators. An Islamist terrorist group has now warned that "the Dutch government and the people will pay heavily" if these attacks don't stop. That's a false threat - Islamist terrorists attack whenever they can, no matter the justification - but if these attacks don't end soon they'll help recruit new Islamists. Many Islam critics seem to simultaneously fear and hope for an all-out conflict between Muslims and natives in Europe. Such a conflict is not inevitable, but anti-Muslim hatred and vandalism will make it more likely.
Sandy P | 2004-11-09 19:36 |
Link
I thought one of those mosques had ties to terrorists or major funders and stirred the pot????? John Edwards | 2004-11-09 19:46 | Link Bjorn.. Obviously you have your facts all wrong. It must be Americans on vacation doing this. Remember, only they are stupid, intolerant, red-neck, right-wing, evangelical fanatics, and inbred enough to do this. As everybody knows, Europeans are tolerant and educated, so there is no way they could be doing this. Folks, this is not acceptable or necessary. All you have to do is speak out and tell Muslims the truth, and demand that your elected officials get over their PC mentality and be honest, for a change. Make it clear that you know that Islam is basicly intolerant. In those countries where they dominate, Muslims must give full and equal rights to women, other religions, jews, gays, etc... Tell them that people must be allowed to criticize Islam and Big Mo. If Muslims cannot accept these truths, then tell them to go back to their goats. Believe me, this drives them crazy. Bjørn Stærk | 2004-11-09 19:58 | Link Sandy P: I thought one of those mosques had ties to terrorists or major funders and stirred the pot????? I heard somewhere the school that was bombed was connected to a mosque with suspicions of extremist ties, but I can't find the link. If that is true, it is relevant to the police whose duty it is to investigate and prevent terrorist attacks. That's not what we're talking about here. Some anti-Islamic nut bombed a primary school - that's what we're talking about. A school. Andrew | 2004-11-09 20:00 | Link Of course it is wrong for people to react in this way, but it can hardly be compared with what happened in the US. After 9/11 president Bush was quick to suppress any major acts against Muslims by reading of the Koran itself and calling it a religion of peace. The US population quickly was given the right way to think with words like radicals and extremist used to describe those involved. Holland on the other hand has been given the same propaganda for some time now, and they don’t deal with a far of enemy that hides in caves. The people who attack mosques feel they attack the enemy itself. The enemy that as they see it, is changing their society, and they’re feeling that they are losing that battle when people who speak up gets killed. How many percent of Holland’s inhabitants are Muslims? I think the number is much grater than in the US. Kenyon Vandervelde, USA | 2004-11-09 20:54 | Link "Of course it is wrong for people to react in this way, but it can hardly be compared with what happened in the US. After 9/11 president Bush was quick to suppress any major acts against Muslims by reading of the Koran itself and calling it a religion of peace. The US population quickly was given the right way to think with words like radicals and extremist used to describe those involved." Bush telling the US population that Islam is a religion of peace and reading from the Koran along with the media’s constant refrain that “Islam means peace” did not “suppress” anything. Americans are too independent minded to accept the “right way to think” from the President or anyone else. The main reason there were few attacks against Muslims and Islamic sites is that Americans knew very little about Islam and have comparatively little experience with Islam or Muslims. The US didn’t see an association between the ideology of the terrorist monsters who carried out 9/11 with the ideology of their Muslim citizens nor have they had bad experiences with their Muslim population who have had an easier time integrating into American society. Europe, on the other hand has handled the integration of their Muslim population badly and there has been a simmering resentment built up for years towards their Muslim population that you didn’t have in the US. Ex-Christian, now Muslim | 2004-11-09 20:58 | Link I salute Bjørn for being fair enough and brave enough to point out these mindless attacks and bombings of Muslim schools and mosques. It really makes me so angry to see this hatred, when white native dutch animal right activist killed the nazi fortum, I did not see any attacks on animal rights centers or animal rights activists, so why the attacks against Muslims ? Shall Muslims do the same in the Muslim world by bombing and attacking churchs or western interests everytime an American or western bombs kill innocent muslims ( as the case right now in Iraq ) ??? if for 1 offensive insulting piece of shit westerner killed many mosques and muslim schools were attacked and bombed, what we muslims should ' burn ' and bomb for the 100,000 innocent Iraqi muslims killed so far in Iraq ???? Bjørn was correct when he pointed these attacks will only create more ' angry Islamists ' who will seek revenge at any cost, something which will be very costy and painful for the ' civilized' people of the west. Nation | 2004-11-09 21:13 | Link "Shall Muslims do the same in the Muslim world by bombing and attacking churchs or western interests everytime an American or western bombs kill innocent muslims ( as the case right now in Iraq ) ???" Excuse you. That is exactly what they are doing and they don't need any excuse either. Scott in PA | 2004-11-09 21:16 | Link After September 11, the American people were rather willing to believe that the barbarous acts of that day were perpetrated by an extremist minority, wholly unrepresentative of the mainstream Islamic faith. In other words, we were ignorant about Islam. I would hope that Americans have learned a lot about Islam in the meantime. I would hope they have learned that just about every Moslem held up as a “moderate” has turned out to have ties to extremist organizations (including one that met with President Bush). That it is near impossible for “moderate” Moslems to be unconnected to extremist groups. That funds almost always find their way to extremists groups. That extremist groups cite justification for their acts in the Koran and hadith that can not be rationalized away. That extremist groups are never censured by mainstream Islamic clerics or anyone else in the Islamic world. That “moderate” Moslems have never expressed any solidarity with the American people, but have instead been quick to express their own indignity at being looked at askance. So, if another act of terror happens here, I’m not so sure that the response would be as peaceful. The number of Americans who want Moslems completely barred from entering the country (as well as Moslems already here deported) is growing. We don’t want to go down the same path as Europe, which is providing a rather horrifying example of cultural suicide. Ex-Christian, now Muslim | 2004-11-09 21:31 | Link Nation ''Excuse you. That is exactly what they are doing and they don't need any excuse either.'' Allright then, there are 57 muslim countries in which nearly 2 billion muslim live, could you please list me all these countries with links to recent attacks in each of these countries against churches or western interests ? thank you.
Ex-Christian, now Muslim | 2004-11-09 21:43 | Link Scott in PA ''I would hope that Americans have learned a lot about Islam in the meantime.''
