By Øyvind Strømmen, dilettant.no

The above title is stolen. I found it in an article in the Dutch newspaper De Volkskrant. – This is the feeling many people have wednesday, 10 November 2004, writes Bert Wagendorp. – A feeling that we’re walking alongst the ravine of chaos, hate and escalating violence. Going to bed Tuesday with an outburnt Islamic school in Uden, waking up with more attacks on mosques and churches and with the siege of Antheunisstraat 45 in Den Haag; a bad night.

A bad night indeed. After the murder of outspoken Islam critic Theo van Gogh the Netherlands has seen several bad nights and days. There have been arson attempts at mosques and churches, but also attacks at Islamic primary schools. There have been several incidents of vandalism. There have been threats of further violence, and according to the police a rightwing politician even sent false threats to himself and a party colleague; probably trying to gain politically from the ongoing conflict.

In a poll on the Volkskrant website 45 percent said that they believed the situation would escalate further. While undoubtably unscientific it is still interesting. The times they are achangin’, you might say. And in Uden, Brabant they are angry and confused. De Volkskrant reports: – Something like this doesn’t happen here, they thought as the Islamic primary school went up in flames. The report in De Volkskrant, written by Peter de Graaf, continues:

As if they were drugged they stare at the scorched remains of Bedir primary school. Why? What did these school children in Oost-Brabant have to do with the murder of Theo van Gogh in Amsterdam?

Guley Gezer, who is one of 5,500 inhabitants of foreign heritage in the town of 30,000 people tells De Volkskrant that he’s scared. – I am afraid for our children, for our mosque, for our lifes, she says, staring into the black carcass of the burned-out school, shaking her head. Leo Schenen is shocked too. Who would do something like this. – If integration has been successful anywhere, then it is here in Uden, Frank van Geelkerken says.

The most telltale stories, however, are the stories about the children. A little girl who looks at what’s left of her classroom while her father is fighting against tears. Or the little boy, Mohamed Mohamoud (9) who says: - This simply isn’t normal anymore. The Somali boy is afraid his gloves and his ball was also lost in the fire sea. Another nineyear old, Tulay Bolat, tells De Volkskrant that she made a solidarity poster for peace in the public primary school that day. – I am afraid that a third world war is coming, she says. Her mother caresses the girls head carefully: - That is really not going to happen, my child.

The stories from the Netherlands these days tells us who the real enemies are. We’ll have to fight on two fronts now; on one side we’ve got militant Islamists like Muhammed Bouyeri, the suspected murderer of Theo van Gogh, extremists who kill people for their opinions. A letter spewing anti-Semitism and threats against other prominent Dutch was left on the body of van Gogh. On the other side we’ve got anti-Islamic extremists that take their fight against Islam into primary schools and prayer houses.

We can also see who our friends are. Because the Netherlands aren’t necessarily changing quite the way the people who throw fire bombs at churches and the people who bomb Islamic primary schools want to. The Dutch are joining hands against the extremists. Christian and Muslim leaders speak with one voice: - The violence, the aggression must stop, says Jan-Gerd Heetderks, president of the Protestant Church. – This is a negative spiral that’s threathening to turn into attack and counter-attack. There's a risk that we'll have an unbridgeable 'us and them' opposition between parts of the population and that's something that can't happen, says Mohammed Sini, head of the Muslim organization Citizens and Islam.

And most Dutch find it, as a press release from the leftist party Groenlinks said it, “repulsive that extremists fight their battles over the heads of schoolchildren”.

Øyvind

Thank you for the balanced fair article, extremists on both sides need to be stoped, we cant afford this hate and bigotry in our peaceful land.

And all this because of flawed politics. Leftist politics. Eutopia doesn`t work adding Islam and too great tolerance.

Bjørn and Øyvind,

Sadly, none of this is actually all that unexpected. In fact, it has been inevitable all along. The tragedy is that, even now... in fact even after quite a bit more of the same I suspect, the actual philosophical (yes, philosophical, but not necessarily merely theological philosophy or social philosophy) discussion that must occur will remain untouched.

Øyvind, I respect that you address this is a phenomenom that shows that hatreds are now being unleashed on all sides, and openly address the fact that no "group" has an innate monopoly on moral superiority. This is of course, true. But I want to submit to you the proposition that this isn't really, and never has been the point.