A NATION CHALLENGED: AMERICAN MUSLIMS; Islam Attracts Converts By the Thousand, Drawn Before and After Attacks http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F30D13FA345A0C718EDDA90994D9404482
http://www.yorknewstimes.com/stories/042702/neb_0427020012.shtml
http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2001/Nov/11/ln/ln06a.html
http://www.newstatesman.com/site.php3?newTemplate=NSArticle_NS&newTop=Section%3A+Front+Page&newDisplayURN=200201070008
Time for your scot to ditch FOX NEWS and all the crap you hear in your media , go to your local bookshop, buy a copy of the Noble Quran, read it by yourself and judge. Jan Haugland, Bergen | 2004-11-09 23:19 | Link Again, Bjørn, you wrote down the unfinished thoughts in my head before I could put them to my blog. Terrorist acts against Muslims must be condemned. The attack against a primary school was especially troubling. The antidote to Islamofascism is not old-fashioned European fascism. Both are our sworn enemies. The difference in reactions against Muslims in the US and Europe is mind-blowing. Americans had so much more reason for anger after 9/11-01. I suspect the real reason is that Americans had confidence that their government would strike back. The Dutch has no faith their government will do anything much. President Bush stood up and gave Americans and their allies confidence that revenge would reach those who were behind the attacks 9/11-01, AND at the same time, when he had more "political capital" than at any other time, made it very clear that ordinary Muslims were not enemies, and the few attacks that happened were roundly condemned. There is NO excuse for vigilante acts. But there are causal explanations, and one is that many people feel their leaders have no backbone to defend them. It fuels helplessness, resentment, lack of respect for law and order and eventually anger and violence. Europe's old-style fascists will grow from this crime and tragedy. So will, at least in the short term, the Islamist brand. Those of us who believe that liberal democracies must stand decisively up to terrorism will have a war on two fronts between Islamofascism and growing European racism, and spineless governments in the middle doing nothing of substance. Nancy; Florida | 2004-11-09 23:28 | Link Bjorn, don't you think that the response is what another poster above commented on - the pent up rage of people who feel that their own culture on their own turf is being trivialized; that they are somehow meant to be endlessly accomodating to immigrants who don't have any obvious interest in integrating into the culture of a country that they presumably thought enough of to uproot themselves and immigrate to? The natives have had enough; and yes, they are over-reacting, but that is what happens when local government ignores the social problems built up by its ill thought out (if well meaning) policies. "there are 57 muslim countries in which nearly 2 billion muslim live, could you please list me all these countries with links to recent attacks in each of these countries against churches or western interests ? thank you." I've got a better question. Could you please list all the western countries containing thousands of emmigrants who leave happily to start life in any muslim country, because they (presumably)consider that country so superior to their own? Erik Jensenholt, Norway | 2004-11-09 23:44 | Link Do you mean Sunni or Shi'ite Islam? Nation | 2004-11-09 23:44 | Link I could mr. muslim, but I am not fan of long cut and paste jobs like you. Well I have seen this coming for years. There will be a big conflict in Europe again and we did it to ourself. Well the elites did it to us. Erik Jensenholt, Norway | 2004-11-09 23:46 | Link Does it matter if I should convert to Sunni or Shi'ite Islam? What do you think? Are they equally right, or is there a difference? Øyvind, Bergen | 2004-11-09 23:53 | Link Jan wrote: There is NO excuse for vigilante acts. But there are causal explanations, and one is that many people feel their leaders have no backbone to defend them. It fuels helplessness, resentment, lack of respect for law and order and eventually anger and violence. Do you feel, Jan, that the above paragraph also applies to Islamists? Øyvind Gunnar, Maryland | 2004-11-10 00:02 | Link The difference in reactions against Muslims in the US and Europe is mind-blowing. Americans had so much more reason for anger after 9/11-01. That's a very good point, which never crossed my mind. Bart W, Oregon USA | 2004-11-10 00:09 | Link In response to Andrew: Muslim populations of various countries as a total and as a percentage are list here: http://www.islamicweb.com/begin/population.htm I can't vouch for the accuracy - this was just from a quick google search. US muslim population is almost 4%, Netherlands is 3%. Hugh, Florida | 2004-11-10 00:17 | Link I believe that the "fascist" response seen in Holland in the aftermath of Theo van Gogh's murder is a result of the perception that the threat of muslim extremism is a domestic rather than a foreign threat. As Jan said earlier, President Bush made it clear that American muslims were not to be blamed for the actions on the 11th September. The attackers were foreign, supported by foreign money and commanded by a foreign zealot. With the enemy seen as being "over there", Americans were able to rally behind their country. The Dutch do not have that luxury. They have no video of a muslim extremist mocking them on the airwaves, no hint of a foreign conspiracy against their culture and its success. The Americans relative restraint against vigilante justice aimed at their Muslim population is admirable, but they have the luxury of fighting a foreign enemy. Europeans face terrorist threats from an enemy within their own borders. The Americans are able to watch their military in overseas action, which has the peculiar effect of raising national pride; the Europeans watch nervously as homes in their own countries are raided by secret police. Until Europeans can feel confident that these large communities of foreigners have assimilated, the fear of the enemy within will prevail. And so too will the vigilante justice. jimmytheclaw, earth | 2004-11-10 00:24 | Link Nancy; Florida | 2004-11-09 23:28 almost exactly what i was thinking. ex c tell me about how all these islamic paradises treat there dhimmi's {dhimmi = anyone not muslim} this is what happens when pc attitudes go too far. and no i'm not anti immigrant. as an american i know how valuable immigrants can be when they assimilate into a country [not try and takeover] however it seems all over the world there is one group that refuses to assimilate and attempts to make the host country give them special treatment or status. i call this group theocratic elites. and it is making many people worldwide to look at your religion as arab imperialism. and yes i know there is no central authority in your religion i do however feel that what comes from its birthplace as the mainstream. Sandy P | 2004-11-10 00:35 | Link Bjorn, I think background can be found in a Rantburg post from yesterday. I'll look it up later tonight, have some things to do now. Interesting new study out by Harvard, terrorism isn't because of poverty, but transitioning to democracy. Link can be found at Instapundit either yesterday or today. Backs up other studies, but those weren't as high-profile as this is. Totoro, U.S. | 2004-11-10 01:01 | Link Jan Haugland, Bergen . . . You said: "I suspect the real reason is that Americans had confidence that their government would strike back. The Dutch has no faith their government will do anything much." I'm not sure I agree with this particular point regarding Americans, but I do think the fact that the Dutch have no faith that their government will do anything is important. If people (in any country) feel that they aren't protected by their government, they will more and more turn to their own resources--either strike back or abandon their homes. This simple cause is, in fact, the basis of "tribal society." It's a major reason why the Middle East is full of unstable and vicious governments. The only kind of government that is stable and civilized is one that protects its citizens. For a further look at this idea, see David Pryce-Jones, The Closed Circle: A Portrait of Arab Society. RSN | 2004-11-10 02:01 | Link Ex-C: "Allright then, there are 57 muslim countries in which nearly 2 billion muslim live, could you please list me all these countries with links to recent attacks in each of these countries against churches or western interests ? thank you" Pakistan comes to mind right away, a few years ago. Pakistani Christians were massacred right in the middle of church service by Muslim. And these weren't even western Christians... Allan, Melbourne | 2004-11-10 05:25 | Link Very discouraging, indeed. Sandy P | 2004-11-10 07:24 | Link Nope, can't find it Bjorn, sorry. Sandy P | 2004-11-10 07:33 | Link Maybe the people feel the gov't isn't protecting them because they don't do anything about the little stuff. What do their crime stats say? Do they show demographics? This could be the peoples' way of saying pay attention to us, you're not doing your job. NYC in the 70s went thru the same funk. Then Rudy RUDY! came and made a point of going after the small stuff. Canada has the same problem, turning a blind eye. And so does Britain (that poor 89 y.o. lady). W/in 10-15 years, their crime stats will surpass ours. Ours are going down. 34 states have some form of concealed-carry. The states/cities which don't have more crime. NYC, Chicago, LA, DC.... Would you want to rob a house in a concealed-carry state? Look at the stats. And if a blind eye is turned because of "tolerance and diversity,"..... Sandy P | 2004-11-10 07:48 | Link It wasn't Rantburg, it was Gweilo Diaries: This was the so called "Muslim School" A Saudi Group Spreads Extremism In 'Law' Seminars, Taught in Dutch Searching for Roots of 9/11, Europeans Find 6 Plotters Took Course in Holland http://www.cidi.nl/news/2003/150403b.html The language was Dutch, but the message was imported from Saudi Arabia, via Saudi books and lecturers who taught a strict, orthodox interpretation of Islam. Mourat, an attendee who offered only his first name, said: "I don't want a separation of state and religion. I want Shariah [Islamic law] here and now." The seminar's most famous graduates: half a dozen members of the group of young men from Hamburg, Germany, who plotted the Sept. 11 attacks. It helped fund the elder Mr. Cheppih's primary school and began running seminars in Islamic law and spiritual belief, attracting several thousand students a year during the 1980s and 1990s. Of these groups, Eindhoven's branch of the Al-Waqf foundation stands out. Its courses have been attended since the late 1980s by self-styled holy warriors from across Europe. Attendance has become a critical credential for those aspiring to jihad, according to terrorism investigators. Like many of the foundations, Al-Waqf is tightly linked to Saudi Arabia. Its headquarters are there, and wealthy Saudis dominate the board of the Dutch branch. Its courses reflect the puritanical strain of Islam promoted world-wide by the Saudi government. The Wall Street Journal, 15 april 2003 EINDHOVEN, Netherlands -- In late February, more than 300 young men from across Europe gathered for a weekend seminar on Islamic law put on by the Al-Waqf al-islaami Foundation. In the bright, austere rooms of this city's Al-Furqaan Mosque, they heard sermons on the hell that awaits unbelievers and the benefits of resisting Western ways of living. The language was Dutch, but the message was imported from Saudi Arabia, via Saudi books and lecturers who taught a strict, orthodox interpretation of Islam. Mourat, an attendee who offered only his first name, said: "I don't want a separation of state and religion. I want Shariah [Islamic law] here and now." For years, the Al-Waqf foundation's seminars have drilled extremist messages into the heads of thousands of young Muslims from across the Continent: Mixing with unfaithful is a form of pollution, Jews are to blame for much of what's wrong in the world, and the rest can be laid at the doorstep of the U.S., according to foundation literature and interviews with attendees. The seminar's most famous graduates: half a dozen members of the group of young men from Hamburg, Germany, who plotted the Sept. 11 attacks. As European government investigators explore the roots of terrorism, they are discovering foundations such as Al-Waqf. Muslim foundations and charities initially came under the microscope for channeling money to terrorists. Now, investigators are taking another look at whether these groups are encouraging terrorism by teaching an intolerant and xenophobic strain of Islam. In France, investigators have raised concerns about L'Institut Europeen des Sciences Humaines at the Chateau-Chinon in the Burgundy region. One member of the Hamburg cell took a correspondence course offered by the institute, the investigators say. In Germany, the Haus des Islam in the small town of Lutzelbach near Frankfurt is under observation, according to German intelligence officials. This organization was set up in the 1980s with cash smuggled into the country from the Middle East, the officials say. Wolfgang Burgfeld, who heads the Haus des Islam, says, "We're just a normal teaching institution." The French institute declined to comment. Of these groups, Eindhoven's branch of the Al-Waqf foundation stands out. Its courses have been attended since the late 1980s by self-styled holy warriors from across Europe. Attendance has become a critical credential for those aspiring to jihad, according to terrorism investigators. Like many of the foundations, Al-Waqf is tightly linked to Saudi Arabia. Its headquarters are there, and wealthy Saudis dominate the board of the Dutch branch. Its courses reflect the puritanical strain of Islam promoted world-wide by the Saudi government. Here in Eindhoven, the foundation's history is interwoven with that of the Cheppih family. Ahmed Cheppih came to the Netherlands from Morocco more than 30 years ago, seeking political asylum from what his son, Mohammed, says was persecution for his Islamic activism. After taking early retirement as a laborer in 1986, the elder Mr. Cheppih got even more involved in Islamic affairs, his son says. "That became his profession here in Holland," explains Mohammed Cheppih, who is 25 years old. The elder Mr. Cheppih helped found the mostly Moroccan Al-Furqaan Mosque and the Netherlands' first Islamic primary school. In 1989, the Saudi-based Al-Waqf foundation opened its branch in Eindhoven, eventually locating in the Al-Furqaan Mosque. It helped fund the elder Mr. Cheppih's primary school and began running seminars in Islamic law and spiritual belief, attracting several thousand students a year during the 1980s and 1990s. The younger Mr. Cheppih says his father sent him to Saudi Arabia to finish high school and then attend university. In 2000, the son returned to the Netherlands as representative of the Muslim World League, Saudi Arabia's main international charity. A heavy-set man with a beard and rimless glasses, the younger Mr. Cheppih looks old for his years. The widely recognized spokesman for the Al-Furqaan Mosque and Al-Waqf foundation, Mr. Cheppih has had a difficult year. Two young men from the mosque were killed in 2002 by Indian soldiers fighting Muslim militants in Kashmir. The Dutch domestic intelligence agency, known as AIVD, said in public reports last year that the pair were recruited in Eindhoven by Islamist extremists. AIVD also alleged that his father's elementary school spreads extremist beliefs and that the Al-Waqf foundation is "damaging to the Dutch democratic order." "These allegations are wrong," says Mr. Cheppih at the end of a long Sunday spent lecturing on Islamic law to young men in the Dutch city of Utrecht. "We are for integration. We hold our lectures in Dutch, not Arabic, and encourage people to be the best citizens possible." Until 2000, the Eindhoven seminars were held in a semidetached house on Paulus Potter Street, a run-down neighborhood now slated for demolition. The house still has some traces of its last owners, which according to city records was the Al-Waqf foundation. Overturned furniture lies in the living room, trash cans in the weedy backyard and a few trial-subscription magazines in the hallway. Two and a half years ago, however, the house -- like the Al-Furqaan Mosque today -- was one of Europe's training grounds for puritanical Islam. Attendees were told to be quiet and attract as little attention as possible, according to Arabic-language handouts that were later seized by German police during raids in Hamburg. Allah, the three-page documents said, was to be worshipped "secretively." But neighbors knew that something unusual was taking place. "Young Arab men with beards and carrying books would arrive in buses and stay for a long weekend or a week," a neighbor says, gesturing over to the house. Narrow Interpretation The readings centered on an extremely narrow interpretation of Islamic law. A key message: mixing with nonbelievers is taboo. A handout from a 1999 conference during the holy month of Ramadan, for example, warned participants not to visit Christians in their homes or accept Christmas cards or gifts. "According to the scholars' consensus, this is forbidden," stated a handout in Arabic that German police seized during a search of the home of El-Hassen Ragi, a Hamburg resident currently under investigation for possibly aiding the Sept. 11 attackers. The 1999 Ramadan conference had an electric effect on Mr. Ragi, his wife, Beate Ragi, said in a sealed deposition taken by police last year and reviewed by The Wall Street Journal. He began to spout hateful slogans, blaming Jews and the U.S. for the world's problems, Beate Ragi said. She is separated from her husband but still lives in Hamburg and shares custody of their child. "Afterwards, he was completely changed," she added. "He demanded that food be put on the table. Then he'd leave us some, and take the rest to his friends. He was hardly home anymore." Condemnation and abandonment of Western influences are central to the extremist Islamic seminars, a German terrorism investigator says. "If you teach that people are inferior, then it's easier to justify killing them," the investigator says. In a separate sealed police deposition, Mr. Ragi said he couldn't remember anything about the 1999 Ramadan seminar: neither who went or who organized it. But another member of the Hamburg circle of young Muslim immigrants who also attended the 1999 seminar, Mohamed Raji, had a better memory. After coming under investigation 18 months ago for allegedly helping to handle logistics for the Sept. 11 hijackers, Mr. Raji returned to his native Morocco. At the request of German police, he was detained by Moroccan police and interrogated. "The event [in Eindhoven] was organized by the Saudi Ministry for Islamic Affairs for five days. Invitations were sent from across Europe," Mr. Raji said in a sealed deposition taken by Moroccan police last year. The Saudi Embassy in Berlin denies that its government sponsored this or any other seminar abroad. On March 24, however, new links came to light between the Saudi Embassy, Eindhoven and the Hamburg cell. The Saudi Foreign Ministry recalled Mohammad J. Fakihi, director of the Islamic Affairs Department at the Saudi Embassy in Berlin. German police say that earlier, they had found Mr. Fakihi's business card among the Mr. Raji placed Mr. Ragi, Mr. Motassadeq and Zakaria Essabar at the 1999 Ramadan seminar. Mr. Motassadeq was convicted in February in Germany for aiding the hijackers. He was sentenced to 15 years in prison. Mr. Essabar, who is wanted as a principal organizer of the attacks, is believed to be in Pakistan or Afghanistan. He left Germany shortly before the attacks. Not long after attending the 1999 Ramadan seminar, Mr. Motassadeq travelled to Afghanistan to train in an al Qaeda-run camp, according to German court documents used to convict him. He later stayed in contact with clerics who spoke at the seminar, according to court records. And earlier that year, according to German investigators, alleged Sept. 11 pilots Mohamed Atta and Marwan al-Shehhi came to a conference in either Eindhoven or Amsterdam. They subsequently went to al Qaeda camps in Afghanistan. Another man who attended an Al-Waqf seminar in Eindhoven was Ibrahim Diab, a regular at the Al-Quds mosque in Hamburg attended by Mr. Atta and his friends. Mr Diab left Germany the day before the Sept. 11 attacks, according to German court documents. He was detained about a month later at the Afghani border by Pakistani police. Graduation Certificate One of the few things he took with him on this trip: a graduation certificate from the 1999 seminar, according to a Pakistani police inventory. "It was like a credential that you have that shows you have the necessary knowledge of Islam in order to be a holy warrior," says another German investigator. Kevin S, Boston | 2004-11-10 08:09 | Link Wake up… Europe’s political correctness will be its downfall. Islam is a disease. As an American who’s spent most of this year overseas, It’s certainly clear to me that it’s over for Europe. Your ever-increasing infestation of the child molesting ‘mo-hound’ (may shit fall upon him) will eventually drag your society, your culture and your economy into the ground. Americans can see it, why can’t you?? Your complete blindness to the obvious is why we find Euros so easy to ignore. I’ve had this conversation a 100 times with Euros over the past 14 months, and after about 3 beers, 9 out of 10 of you will lean over the table to inform me how disgusted you are that the most popular name for children born in your prospective countries is now ‘mo-hound (msfuh) I know it’s true, and you know it’s true. Your thin veneer of It’s over for Europe…the writing‘s on the wall…. you’ve got about 2 generations left, at best. Good luck Europe…it was nice knowing you….. David Elson, Australia | 2004-11-10 08:42 | Link Kevin, Islam is a disease. A certain dictator used such descriptions to describe the jews, do you wish to reproduce his irrational follies? Obviously child molestations amongst some Islamic ethnic groups who do not regard this to be illegal are a serious problem. But a problem that should target through rigorous policing rather than the stirring up of racial hatred. I know a number of Middle Eastern and Asian people here in Australia, and not one of them is a potential terrorist waiting to happen. (Unless cooking a super hot curry can be regarded as an act of terrorism!) I think Europe will be lasting longer than 2 generations! Although with their current devotion to socialistic democracy and consequent economic “benefits”……… Oh well just so long as it doesn’t collapse before the end of the month. I’m going on holidays to Germany, 23th November ;-) Cheers, Kevin S, Boston | 2004-11-10 10:06 | Link Hay Australia.. I was bracing myself for the ‘hitler’ remark. But the fact I was expecting it makes my point. Europe’s pre-occupation with their ‘oh so virtuous’ PC’ness IS the problem. Comparing Germany/Jews then, to Europe/islam now is comparing apples and oranges. Jews weren’t known for teaching hate, crashing planes into buildings, gunning down children in the back, killing film makers in the street,…and we all know I can go on and on and on… I’ve found if you get 4-5 euros all sitting around the table sipping wine, no one really wants to even address the issue of ‘islam’in a very critical manner because someone will inevitably bring up ‘Nazi Germany.’ Get them one on one and all they seem to do is bitch. The Brits bitch about the Paki’s, The Germans bitch about the turks, the Italians bitch about everything. The French bitch about…I actually don’t know what the French bitch about, I tend to completely ignore them (It’s like a hobby of mine) I’m in Shanghia now, and they like the bitch about the Japs…and the US’s policy on Taiwan. (actually I’m going to Taiwan on Sat…will be interesting to see what they bitch about!!) Using Nazi Germany as a reason not to take a critical look at islam is absurd. Dave Elson, Australia | 2004-11-10 11:28 | Link The reason I raised the spectre of Nazi was not to quash criticism of Islamic terrorists, but merely to reinforce the point that it is dangerous to dehumanise any group of people. Regarding certain people as a disease, or as some how less than human can easily lead to human rights abuses How else can many Muslim men justify mistreating their women folk, if they did not somehow believe them to be inferior? I do believe that many nations in Europe need to take greater steps to reduce the problems of dissatisfied Muslim youths within its borders, through aid & integration programs, greater immigration and border controls and obviously a serious anti-terror campaign to root out the hard liners. However I never have and never will advocate a broad policy of oppression against Islamic peoples in the West. You can’t blame them all for the actions of a fascist few. Equating a member of the human race as a "disease" is what's "absurd". Cheers, Allan, Melbourne | 2004-11-10 13:10 | Link "Get them one on one and all they seem to do is bitch. The Brits bitch about the Paki’s, The Germans bitch about the turks, the Italians bitch about everything. The French bitch about…I actually don’t know what the French bitch about, I tend to completely ignore them (It’s like a hobby of mine) I’m in Shanghia now, and they like the bitch about the Japs…and the US’s policy on Taiwan. (actually I’m going to Taiwan on Sat…will be interesting to see what they bitch about!!)" And the Americans bitch about the Europeans. And the Canadians bitch about the Americans. And the South Americans bitch about the North Americans. Christian Lindhardt-Larsen | 2004-11-10 13:46 | Link "This evening in Oslo there was a march commemorating Kristallnacht. According to TV2 News, no Norwegian Jews were present. The authorities, saying that they did not want any trouble, forbade any Jewish symbols, including Stars of David and Israeli flags. On the TV2 evening news, a group of Jews and their friends who wanted to take part in the commemoration were shown being firmly told by a policeman to "please leave the area." This in a city where Muslim demonstrations take place on a regular basis, and include signs and banners bearing hateful, barbaric slogans."