Why was this inevitable? One can begin such a discussion by making reference to Bjorns post the other day about the fact that group(ethnic, religious etc.) violence in the US in the wake of September 11th never materialized. Such violence was heavily predicted by those who are the architects and keepers of the multicultural models of European society, but was dismissed out of hand by the vast majority of Americans. (Its worth noting that in this respect, Bush repeatedly stressing the point that while we were in War with Islamic terror, this did not mean we were at war with Muslims was the perfect reinforcement to the ideals which tended to preclude that violence in the US... it is another of the unsung facets of his leadership which will remain so, until the cool light of history can sift through the nuance of real time emotive imagery.)

Americans dismissed it because ideally, we did not view Muslims in America as a group which encompassed their own culture within other cultures that were located in the geographical borders of the US. On the contrary, we saw them as Americans. Do not dismiss this as "simplisme" out of hand, nor disdain it as either unsustainable or impractical. That would indeed be folly. In spite of the institutional pressures in the US towards many of the same tenets embraced virtually in toto in Europe (as evidenced by the convoluted nature of the EU Constitution for example which bends over backwards to embrace the mutlicultural creed and various other exploded definitions of social justice... to the detriment of any actual meaning), the US still remains fundamentally, a place where cultures build bridges to each other. Multiculturalism, in all its faux philosophical arrogance, has never done this.

Mainly this is because, under the auspices of a multicultural perspective, it is impossible (ironically) to actually openly discuss culture itself!

Those like myself, who reject utterly most of the common threads of multiculturalism (where you can actually find the common threads that is), do NOT, as is often pretended to be the case by those who claim innate superiority based on the sophisticated nature of their thinking, underestimate either the value or impact of culture on the minds of individuals from discrete cultural backgrounds. On the contrary, we see that and discuss it much more fully... since it becomes yet another colorful aspect of the marketplace of ideas.

Here is a quick overview of some elements of that which we call culture, which are rarely considered in the halls of multiculturalism. First, much of "culture" is historically, part of group survival that encouraged US versus THEM. These elements are ordinarily the kind that were top down, and often imposed upon groups in order to rally entire ethnic groups towards conquest or other acts which bring out the worst in human nature. These tenets have long half lives through the generations.

Are these and other aspects of culture, some so onerous that the abrogate individual dignity and stifle free will, the elements that we seek to preserve in stasis in a multicultral society? The imposition of status quo-ism in the mutlicult mindset when it comes to "culture", is extreme to the point of absurdity. No environmentalist, no matter how green, would seek to freeze the bio-sphere so completely as does multiculturalism when it comes to peoples' "cultural identity".

This... is why violence will continue to break out in Europe Øyvind.

Three years ago the world addressed an ideological mayhem that like so many before, had taken to ruthlessly co-opting whatever elements of culture (ethnic religious and so on) were necessary for it to achieve its aims. Europe set about pretending that it could continue to "live in the moment" and to fluff up its image of a patchwork of human "groups" that were discrete and bound by nothing at all. One has to do very little research into the months following 911, to confirm the folly of how Europe clung to its feel good approach to its own internal disparities as though they could be breached merely by thinking about how nice everything is in a "diverse" social quilt.

Even then... and in no small irony... the groundwork was laid for far worse violence then was ever really possible in the US... because in failing to look honestly at a potential cancer, one allows it to fester. How many Muslims in Europe, especially among the young, have been co-opted into a radicalism that they never would have embraced by masters of hateful imagery, while progressive Europe turned its back and empowered the worst by fervently claiming that there are no "superior" ideas in a culture.

In that environment... Ruthlessness is not moved to re-examine itself... it is encouraged by the foolish weakness of those who do not even belive in themselves enough even to stand for their history.

It smells blood.

Thats the way ruthlessness is, and the agents it encompasses act accordingly.

In this respect, the first victims of multicultural obsequiousness... are the Muslim youths who have become automotons to hatred in the last three years. Willing agents of a murrderous nihilism that is only now becoming visible... but may yet remain hidden for a while yet (so solipsist are the trappings of the "progressive" mind that there is already a great bank of fog threatening to decend on the discourse as more nuanced and self immolating spins of the events in Holland and elsewhere are formed). Van Gogh was hardly the first... he just rose above an awareness thresh-hold. This may be one of those historical incidents where it is ironically, a man consumed by hatred like Muhammed Bouyeri, who can ultimately be said to be the reason that many deaths were avoided because he prematurely revealed the true visage of something festering beneath our feet. One may hope.