Pete, Paris | 2004-11-10 14:07 | Link Dave Elson, Australia | 2004-11-10 11:28 | Link
That post is right on. Nice one. Best Pete lindenen | 2004-11-10 14:18 | Link I don't think Islam is a disease. I think it's a fig leaf for Arab Imperialism. Just in the same way communism was a fig leaf for Russian imperialism. "I think there is something in that the people feel that the government don't protect them, but I wonder why? They have arrested 7? people already.." They know the government can't protect them, and, more importantly, they can't protect themselves. They feel their insecurity keenly. This is why Americans own guns. Also, all of that religion of peace stuff now is widely considered Orwellian pc bullshit. When people call Islam the "religion of peace", their tongue is planted firmly in their cheek. Sadly, I think Europe will have to resort to mass deportations oen day. You should eliminate all welfare benefits and then you should offer Muslim immigrants some money to leave. After 911 and other events, any American who would convert to Islam is a self-hating sicko. lindenen | 2004-11-10 14:21 | Link "It really makes me so angry to see this hatred, when white native dutch animal right activist killed the nazi fortum, I did not see any attacks on animal rights centers or animal rights activists, so why the attacks against Muslims ?" It's well-known that Fortuyn was killed for his opposition to immigration. And he was not a Nazi. Nation, Norway | 2004-11-10 14:31 | Link It is an outrage that extreme leftists can keep jews out of a demonstration commemorating Kristallnacht. Who do they think they are? I will write an e-mail to them about this. Jerry Carroll, Arkansas | 2004-11-10 15:21 | Link If Euros want to take the threat from Islam seriously, they should read its sacred texts. Only Moslems possess the true faith. Everyone else is an infidel. As such, they have no right to exist. OBL and the lesser lights want to regain the control Islam once had over most of Europe during the caliphate. That was when it led the world in science and learning, then decided for theological reasons to stop its growth and remain fixed forevermore in the stage it had then reached, with some rollbacks here and there as dictated by the Koran. Is there any doubt in anyone's mind that the Dutch filmmaker would have been beheaded if his murderer had the time? Such is the penalty for irrevence in an Islamic society, which Holland will become by the end of the century. Gunnar, Maryland | 2004-11-10 15:23 | Link >> NYC in the 70s went thru the same funk. Then Rudy RUDY! came and made a point of going after the small stuff. That's right, Rudy was brilliant. Zero tolerance. I really admire that when he was a DA, and he went down and to the docks and threatened the mafioso with prosecution, without protection. Talk about "in your face". Sure enough, he followed through. He could be the next US attorney general. And then he could challenge Hillary in 2006, which could screw up her presidency plans. Jan Haugland, Bergen | 2004-11-10 15:23 | Link Øyvind wrote: Absolutely! Islamofascistic terrorism is at least partially a result of long-time oppression from the kleptocracies that rule the Arab world. It is also a result of those thug regimes trying, and to a large degree succeeding, in diverting rage away from themselves onto Israel and the US. "Blame the Jews" is a long-tested tactic for diverting oppressed people's anger away from the real oppressers. Ben Stanwright | 2004-11-10 15:33 | Link Bjorn: I am an American who married a Dane, and I have spent considerable time there over the last 17 years, much of it in Norrebro, where my wife grew up, and where I have seen the impact of immigration first hand. From my very first visit, it amazed me that, while immigration and integration were the foremost topics discussed by everyone I met, it was a topic that the political class would not even touch, unless it was to tsk tsk the great unwashed who were voicing concerns. Every year, I could perceive the disconnect between the government and the people grow and grow, and, every year, I would ask my wife, in amazement, why no political pary even addressed the issue. As you know, one party finally did, and the pressure that was released changed the political landscape. While I am not familiar with Holland, I suspect that the same forces are at work there. Look at the decision yesterday of the Belgian court, outlawing a political party. If you do not allow ideas to be debated in the political forum, no matter how odious you may find them, they will find expression elsewhere. That is a lesson that most Americans are not too dumb or ignorant to understand. Gunnar, Maryland | 2004-11-10 15:43 | Link Good luck Europe…it was nice knowing you….. Ok, Kevin, but what do you really think? BSF, this is what I love about America. Comparing Germany/Jews then, to Europe/islam now is comparing apples and oranges. Jews weren’t known for teaching hate, crashing planes into buildings, gunning down children in the back, killing film makers in the street,…and we all know I can go on and on and on… Excellent point. And even worse is that they learned the exact opposite lesson from what they should have. The lesson should have been, when anti-semitic fascists start to gain power, and start killing people, crush them with all abandon. Nuke the moon. The "lesson" they actually learned for when fascists start gaining power: appease them like Chamberlin did, join them in harrasing jews, side with terrorists against the jewish state whenever possible, allow them to destroy european culture, side with the bad guys in the UN, take bribes from them to hold the Americans back long enough so that the WMD can be safely transferred. Thanks Europe. We'll be thinking of you when our children die horrible deaths because of your nuanced, sophiticated and intelligent opinions which are also completely devoid of wisdom. Gunnar, Maryland | 2004-11-10 15:49 | Link >> Absolutely! Islamofascistic terrorism is at least partially a result of long-time oppression from the kleptocracies that rule the Arab world. This is correct, and obvious to anyone who prefers substance over form. (lefties prefer form over substance). That's why the Bush strategy of regime change is brilliant. Gunnar, Maryland | 2004-11-10 16:00 | Link Every year, I could perceive the disconnect between the government and the people grow and grow, and, every year, I would ask my wife, in amazement Ben, I also have some exposure to both sides, but mostly to the US side. My theory is that contrary to popular myth, not all forms of democracy are equal. After I voted in the last norwegian election, I started a discussion about the idea that europeans aren't as democratic as the US version. This was quite controversial to Bjørn, and the discussion was quite intense (not sure how to find a link to it). To summarize: democracy is not a boolean, but can vary as to degree. It seems like compared to the US system, which has a lot more voting, and is a lot more granular, the european democracies have less voting. Thus, like you say, there is far more of a disconnect between euro govts and the people. Ex-Christian, now Muslim | 2004-11-10 16:14 | Link Jan Haugland Absolutely! Islamofascistic terrorism is at least partially a result of long-time oppression from the kleptocracies that rule the Arab world. It is also a result of those thug regimes trying, and to a large degree succeeding, in diverting rage away from themselves onto Israel and the US. "Blame the Jews" is a long-tested tactic for diverting oppressed people's anger away from the real oppressers''
Ex-Christian, now Muslim | 2004-11-10 16:16 | Link SOMETHING THE WESTERN MEDIA WILL NEVER SHOW YOU: A video showing a muslim suicide martyer driving his car into an American tank in Iraq blowing it up and killing all the American 'terrorists' inside: http://www.islamonline.net/arabic/news/2004-11/10/images/film002.WMV
Rik, Leeuwarden (NL) | 2004-11-10 16:37 | Link I'm sorry to put it this way: but I HATE being called 'euro' or 'european', as if every citizen of the EU can be lumped together. Well, I'm Dutch and I want to stay that way. Sorry, had to make that clear. Why o why does anyone compare this to the US, whatever mr Bush said, whatever mr Giuliani did? Who cares? A islamic school (in Uden) was set on fire, reports about terrorists by the AIVD (the Dutch intelligence agency) were leaked to exactly those terrorists and now a raid on a house in The Hague, apparently filled with terrorists! I don't want to hear a thing about multiculti, marxist-left... if you dare make this part of your own larger than life culture war, I almost feel an urge to grab for a bat, at least... (the entire country has gone mad) Erik Jensenholt, Norway | 2004-11-10 16:45 | Link Ex-Christian, are you Sunni or Shi'ite? ripama, massachusetts | 2004-11-10 16:51 | Link Americans know all about vigilante justice. Back in the 80's I lived in a town next to one of the "People's Republics" in the Boston area. A woman was raped at the train station, and many of my neighbors went out looking for the rapist, armed to the teeth. I was surprised and proud to have neighbors who looked out for each other in one of the most liberal towns in the state. Islam will go after you, if you are weak or let them. Ex-Christian, now Muslim | 2004-11-10 16:52 | Link Erik Jensenholt, Norway ''Ex-Christian, are you Sunni or Shi'ite?