But whatever we do let us not pretend that by deploying moral equivalencies, and smacking our lips in meaningless displays of faux superiority and dismay over violence from "all sides", that we are flirting with a solution. We are not. In fact we are empowering the enemy. And the enemy is as much ourselves as it is the architects of this murderous ideology.

But the first step... is to recognize that ideology and discuss openly why it can do what it does. This should be done without fear... because in a free society... thats what you do.

Cheers,

KM

Kevin,

An impressive post, an analysis that shows a lot of wisdom.

I see a possible analogy:

The European parliamentary systems encourage numerous partes, which then tend to be single issue (culture), which forces the integration and compromises to be made at the government level.

The US federal system encourages two parties, which means that the integration and compromises occurs at the party level, resulting in a more unified and cohesive government.

http://www.fec.gov/pdf/eleccoll.pdf

Similarly, multiculturalism stresses the values of numerous cultures, which in reality, results in dividing people.

The american melting pot model folds the best of various cultures into one, which helps to unify people. All americans can see a bit of their own culture in american culture, and are proud that their ingredients are part of the mix.

Gunnar,

Indeed. It is often forgotten that the point of federalism is ultimately, to devolve authority as much as possible to the level of the individual. As such, it forces the arbitrage that occurs when diverse groupings of people (whether the disparities that engender their diversity are cultural, ethnic, religious or even ideological is essentially irrelevant) must interface with each other... to the people themselves. There is no more pure approach to freedom than to accomplish this as long as there is a free and open discourse.

I have always felt that it was a terrible shame that the term "melting pot" became the widely accepted label for what it is that occurs in this environment. It permits easy caricaturing as though the process is a form of "cultural imperialism" or "oppression" (and other artful "progressive" terminologies) which is intended to subsume anything not of the original matrix so that the inevitable result is either unchanged from its start point, or a gray goo.

What a crock.

Far more than a melting pot, the result is a tapestry, where in the act of weaving together the diverse enterprise of human thought, art and experience, much is preserved even as much new is created. Hybrids are born even as ancient-ness is conserved. The criteria for preserving is ideally, as should be the case in a marketplace of ideas, virtue. In other words, virtue in the eyes not only of those who engender ideas and modes of thought and traditions, but virtue in the eyes of the many.

In this way, no-one is forced to disabuse themselves of anything at all... but what has virtue, survives because it has virtue to all. By definition... and without clinging to some ideology that claims to have a monopoly on it, we thus collectively defer to the existence of universal truths. Without having to state what that means in a doctrine... we accept its existence in expressions of truth and beauty prima facia. Obviously... the process isn't always pretty... but it is always about what it claims to be about.

One need only consider the many stories of immigrant experiences in New York to realize this. It is easy to point out (ignorantly) the many cases of friction, intimidation and even violence that occurred in this process of "arbitrage", and pretend that it means that there was a design flaw predisposed to oppression. But this postmodern interpretation misses the undeniable fact that one can look at virtually any ethnicity in New York, first second and third generation, and see that what gets preserved, gets preserved well. What gets rejected, was usually incompatible with a free and open society.

Unlike dogmamtic multiculturalists, we happily conclude this vetting process with a healthy "Good Riddance". Indoctrination is unnecessary.

One of the side effects of this is the preservation of meaningful standards of perspective that are bound in moral rather than psychological or behavioral anchorage. You can see that in the ease with which the US was, for the most part, able to look at Afghanistan, Iraq Iran and so forth, consider the horror of 911, and conclude that this manifestation of terrorism is both evil and ideological. As such, it oppresses those who live beneath it just as much as it is terrorizes those who stand against it. Americans did not disdain out of hand (as so much of Europe did) concepts like the "Transformative Effect of Freedom" for any human being. The many rhetorical distinctions that Europe has established to differentiate itself from "simplistic" and "primitive" concepts like this are not fundamental... but in truth are quite superficial and merely a matter of ideological doctrine.

Multiculturalists like to pretend otherwise... as though what they engender might be meaningfully considered an actual "philosophy".

Now THAT... is folly!

Cheers,

KM

--A letter spewing anti-Semitism and threats against other prominent Dutch was left on the body of van Gogh. On the other side we’ve got anti-Islamic extremists that take their fight against Islam into primary schools and prayer houses.---

Hmmm, going to the source.

Oyvind, ever follow the money?

Kevin,

A truly inspired and educational post. You not only have knowledge, but the perspective and wisdom to integrate facts into a coherent view of the world. So, what are doing in Bergen? Where are you from? My father was originally from Os, and my uncle is a professor at the university.

Gunnar

It has always surprised me that Europeans I have talked to can, on the one hand, seem hostile to and fearful of the Muslims in their own European communities while, at the same time, they are filled with comapassion for Arabs in the Middle East whom they feel have been victimized by Israeli and American violence. Support for Palestine and the Sunni insurgency in some quarter extends even to condoning terrorist tactics.

For intance, in Oslo recently, Jews carrying Israeli flags were not allowed to participate in a Kristallnacht memorial parade. The Israeli flag is apparently too provocative a symbol in Oslo. At the same time, Norwegian newspapers seem often to draw parallels between the insurgency in Iraq and the WW2 Norwegian resistance that opposed the Nazi occupiers.

Will Europe continue to be able to separate its feelings about Muslim immmigrants from its sympathies for those in the Middle East who resort to terrorism? Will its sympathies for Palestine and the "heroic" insurgents of Falluja cause it to continue to overlook islamic extremism at home in Europe? Or will a backlash at home (such as we may now be witnessing in Holland) cause it to change its mind about extremism in the Middle East?

jihadwatch is a fun little site:

Robert's put together a map.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/003897.php

Gill wrote: "For intance, in Oslo recently, Jews carrying Israeli flags were not allowed to participate in a Kristallnacht memorial parade. The Israeli flag is apparently too provocative a symbol in Oslo. At the same time, Norwegian newspapers seem often to draw parallels between the insurgency in Iraq and the WW2 Norwegian resistance that opposed the Nazi occupiers."

OK, these are two examples of the same thing -- solid support for the oppressed in distant lands. That's not what I meant to do. I meant to offer examples of a split allegiance. So let me try again. When I was last in Norway (two years ago), I had two conversations -- one with strangers on a train and another with Norwegian relatives, where some anxiety about and antagonism toward Muslims in Oslo were expressed. I was a bit surprised, given what I know about Norway's reputed tolerance. But there it was. (Actually, I lived in Norway for two years, long ago, and have personal experience of such intolerance, and so shouldn't have been so surprised.) Anyway, that's the contradiction in attitudes that I meant to describe.

Kevin, Gunnar, Kim Sook-Im,
thank you for your recent posts, all of you. You are being most informative, you realy are raising the niveau of this blog.

And Øyvind, your anwer to Kim`s last post resembles the one of a coward. Parden me blunt as usual. I bet you can`t refute her claims, you certainly seem to know Islam well enough. And now you know "fuck you" in Korean.

how about everybody in europe just converts to Islam,

and then start to place their own values within it from being within it, and interpreting the texts in all new kinds of ways. Get some new memes within it.

for example:.
yes, I'm a moslim and I think jews are kinda cool dudes.

yes, I'm a moslim and I thought Theo's film was really cool, but needed some car chase scenes and more sex.

So, the Dutch gov't barely survives a no-confidence vote, eh?

And possibly only Dutch imans???

Gill first of all.

Don´t mistake the European press for the European people - the press is largely presented by people to the left of the social democrats out of proportion with how much these lefties actually get in votes in elections. Especially those about unable to get above 2 % of the votes which is required to get seats in the parliament like the communists and the socialists with 8-9 % I believe alone stand for about 30-40 % of the journalists.
We may have a rightleaning government in Denmark but not a rightleaning media world. Not that the Danish press sound like Pravda, it´s more subtle than that, it´s all between the lines and in the selection of subjects and presentation of them.
This is changing though - just the new generation of journalists are largely apolitical or PC and a lot of them afraid or undisposed to mean anything with a tint or glow at all. My experience is that this is not isolated to Denmark though.

...

And for whether you did not see attacks on mosques and like after 9/11 im highly sceptical as to such did not did take place. I can´t remember for sure but I think there was some, but they could no way compete with the shocking event of 9/11 in terms of attention for obvious reasons - actually in the wake USA went to war with Aghanistan without anyone but the usual US haters whining.

However there are some differences to be found not just in the fact of 9/11 being of stunning substance and Theo Van Gogh murder being more predictable.