I found Sunni Islam to be the best and the most logical.
Sandy P | 2004-11-10 16:53 | Link Whoa, seems things are heating up in your neck of the woods. Negotiator was called? Were hostages taken????? I might have to record Die Welt tonite. Their post-election interviews were a stitch. lex, dallas TX | 2004-11-10 16:53 | Link The longer-term solution here is the American one: respect people of faith, give them real economic opportunities in a growing economy, and leave them alone. We have used this formula brilliantly throughout our history to attract hardworking, business-savvy religious minorities, from the Quakers and the mennonites in PA to the mormons in the west and Dutch reformed in MI to hasidim in NY and Iraqi Chaldeans in Dearborn MI to sikhs and Korean methodists in California. The Euros' problem is that, instead of strivers, they brought in millions of islamist resenters from Africa and the middle east, ie people who are more concerned with attacking jews and their own women than they are with building businesses and social networks that help their own to succeed. Compounding the problem is the limited access to capital and the myriad difficulties facing small entrepreneurs. Trouble ahead. Get ready for another wave of European emigration to the US, this time the good European muslims, the strivers who will find in the US plenty of tolerance, opportunity and above all, no state interference. Bring them here, the more strivers the better. Ex-Christian, now Muslim | 2004-11-10 16:53 | Link ripama, massachusetts ''Islam will go after you, if you are weak or let them.'' Come on ripama, are you that scared ? are Muslims really that dangerous ? there are nearly 2 billion muslim in the world (third of the world ) imagine if all of them were after you !! Gunnar, Maryland | 2004-11-10 16:57 | Link >> I'm sorry to put it this way: but I HATE being called 'euro' or 'european', as if every citizen of the EU can be lumped together. Well, I'm Dutch and I want to stay that way. Good for you. I agree with you. I'm norwegian, and I want to stay that way. I dread Norway being pulled into the EU mess (I do support a common currency however) You're right, the US culture war is completely separate from the war on islamo fascists. However, references to Rudy are apropo, since he is not a culture war figure. The point is "zero tolerance" for law violations is a great way to start. For example, incitement to violence and advocating crime is a crime. Gather evidence and prosecute it. Put up an even bigger sign that says "Thou shalt not kill" to show support for freedom of speech. Andy Freeman, CA-USA | 2004-11-10 16:59 | Link > Equating a member of the human race as a "disease" is what's "absurd". Wrong. Some members of the human race are a "disease". The fact that some people misdiagnose does not imply otherwise. Thijs | 2004-11-10 17:02 | Link Before reading the other half of my comment: I'am a Dutch guy. I'am against violence. Neither too me as too muslims. I do not believe in Allah, I do not believe in God.
There were some attacks, but for a country of 300 million, who had just experienced the largest terrorist attack in history, the display of restraint was encouraging. There is a major difference between the attacks on 9/11 and the assassination of Van Gogh. Of course there is. Where the 9/11 attacks were from outside America, this murder was from the inside. Mohammed B. (suspect) is high educated, deep faith and born in our country. This makes it for a variety of people seriously difficult to trust their compatriots from now on. To know that it is possible that a integrated and born Dutchman (which he official is) can murder someone, only because he had a different opion. Expressing those feelings and thoughts is hard. It's absolutely no excuse for violence or things like that, but it's a bit of a explanation. And it's a bit cruel when you want to take revenge for a attack on freedom of speech with violence. You are able to talk, you're free to talk, you're civilized enough to talk. So talk! Ending this, I would like to warn you for watching "Submission" without watching the three hours of interview which preceded and nuanced the movie. I'am sorry for my English, I truly am. Gunnar, Maryland | 2004-11-10 17:38 | Link >> To know that it is possible that a integrated and born Dutchman (which he official is) can murder someone, only because he had a different opion. Think brownshirts and the gestapo, they did the same. You sound very naive to these me. Although Al-qaeda is a global movement, the US is covered with cells. The 9/11 fascists lived among us for years, studying our vulnerabilites. 8 out of 19 registered to vote! A sheik from Canada warned the US govt in the 90s. He said he went on a speaking tour of almost all US mosques. He said that almost every one of them was a breeding ground for extremism. Heimo | 2004-11-10 17:55 | Link European nations with their generous social benefits are magnets for people who do not want to work. Live off the state, have lots of babies who will grow up and do the same. If your babies turn into murderers, then let the state deal with it. Blame it on the state. Muslim immigrants in Europe living on welfare, having large families that do not assimilate, are vulnerable to the messages of hatred in the mosque. Sandy P. | 2004-11-10 18:00 | Link Well, rumors, rumors everywhere: "One person of Morrocan origin said to have infiltrated intelligence services and to have informed the killer of Van Gogh that he was being watched." Sandy P | 2004-11-10 18:03 | Link Now you're 2 billion eh - EC? Since when? And where are you pulling your stats from? Erik Jensenholt, Norway | 2004-11-10 18:06 | Link Ex-Christian: If someone converted to Shi'ia or Sufi, would you think of him as less of a true Muslim? Just curious. Ex-Christian, now Muslim | 2004-11-10 18:16 | Link Sandy P ''Now you're 2 billion eh - EC? Since when? And where are you pulling your stats from?'' From the CIA world fact book: http://islamicweb.com/begin/results.htm Ex-Christian, now Muslim | 2004-11-10 18:19 | Link Erik Jensenholt, Norway ''Ex-Christian: If someone converted to Shi'ia or Sufi, would you think of him as less of a true Muslim? Just curious.'' In Islam, anyonwe who declare that: ' There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his last prophet and messenger' is MUSLIM. Shi'as and Sufis are MUSLIMS. jimmytheclaw, earth | 2004-11-10 18:19 | Link i tend to agree with several of the above posts. calling islam what it is frightens a lot of europeans. they tend to remember how the nazi's treated the jews and propoganized against jews, however the point made that it isn't jews, buhddists, hindu's, christians flying planes into buildings, strapping bombs and blowing up women and children then justifying it through religion. it is one group. even the red herring tim mcveigh didnt do his crime for religous reasons. i urge ppl to go read prophet of doom and do like i did [ignore the analasys] just read the words on mohammed read about his glorius deeds then you can see where the root of the problem is. Bjorn any news on whats going on in the hague all ive heard here is sketchy steve fisher | 2004-11-10 18:31 | Link Holland and the US are in no way comparable. Holland is tiny and crowded; the US is vast and has a population many times that of Holland. Also the US is the prototypical "nation of immigrants" Ex-Christian, now Muslim | 2004-11-10 18:40 | Link jimmytheclaw You are really so amusing ! you talked about one and only one group of people who are commiting an act of terror, of course, it does not suit your Islamophobic agenda to talk about those christian fascists who so far killed more than 100,000 muslims in Iraq !! It does not suit you to talk about the atrocities commited against muslims in Thailand and the Philipense by Buddhist and christian governments ! It does not suit you to talk about how GROZNY, a muslim capital, was leveled to the ground by the Russian CHRISTIAN terrorists ! It does not suit you to talk about the massacres commited against muslims in BOSNIA by another group of christian fascists ! And of course, it does not suit you to talk about the daily killings of the Palestineans by the jewish fascists in Palestine !
THE ETERNAL DARKESS OF THE AMERICAN MIND: Our government is as much a terrorist as those in Beslam, Bali, New York and Madrid. It is time we stop thinking ourselves the enlightened culture we are not. It is time to stop a hypocrisy that seems to validate the atrocities we commit while castigating those made against us. http://207.44.245.159/article6997.htm Ex-Christian, now Muslim | 2004-11-10 18:43 | Link steve fisher ''In short, the Dutch nation indisputably belongs to a specific historic people who should be expected to resist a cultural and demographic takeover just like they resisted the Germans in WW2. ''
You cant blame Muslims for the disintegration of the western family and the death of the western nuclear family ! You cant blame muslims for the hedonestic life style most westerners live ! Gill Doyle, California | 2004-11-10 18:46 | Link I have been impressed by the fact that Western European societies seem able, at one and the same time, to (1) express fear and trepidation (in private conversations, at least) about the growing size of Muslim enclaves in their midst while (2) publicly and very sincerely, apparently, expressing solidarity with the oppressed peoples of Palestine and (now) Iraq. Sympathy for the Palestinians and for the insurgency in Iraq extends in some quarters even to a tacit approval of terrorist tactics. Of course, one can legitimately worry about the transformations occurring in one's own society without unfairly blaming the immigrants that account for the change. And concern about what immigration is doing to one's culture need not color one's analysis of what is happening in Israel or Iraq. BUT -- that requires an intellectual and emotional maturity that is truly laudable, and I admire Europe for so far having been able to do this. What is the interplay in Europe between attitudes toward muslim immigration and attitudes toward Israel/Iraq? Will Europe continue to dispassionately divorce the two issues? Will a backlash over muslim immigration cause Europe to look more tolerantly at Israel? Will growing muslim influence in European parliaments cause Europe to grow yet more harsh in its condemnation of Israel? Sandy P | 2004-11-10 18:47 | Link Hey EC about that vid - Is that the European white guy w/a smile on his face? Sandy P | 2004-11-10 19:08 | Link --And the Americans bitch about the Europeans.-- Not until lately, Allan. Hasn't that been a longtime Euro complaint? You don't listen to us, you don't pay attention to us. Only w/this invention of Al Gore's are we now able to "dialog." And the Euros got what they wanted, we're finally paying attention to them. We paid attention during the runup to the war, we paid attention to the guardianistas. And the world got bitch-slapped in the wee hours of 11/3 by Nixon's Silent Majority and African-Americans. And Allan? If you have enough time to spend here, you have enough time to surf radio America and tune into our talk radio. Even email your critiques. The hosts might read it. Can't say your dissent was crushed. Unlike a certain mural which was sandblasted. Actually, you all can participate in the American discourse if you spend a few minutes. We're a big country, lots of options, lots of opinions. But if you want to get out of your echo chamber.....go red, young man. That's American red, not commie red. Sandy P | 2004-11-10 19:25 | Link Christians 32.71% (of which Roman Catholics 17.28%, Protestants 5.61%, Orthodox 3.49%, Anglicans 1.31%), Muslims 19.67%, Hindus 13.28%, Buddhists 5.84%, Sikhs 0.38%, Jews 0.23%, other religions 13.05%, non-religious 12.43%, atheists 2.41% (2002 est.) --- Uhhh, 20% of 6 billion is 1.2 billion. And that was in 2002. And I'm being a little generous.
But it's understandable. Inflated Jenin, The Lancet study was bogus, can't believe anything AJ says. Nice trick having the Iraqis take over the Fallujah hospital and mosque - AJ not able to spin. Hint - If you're going to cite the CIA fact book, your link should be to the CIA fact book. The page was updated on 11/2. www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/fields/2122.html Gunnar, Maryland | 2004-11-10 19:45 | Link Good job Sandy on the figures. 32%, impressive... .23%. You got give them credit for controlling the whole world with so few people. Sandy P | 2004-11-10 19:45 | Link Off of EURSOC: --But moral values need not mean a ban on abortion or opposition to gay marriage. Toynbee also dismisses any campaign based on Europe, immigration and crime - though polls consistently show voters demand more action from governments on all three.--- If the citizens of greater Europe are not being listened to by the unelected Brusselsprouts don't be surprised what's going to happen. The citizenry confers legitimacy upon the government. I keep trying to explain bottom-up v. top-down control. The proles are concerned, their betters cannot keep blowing off the great unwashed for the sake of diversity and tolerance. It's your history. And for a continent which is anti-gun, you guys certainly seem to have a lot of weapons floating about. I don't recall anyone bazooka'ing a bud out of jail w/in the past 2-3 years like what happened in Paris. Michael Farris | 2004-11-10 19:46 | Link This is pretty bad. Bombing schools or desecrating houses of worship is not something civilized people do. If there are people breaking or planning to break Dutch law in such places it is the place of law enforcement to take action and not a bunch of thuggish locals, and no, I'm not interested in hearing their excuses, which are probably just rationalization to pump up their adrenaline and give themselves the nerve (I refuse to call it courage) to do what they've always wanted to. Jay Duggan, Minnesota USA | 2004-11-10 20:06 | Link The Dutch people obviously have no faith that the Dutch government will rectify the situation. We Americans didn't need to burn any mosques because we knew for a fact that "W" was going to find the responsible scum bags and kill them. The Dutch should show some resolve and back bone. Tell the terrorists where you stand and send a company of combat troops to Iraq for every terrorist incident, and they will see a price for their arrogance. Gunnar, Maryland | 2004-11-10 20:14 | Link No people can avoid vigilantes if the government completely fails to protect human rights: to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men Morality and justice exist, even if no one acknowledges them. If it's a house of worship, let them prove it by not being offended by "thou shalt not kill". This fact really supports the case that they worship Tash. Sandy P | 2004-11-10 20:19 | Link Michael, what happens when houses of worship are ammo depots? Ex-Christian, now Muslim | 2004-11-10 20:24 | Link Sandy P: It seems you did not even bother to look at the site I gave you, so I am going to post the statistics here, maybe they will catch your eyes somewho: Muslims in Asia (1996) 1,022,692,000 (30%)
North America (1989-1998)---25%
This report includes nearly all the countries of the world and shows how many Muslims are in each one. Country Name--- Total Population ---Muslims Percentage ---Number of Muslims Afghanistan 22,664,136 100% 22,664,136
I know it must be very scary to think that third of the world are 'terrorists' and indeed coming after you :)))
Gunnar, Maryland | 2004-11-10 20:25 | Link >> The Dutch should show some resolve and back bone. First, I would suggest having every billboard and advertisement blare out "thou shalt not kill". Round up and detain for questioning every potential radical. If they aren't dutch citizens, deport them. Take biometrics from them all (I'm working on biometrics software that might be used in Jordan). Submit these through some big intelligence agencies (FBI, Russian, English, French, etc). If they are wanted anywhere, extradite. Dramatically increase police forces to provide security to parliament and any other figures that they are targeting. Gather evidence of incitement to violence and prosecute. Sift them like wheat. Thijs | 2004-11-10 20:37 | Link @ Gunnar But the 9/11 terrorist came to live in the USA to be able to strike. The were recruited and brainwashed somewhere else (Germany, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan). That is the difference, isn't it? And about that "naïve": although I understand the feelings and actions. I strongly disagree with them, I just put into words what could be the motives for these actions. Thijs | 2004-11-10 20:44 | Link @ Gunnar again ;-) It's against everything we stand for to take the same road as America. We do not want to create a society where every civilian is a suspect. We do not want to create a police controled society. It is naïve to think that "just more police" would solve the problem. Did the 9/11 terrorist just live like normal people, act like normal people? p.s. where did you get the idea of the "thou shall not kill" posters ? Are you emigrated? RSN | 2004-11-10 21:07 | Link Jay Duggan: "We Americans didn't need to burn any mosques because we knew for a fact that "W" was going to find the responsible scum bags and kill them." That's spot on. I remember my anger after 9/11, and I remember how good it felt knowing we were going to war in Afghanistan. And we killed a hell of a lot of scum bags. And it felt good. So no need to burn the mosques of our fellow Americans. Gunnar, Maryland | 2004-11-10 21:11 | Link But the 9/11 terrorist came to live in the USA to be able to strike. The were recruited and brainwashed somewhere else (Germany, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan). That is the difference, isn't it? I don't see why it matters. We have an american guy that made a tape for our viewing pleasure. It makes no difference whether these guys are foreign, domestic, or aliens from Mars, if they have the power and the will to murder, they must be oppposed. It's against everything we stand for to take the same road as America. We do not want to create a society where every civilian is a suspect. We do not want to create a police controled society. America is not that kind of society. The police (homeland defense) don't control our society, they protect it. They work for us, like hired help. The US democracy is very responsive to the people, so they can be fired quite easily. Look, we're talking about fascists taking over your society, just like the Nazis