Bush immediately went out to make the US public sure of that he would take appropiate action in a way that seemed very assuring to the American public I would say, while he also did make it clear that this was not going to be a war against Islam and visiting a mosque the day after, the fact that Americans could rely on Bush to take action spelled a great difference I think - the Dutch people probably don´t feel any equal confidence in their politicians when it comes to take action.

I don´t think the pre 9/11 political correctness was any larger in Europe than in the US. s
Statesmen work on a diplomatical level and calling "Islam a religion of peace" is obligatory for them all. But the wake up call afterwards sounded more in the US than in Europe.

But there are some major differences between US and Europe when it comes to immigrants from the moslem world.
A large percentage of what Europe has received is not exactly from the upper class of moslem countries - where as they have been more likely to move to the US and as a note receive a warmer welcome there + to get a better chance to be the a part of the "well to do" band of society.

Secondly when a European says ghetto and thus meaning a spot full of grey and ugly concrete simplistic kitch bauhaus buildings where he doesn´t like to go at night. This words spells something else to an American.
These Ghettoes here in the major cities of Europe are populated largely by moslems - and since nothing has been done about these are now, though to some extent it´s fearbased exaggeration, still places where bad things happen on an unprecedented scale and few like to go at night, and politicians have been so slow to do anything about it, they about just started.

As part of a national television broadcast featuring interviews, cutscenes from submission there was an interview with a taxidriver from Amsterdam I think. This Taxi driver told the interviewer how he and so many others were angry at what is happening and been happening in years.
I will judge him to be around fifty, he also told how he felt like he was being strangled unable to live and breath in his own hometown due to gangs harassing the streets at night, and due to noone listening, noone doing anything he was not only angry he was sad - he was crying. Now we could marginalize his experience and say it can be much worse, it´s only a few bad apples, it´s not a big issue etc. - we can tell him to get a grip and preach him full of PC words - and this ( surprise ) is what politicians, academics, media has been doing for years. Hardly any of these have ever tried to live in a ghetto themselves or just to live near it - which I can swear personally is enough. I could speak the rest of the day of negative experiences I know more or less first hand. This guy hasn´t been listened to and nor has so many else.
And it goes both ways of course - on Jihadwatch or maybe Dhimmi I saw a comment from one in Rotterdam a city with 48 % immigrants noting that he hardly saw any moslems in the street one of the days after Theo Van Gogh murder. Not even at the market place where they usually abound.

In Europe two fronts of trenches have been build with a huge nomans land in between. For years anything critical of immigration has not been adressed properly, for years anyone critical of immigration has been labelled as intolerant at best, as rascist at worst. For years people caring about their country, about their cultural heritage has been labelled nationalists at best ( which in these days of trying to gather a European union is a really bad bad bad thing and nothing has been sacred in killing the nation state it at times can appear ) nazis at worst.

The situation in Europe do not only call for moderation - it calls for facing the facts as well.
We are not only disintegrating our values and way of society - we are making it so hard in the long run to keep what we have left.
We are placing false belief in that we can make a Euro"US" - while we lack about every prerequisite for it.
We need day for day, more and more, moderate, rational, pragmatic politicians to take action - appropiate action - at times tough actions! We need politicians with wits and guts, with heart and soul, with vision and realism. Otherwise this situation is gonna end up in two hate fronts setting the agenda for everyone.

It´s not in my nature to fear much nor do I fear for myself, but I fear for Europe, I fear for what has been built in centuries shall vanish in this century.

We are placing false belief in that we can make a Euro"US" - while we lack about every prerequisite for it.

We need day for day, more and more, moderate, rational, pragmatic politicians to take action - appropiate action - at times tough actions! We need politicians with wits and guts, with heart and soul, with vision and realism.

Agreed. You also need a government of the people, by the people, and for the people. A democratic republic, with a bill of rights that fits into a few pages, and for goodness sake, separation of powers.

It's not brain surgery. Europe could easily out-freedom the US, and unshackle the creative energy of it's people. The US is probably at 1/3rd of it's potential. It only looks good, because Europe is at 1/6th of it's potential.

As I've been trying to explain - bottom-up gov't not top-down.

The people confer legitimacy upon the government, not the other way around.

That includes the UN.

It exists at our discretion. And you guys had better start looking long and hard as to what it's become.

Friends of Saddam is a good place to start.

Your voices need to be heard. The worst thing for a pol is to get voted out of office.