did. Last time, US & British forces liberated you from them. It's not going to happen again. If you don't fight for yourself, no one else will, and your culture will be lost forever. It is naïve to think that "just more police" would solve the problem. Did the 9/11 terrorist just live like normal people, act like normal people? No, it's the most direct solution to the problem. To stop vigilantes, people need to feel safe. Rudy amazed everyone and proved every lefty premise wrong by dramatically reducing crime in NYC. If even the bad big apple can be brought under control, then it's at least possible anywhere. And no, they didn't act like regular people. Multiple males lived together, without much furniture, without any visible means of support. They made contacts with terrorists connections, they flew around a lot, trained in airplanes, took an inordinate interest in exposives, crop dusters, etc. We just were too complacent to connect the dots. Never again. p.s. where did you get the idea of the "thou shall not kill" posters ? Are you emigrated? I have no idea what you could possibly mean by the 2nd sentence, so I'll ignore it. I got the idea because the mosque insisted that the "Thou Shalt Not Kill" mural was offensive and racist, and had to be removed. It's totally amazing that the authorities capitulated on this. No religion worthy of being called a religion would be offended by this simple statement. And if Dutch society is worthy of being saved, it would not appease anyone who demanded that free speech be abridged in this way. Gunnar, Marland | 2004-11-10 21:28 | Link Jay Duggan: "We Americans didn't need to burn any mosques because we knew for a fact that "W" was going to find the responsible scum bags and kill them." That's right, as soon as Jan said this, I also thought of my feelings, and everyone I knew, and I thought of W standing with the firemen at ground zero, and the look of determination in his eyes when he said "the people who did this will hear from us", and at the State of the Union Speech, when he said "We will bring these terrorists to justice, or we will bring justice to the terrorists". And everyone thought, ok, we don't have to worry about it, we can get on with our lives, rough men will take care of this problem. Our job was to keep the economy going. After all, every day the nation stood still, the GDP went down by .4%, and it was at least a couple of weeks. That reduced GDP by 4%! This was something we could control. Gill Doyle, California | 2004-11-10 22:09 | Link "On July 28, Princeton historian Bernard Lewis told the conservative Hamburg-based daily Die Welt that Europe would be Islamic by the end of this century "at the very latest"." http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/004/685ozxcq.asp Is this nuts? And if it is a possibility, is it a problem? David, Australia | 2004-11-10 22:20 | Link Is this nuts? And if it is a possibility, is it a problem? Its no lie that immigrants within european nations have very high birth rates, especially in comparison to the negative growth occurring in their European hosts. Although one can't predict how population growth and birth rates will change over time, and past attempts to do so have failed, it is reasonable to believe that islamic people will continue to and have an increased role to play in determing the future of Europe. This is even more certain when you take into consideration the numbers of people that move easily into Europe across their poorly defended borders. Germany in particular has a problem with this. Thijs | 2004-11-10 22:24 | Link No, it's the most direct solution to the problem. To stop vigilantes, people need to feel safe. Rudy amazed everyone and proved every lefty premise wrong by dramatically reducing crime in NYC. If even the bad big apple can be brought under control, then it's at least possible anywhere. Well, I won't react on the rest of your comment on this very moment. But what I would like to say: Increasing police and intelligence department is a option, but weird. We already make the most telephone taps on this whole planet and are a country with relative a big intelligence department. And following at least 150 muslim extremist (where Mohammed B. in the picture was) hasn't prevent the murder. I really really doubt the point in increasing the police. And giving up the rights in such way, that you can defend those same rights is not a thing I like to do. Gill Doyle, California | 2004-11-10 22:28 | Link Will Turkey be admitted to the EU? What will be the effect on the growth of Islam in Europe? Some argue that Turkey, being a secular state in the Islamic world, will have a moderating influence on Islam in Europe. Gill Doyle, California | 2004-11-10 22:33 | Link Thijs writes: "And giving up the rights in such way, that you can defend those same rights is not a thing I like to do." Thijs -- some people are under that impression that we in America have had to sacrifice civil liberties in order to protect ourselves from terrorists. That has not been the case. Which rights, specifically, would you fear losing? Gunnar, Maryland | 2004-11-10 22:34 | Link And giving up the rights in such way, that you can defend those same rights is not a thing I like to do. Americans haven't given up any rights, so that's a complete red herring. The US also had a big intelligence apparatus, but they were just sitting around analyzing, and not doing anything. Gill Doyle, California | 2004-11-10 22:50 | Link Gunnar writes: "Americans haven't given up any rights, so that's a complete red herring." Gunnar, I think that what you say is true for 99.99% of us, but I guess there have been some abuses. I was just looking at the Wikipedia (admittedly, not infallible), but I think I am convinced now that there is room in the Patriot Act for abuse. The Wikipedia lists some cases. Not very serious, I think. Still, that Act apparently allows for indefinite detention of non-citizens. While, personally, I have not heard of any serious abuses to date, the Act will probably need to be refined. Legislation to refine the Act has been submitted and is being worked on, I guess. For the most part, though, I believe, talk about the Act's restricting our civil liberties is alarmist. And it Europe, it's just assumed, I guess, that we've now got a police state here. To be fair, I think we'd have to say that the Patriot Act was a decent first cut at the problem, but that it will have to be improved. Personally, though, I can ensure Thijs that neither I nor anyone I know is under house arrest. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_PATRIOT_Act David ELson, Qld AUS | 2004-11-10 22:59 | Link "Some argue that Turkey, being a secular state in the Islamic world, will have a moderating influence on Islam in Europe." Well already Turks make up a large majority of the islamic population in many European states, do you think it has had a moderating effect so far? Check these links: http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0913/p07s02-woeu.html http://w3fp.arizona.edu/mesassoc/Bulletin/white.htm Erik Jensenholt, Norway | 2004-11-10 23:11 | Link Ex-Christian: There is something you may not have understood about faith in general. Faith is not about conquest, or war, or enlarging the numbers of your flock, or gloating. It's about coming closer to God, to feel what Christians call "grace". But there is no grace in your words, and no humility. Your words are shrill, full of anger, hate, gloating and fear. You speak nothing of love. You seem to think that only because you call yourself a Muslim, all the hate inside you is automatically justified. You talk like a man who thinks he is at war with the world, and I feel sorry for you. The feelings you express here -- hate, fear, the desire for revenge against others -- is not the same thing as being a man of faith. You seem possessed by what Arabs call the nafs. Has there been a bad experience in your past, which has made you bitter? Perhaps you should talk to someone about it. As for the others here, I detect a lot of hate. Christianity is not about hate. Remember what Jesus said, not only to Christians but to everyone: "Do unto others as you would have them do to you." Treat others as you want to be treated. Sandy P | 2004-11-10 23:38 | Link Timing is everything:
However MMA leaders differed from the traders’ representatives, saying the shopkeepers had sold vulgar Eid cards. Haji Ehsanul Haq, MMA’s Peshawar district secretary general, told Daily Times that people voted for the MMA to purge obscenity and vulgarity from society. He said that the drive against obscenity was reflecting the wishes of the masses which had annoyed shopkeepers. Sandy P | 2004-11-10 23:40 | Link The Patriot Act is online for all to read. And most of it was written under Janet Reno. Ashcroft got a bad rap. Gunnar, Maryland | 2004-11-10 23:45 | Link Gunnar, I think that what you say is true for 99.99% of us, but I guess there have been some abuses. I was just looking at the Wikipedia (admittedly, not infallible), but I think I am convinced now that there is room in the Patriot Act for abuse. The Wikipedia lists some cases. Not very serious, I think. Still, that Act apparently allows for indefinite detention of non-citizens Actually, a study showed there have been no abuses. I don't believe there is a connection between detention of non-citizens and the patriot act. Any government has the right to detain enemy combatants in a time of war. Sandy P | 2004-11-10 23:50 | Link --It's against everything we stand for to take the same road as America. We do not want to create a society where every civilian is a suspect. We do not want to create a police controled society.---