There was one incidence of violence against a Muslim right after 9/11, down in Texas, I believe. A man went to a convenience store operated by an Arab, and shot him dead.

The jury found him guilty. And he got the ultimate punishment: he was executed. That's right, a Christian American got capital punishment for murdering a Muslim.

That helped to send the right message.

T Hansen writes: "Don´t mistake the European press for the European people - the press is largely presented by people to the left of the social democrats out of proportion with how much these lefties actually get in votes in elections. Especially those about unable to get above 2 % of the votes which is required to get seats in the parliament like the communists and the socialists with 8-9 % I believe alone stand for about 30-40 % of the journalists."

Of course, all I have to go on is what I read i den skandinaviske pressen. I suspected that your journalists might not accurately reflect public opinion, though I think the European public is probably still pretty negative about the U.S. My guess is that 5-15% of Europe would like to see us all dead. 5-15% are actually pro-American. And the rest want to put some distance between themselves and us, but are more fearful and dismissive than angry and vindictive.

What you write about the current crisis and friction between Muslim and non-Muslim peoples in Europe really does impress upon me the seriousness of the situation. Sounds like a moment of truth may be near at hand.

RSN writes: "There was one incidence of violence against a Muslim right after 9/11, down in Texas, I believe. A man went to a convenience store operated by an Arab, and shot him dead.
The jury found him guilty. And he got the ultimate punishment: he was executed. That's right, a Christian American got capital punishment for murdering a Muslim."

I am surprised to hear that the wheels of justice would have turned so quickly. A guy usually sits on death row for years before he is actually executed.

I remember hearing about a Sikh who was shot dead in Arizona. I think it was Arizona. I believe that he operated a gas station. That is the most serious case I know of. The man who killed him didn't know the difference between a Sikh and a Muslim.

I don't recall hearing about any mosques being burned. But it's a big country. It might have happened somewhere.

Gunnar:
"Agreed. You also need a government of the people, by the people, and for the people. A democratic republic, with a bill of rights that fits into a few pages, and for goodness sake, separation of powers."
Thats what we have already, I thought you would know that already. If there is a distance between politicians and people somewhere it must be the US.

It's not brain surgery. Europe could easily out-freedom the US, and unshackle the creative energy of it's people. The US is probably at 1/3rd of it's potential. It only looks good, because Europe is at 1/6th of it's potential."
I think Europe is already doing pretty well. You have to remember that Old Europe is already paying to rebuild New Europe. It really have to be taken into consideration you know. Of course, it will provide great opportunities for Western European countries as well, but we wont see the results of this for years to come.

T Hansen:
"For years people caring about their country, about their cultural heritage has been labelled nationalists at best"
I kinda like Kevins answer to this one.. Dont make it into a patchwork of cultures, its better to build one new culture out of all we have together. Sounds great to me, and for once I agree with Kevin.

T Hansen - Denmark wrote:
"Don´t mistake the European press for the European people - the press is largely presented by people to the left of the social democrats out of proportion with how much these lefties actually get in votes in elections. Especially those about unable to get above 2 % of the votes which is required to get seats in the parliament like the communists and the socialists with 8-9 % I believe alone stand for about 30-40 % of the journalists. "

According to Aftenposten, a poll from may 2003 shows that 36% of Norwegiam journalists vote SV (the socialist left party). 33 % votes AP, the social democrates. That means that almost 70% of the journalists leans to the left.
http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/politikk/article542394.ece

The present paradigm in journalim says it`s allright to let your personal oppinion shine trough. That would be fine if we had a variety of oppinions in our media. But that`s not the current situation, it more resembles leftist propaganda.

Gunnar wrote:
"Agreed. You also need a government of the people, by the people, and for the people. A democratic republic, with a bill of rights that fits into a few pages, and for goodness sake, separation of powers. "

The current EU is placed upon the principles of consensus and a large body of treatys. The Council holds most of the powers, democratic legitimity are being watered out. And any kind of efficency and decisiveness in government is practicly impossibel.

Do you really think these basicly US-critical europeans ever will adopt the basic principles of US constitution? I don`t think it`s very likely.

MORE MINDLESS ATTACKS ON MUSLIMS IN HOLLAND:

Mosque set on fire in Netherlands

There has been another fire in a mosque in the Netherlands, in what appeared to be the latest in a spate of attacks.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4008781.stm

pablo, madrid

''how about everybody in europe just converts to Islam''

[** Spanish article DELETED. Don't post complete articles, just a quote and a link. And keep it in English. -bs]

http://www.islamhispania.com

http://www.dr.dk/nyheder/udland/article.jhtml?articleID=213581

here is a good example by the way on how media sometimes works here via www.filtrat.dk:

"De højkonservative Times og Daily Telegraph roser Tony Blair for hans mod til at støtte George Bush, og minder om den store popularitet, Blair nyder i hele USA, mens de uafhængige Guardian og Independent er noget mere forebeholdne"

My bad translation:

"The highly conservative Times and daily Telegraph are praising Tony Blair for his courage in supporting Bush ... While the Independent newspapers Guardian and Independent are more reserved."

Highly conservative news papers vs Erhm independent ones like guardian. Just a little journalistic sleight of hand.

nilsr:

I did not comment on Kims post because I felt that she did not contribute much new to the debate, and because I had chosen to leave that thread. I will happily discuss Islam with her, you or anyone else at any time.

When it comes to my qualifications I can not see that they really matter, but if you want to know it I've studied religious science and Middle Eastern history. I've also tried to learn some Arabic, but that is a slow process.

Kim is right about several of the statements she makes:

1. Islam is not monolithic.

This has been one of my points in almost every post I've written on Islam and Islamism on this blog. Kim does a mistake, though, when she draws the line between Sunnis and Shias on the one side and Ahmadiyyas on the other side. The Ahmadiyyas and the Qadianis are truly very liberal Muslims, but there are great differences within both the Shia and the Sunni branches of Islam, and it is simply wrong to claim that both these branches as a whole are practicing "old-testamental judeo-Christianity. Making such comparissons are simplistic in any case, but not necessarily pointless for all branches of Islam.

2. From a religious history point of view there's little doubt that several traditions in Islam are derived from Judaism and early Christianity. Other traditions are derived from other religions, including Zoroastrism and local pre-Islamic religions. This includes several of the examples pointed out by Kim.

Her statement that modern Muslims are practising the religion of the pharasees, however, is wrong. Muslim religion has developed from numerous sources. The religion of the pharasees, Pharisaic Judaism, has developed into the Rabbinic Judaism of today. As such, the pharasees can be considered the forefathers of most branches of modernday Judaism. This is forever perhaps most true for Orthodox Judaism. Let me quote an article I found on the Jerusalem Centre for Public Affairs:

Pharisaic Judaism held fast for nearly 1800 years and was almost unchallenged for some 1500. No longer a party within a larger framework, it became a framework itself. It was only with the coming of the modern epoch in the seventeenth century that the order which it imposed upon the Jewish people began to break down under the pressures of modernization. For some time, the only alternative to Pharisaic Judaism seemed to be assimilation. It was only with the rise of modern Jewish nationalism and, most particularly Zionism, that another alternative emerged.

Once Pharisaic Judaism lost its dominant position, the Pharisees once again became a camp, today known as Orthodoxy. It is no accident that Orthodoxy as a movement did not develop until the nineteenth century in response to the emancipationist movements. Up until that time, there was no need for a special framework for halakhic Jews as such. Even the divisions within the halakhic camp could be handled through traditional institutions.

Today the Pharisaic camp can be defined as consisting of Jews who see in Halakhah the central and unifying principle of Judaism. After a century or more of retreat, that camp is once again advancing. They have turned to the offensive after years of being on the defensive, and have now developed institutions that are trying to "convert the Jews." Their camp represents perhaps a quarter of the population of Israel and perhaps a fifth of world Jewry can be considered within it.

3. Kim is right that many verses of the Qu'ran can be read allegorically. In her opinion that's also how they should be read. As you know, nilsr, many Muslims do not agree with her. But as she pointed out herself, Islam isn't monolithic... I'll leave it up to you to guess what that means.

4. Kim is right that the gates of interpretation or ijtihad in traditional Islam is seen as "closed".

It's a bit complex, though, tafsir is also interpretation, but has several sources except of ijtihad - which means effort and is used about independent efforts by Muslim jurists (and others) to reach conclusions.

For Kim to be wanting tafsir to be reopened is somewhat odd. Tafsir has never been closed.

Many modernist Muslims, and indeed many Islamists, also call for the reopening of the gates of ijtihad. Ex-Christian has said that he wants it too. Through the times the demand has been made by many different Islamic scholars, representing different views.