Please. Samizdata has some informative stuff on occasion. Sandy P. | 2004-11-10 23:54 | Link EC- you said the CIA World book - I went to the CIA world book. After as I said, Jenin, the hospital reports and other false info, why would I believe that site? The bigger question is if those people actually had a choice, would they still be muslim????? And what kind of muslim will they be??? One day we will find out. Gunnar, Maryland | 2004-11-11 00:09 | Link >> EC- you said the CIA World book Sandy, I think your data was from 2002, while his was from 95. Sandy P | 2004-11-11 00:20 | Link --I know it must be very scary to think that third of the world are 'terrorists' and indeed coming after you :)))-- I stopped being scared on 10/5/01. I'm pissed, a lot of Americans are. I really don't think you appreciate what that means. Americans don't go out and burn others' flags. Islam's ascendancy ended when Flight #93 chose to fight back. All this is is a few decades-long, bloody clean-up operation. And from what's happened in the last week, the Dutch aren't so happy, either. I would think a few of your comments here have given some pause. Reading Friday prayers and translated articles at MEMRI might start others to take a longer look. When this is spouted off in the Brit papers, others might also begin to wonder if Islam is in the thrall of your whack-a-doo wing: "...Imran Waheed, Hizb ut-Tahrir spokesman, said that UK Muslims “must be the voice of the Muslims of Fallujah against this brutal genocide and the silence of the spineless rulers of the Muslim world. The re-establishment of the Islamic Khilafah will end subservience to foreign colonialist powers.” At some point in time, more and more people will take them at their word and act accordingly. Sandy P | 2004-11-11 00:20 | Link Thanks, Gunnar! Off to dinner. Øyvind, Bergen | 2004-11-11 00:41 | Link Jay wrote: we knew for a fact that "W" was going to find the responsible scum bags and kill them. Yeah, scumbags like Osama bin Laden, for instance. And Ayman al-Zawahiri. They're all dead now. I guess. Øyvind, Bergen | 2004-11-11 00:44 | Link Jan wrote: Absolutely! Islamofascistic terrorism is at least partially a result of long-time oppression from the kleptocracies that rule the Arab world. It is also a result of those thug regimes trying, and to a large degree succeeding, in diverting rage away from themselves onto Israel and the US. "Blame the Jews" is a long-tested tactic for diverting oppressed people's anger away from the real oppressers. And that's worth repeating. Øyvind Øyvind, Bergen | 2004-11-11 00:52 | Link That's why the Bush strategy of regime change is brilliant. Maybe so. It's also why the Bush strategy of being friends with people like the king in Saudi-Arabia, the military ruler of Pakistan, the dictator of Kuwait, the hardly democratic leader of Egypt and the nutcase president of Turkmenistan, for instance, isn't that brilliant. Bush lives in the world of "realpolitik", of course. But still the feeling they get in the Arab world is that "regime change" is something that happens to those who oppose the USA. I hope the praiseworthy democracy initiatives launched by the US the last few years will continue, and that they will be funded properly. After all it wasn't a problem to find the money for the war. Øyvind Øyvind Mitchell Texas | 2004-11-11 01:52 | Link Hey, ex-Christian- did you convert to islam because you had some daughters and you didn't want them educated? Or was it because you could buy a wife or own slaves? Or was it so that you could have sex with young boys? Just trying to find out which part of islam gets you excited..... W. Whitelaw | 2004-11-11 02:05 | Link "That's why the Bush strategy of regime change is brilliant. Maybe so. It's also why the Bush strategy of being friends with people like the king in Saudi-Arabia, the military ruler of Pakistan, the dictator of Kuwait, the hardly democratic leader of Egypt and the nutcase president of Turkmenistan, for instance, isn't that brilliant."
That won't keep the Instant Gratification Generation happy, but I think the adults know that this is a problem which has been allowed to fester for years, and it could take a while to clean up. Allan, Melbourne | 2004-11-11 02:16 | Link Gunnar: Allan, Melbourne | 2004-11-11 02:21 | Link "They all have to be handled at once? That's a bit of a chore even for the United States. I think one at a time will do just fine. As an English mathematician once pointed out - start at the beginning, and when you get to the end, stop." Totoro, U.S. | 2004-11-11 02:25 | Link Sandy P . . . You said: "I'm pissed, a lot of Americans are. I really don't think you appreciate what that means. Americans don't go out and burn others' flags. Islam's ascendancy ended when Flight #93 chose to fight back. All this is is a few decades-long, bloody clean-up operation." My sentiments exactly. "Islam's ascendancy ended when Flight #93 chose to fight back." I almost chose "Flight #93" as my nic but decided that it would wrong since I've never done anything courageous like those passengers did. But I wanted to honor them. Eric Jensenholt, Norway . . . You said: "Ex-Christian: There is something you may not have understood about faith in general. Faith is not about conquest, or war, or enlarging the numbers of your flock, or gloating. It's about coming closer to God, to feel what Christians call "grace"." I agree. The same ideas are also true of Judaism. Allan, Melbourne | 2004-11-11 02:26 | Link Gunnar: Okay, try looking at Switzerland for instance, they vote for even building new town halls. Øyvind, Bergen | 2004-11-11 02:27 | Link I believe I wrote: Bush lives in the world of "realpolitik", of course.. Maybe I just dreamt it all? Anyway, it's a difference between not handling "them", and being good friends. Taking the Saudis as allies in the War on Terror... now, there's a story for the grandchildren. My real point, though, is that Arabs see hypocrisy where Gunnar sees brilliance. And that this is what the States (and other countries) will have to address. So far, no good. Øyvind Øyvind Mitchell Texas | 2004-11-11 02:29 | Link Boy, Allen, your panties are going to be in a real knot when we go take care of Iran's nuclear program. So, what do you think of all those gay rednecks, hispanic rednecks, and blue-state rednecks who all voted for Bush? Kind of makes you wonder if maybe the world is a little bit more complex than "redneck biblethumpers" and "liberal gay baby aborters," doesn't it? Jay Duggan, Minnesota USA | 2004-11-11 02:35 | Link Dear Oyvind, It is funny how the liberals world over whine about human rights, but when America actually goes to free a people and let them give democracy a try, the liberals whine the most. Oyvind should ask those still around from the Norweigan resistance if the lives lost fighting the Nazis were worth it. Freedom is not FREE. Only a European would believe that it is far better to live enslaved to a dictator than to make sacrifices to live in Freedom. I suppose your family was Quislings? When ex-Christian goes terrorist you better hope there is a U.S. Marine present to grab him by the neck and send him to a Guantanamo cage before he kills you just because you are not Muslim. Everybody better pray that "W" is right, and that democracy will spread and have a calming effect on the Middle East. If the strategy doesn't work and terrorist attacks on U.S. soil continue the American people will demand the whole region be turned into a "free fire zone". You are right, "W" is the first U.S. President to recognize that despotic regimes help to fester the worst of the Islamic religion. However, I don't see any European powers rushing to bring freedom to the oppressed. Oh, I forgot, the *spit* French *spit* are "liberating" the people of the Ivory Coast and protecting the world's cocoa supply. Nancy; Florida | 2004-11-11 02:49 | Link Erik Jensenholt - what a lovely post - an island of peace in this tumultuous thread! :) Not to be the least bit disrespectful to you or "lecturing" in tone, but I wouldn't take ExC too seriously. He has the persona of a schoolboy with a lot of time on his hands - certainly he has the time for a lot of long winded posts. I'm still waiting for him to inform us of which Islamic paradise he's posting from - his parent's house in Rancho Palos Verdes CA, perhaps? His dorm room in a Northamptonshire, England boarding school? And perhaps, if he posts another twelve times or so, he'll eventually get round to explaining why it is, if superior muslims are so disgusted with and offended by western culture, they continue to...er...move in, in droves, and not leave? That would be a fascinating lecture. Gill Doyle, California | 2004-11-11 03:01 | Link Allan writes: "Hopefully EU can be strong enough to stop the red-neck influence which so much dominate the American politics these days from spreading too much." Allan, what would you have the EU do in order to stop what you call "redneck" America? I am seriously interested. What concrete actions would you hope for from the EU? RSN | 2004-11-11 03:26 | Link Gill Doyle: agreed. There is precious little Europe can do to stop "redneck America". That's what's so amusing. I'm just glad we got all those jihadists attracted to Fallujah so we can swat them like flies. There is definitely something to be said for the flypaper theory. Robert, NY | 2004-11-11 03:30 | Link Allan: Just out of curiosity, how is the EU going to becom strong enough to have ANY real influence on international affairs, let alone be a balance against "US Rednecks?" European economies are stagnant. Their armed forces are a joke. Ridiculous labor and environmental laws discourage growth. Socialized medecine and the like increase taxes and reduce incentives TO work hard. Between all of the above Europe can barely scrape together enough cash to maintain it's current armed forces. So, exactly HOW is the EU going to help solve ANY of those problems? Adding ANOTHER layer of largely unelected bureaucracy on top of what already exists isn't likely to help. About the only good thing the EU brings is a unified currency. Now THAT is a damned good idea. At least in my opinion. (Though I did much prefer the look of Deutch Marks when I was in Germany... ah well) steve fisher | 2004-11-11 03:41 | Link “Let no social worker, psychologist or another member of the thought police tell us we cannot hate, that we have to turn the other cheek."—Theo Van Gogh’s mother After the horror of WW2 the DUtch and many other West Europeans embraced a soft Marxism/left-liberalism. Now the lesson should be that such a philosophy is unworkable in the real world. iT is time to through out the silly idea that conservatism or even nationalism is equivalent to fascism. RSN | 2004-11-11 03:57 | Link Nancy, Ex-C said he is in Finland, so apparently he's a former Christian Finnish Muslim. Nothing as sensible as a California wacko or an English eccentric. But certainly with the same - if not worse - neurotic obsessions. |