I support those Muslims who want to reopen the gate of ijtihad and regard the dependance on medieval interpreters in mainstream Islam as a genuine problem. Strangely, even some of the worst nutcases within Islam agrees with me there.

I've posted a link to this post on the other thread, leaving Kim a chance to response.

I'm picturing Kim as a man.

Hi Gunnar,Oeyvind,Nilsr,ex-christian ,hansen et alias. Oh gunnar, i'm a fraulein :), i guess i'll never have the chance to become a mufti, but heh the catholics are just as intransigent. The premise that the princes of the church use to deny women the priesthood was that if jesus had wanted female priests he would have included females as his disciples. In the same line of logic, one should reject a polish pope, since Jesus did not have a polish pope in his circle of disciples..or for that matter an italian , or a french........and to make matters even more laughable all his disciples were married jewish men and circumcised to wit LOL.

Ex-christian..i noticed you lament the senless arson of muslim schools, out of curiosity do you feel revulsion at the demonic slaughtering of innocent russian school children by the chechen islamist terrorists?..or is that particular act of atrocity sanctioned by islam since they are slaughtering infidels anyway and the quran did give permission to make a ' wide slaughter and to instill fear into the hearts of the kaffiroon/infidels !!!"...just a passing thought of curiosity :). Also i noticed some of the islamists in the news have been comparing the arson of muslim mosques to Kristall Nacht. I really think that is like comparing apples and oranges. The jews of that time period were being used as a scape-goat by a fascist state, they were not agitators or engaging in violence of any sort. On the contrary an alarming % of muslims that settled in Holland were engaged in activities supporting violent jihad and also mobs of young muslim moroccan ( and other nationalities) hooligans were causing havoc and mayhem and even bodily injuries to their dutch host ..a classic case of the guests attacking the host and taking over the house ! To try to use the term "Kristall Nacht" is ludicrous and insulting to the memories of those that perish in nazi germany to say the list. Although not all muslims concur with the militant islamist agendae, there is a large enough population group within the islamic world that agressively seek to subjugate the world to Islam, Allah and the Shariah. The more pious they are , the more likely literal they are in interpreting the violent words of the quran and the more engaged in war, murder and mayhem they will be. In this respect Osama bin Ladin is the paragon of the pious muslim, whereas your next door neighbour who is western educated and profess that islam is a religion of peace and love and tolerance blah blah blah are really either l) ignorant of the quranic texts, 2) being politically correct and presenting the false face of Islam for western consumption or 3) engaging in taquiyyah ie religious dissimulation to confuse,confound and assuage a foe, so that the islamist can fight a good fight another day when the circumsstances are more favorable to his survival!! Many naive westerners are also unaware that in islam there is another devious concept called 'fardh' or obligations, which is further divided into l) general 'fardh' ( such as the 5x prayer, giving alms, fasting, making the hajj etc., etc.) and major 'fardh'( which is engaging in the militant branch of islamism, or fighting for the deen/religion physically or any other way as long as it furthers islam and leads to subjugation of the world to islam and allah. Technically then, your friendly neighbourhood muslims who are always telling you that islam is a perfectly friendly religion full of love, toleranc etc.. could be externally rejecting violence, but in his heart rejoicing in the successful slaughter of the infidel russian school children, or the successful liquidation of the infidel dutch gadfly/liberal film maker Theo vanGogh....additionally in a more sinister fashion , this friendly muslim neighbour may consciously or unconsciously be supporting the terrost and violent activities world wide by indirect means such as payment of the obligatory tithe/zakat, particularly if this tithe or portion thereof is clandestinely funneled off to various clandestine organization engaging in various nefarious activities ( and this has happened numerous times and probably still happening without leaving any paper trail simply because in the islamic world there is a parallel cash-based banking system). One other thing i want to point out, Holland is a multicultural country.....why is it that muslims are disproportionately engaged in acts of violence, murder and mayhem....why not sikhs, hindus, buddhists, taoists, jews, animists, pagans, wiccans, new agers, shintoists, christians orthodox or otherwise? why why why ???? limadha? limadha? li-madha?............Terrorism, violence, hate etc is the symptom...the root cause of the problem is the ideology/the religion/the interpretation of the violent quranic texts. To this end i refer you to the following site for an eye opening discussion:

http://www.islamreview.com/

After you read this site, you can understand why i was somewhat perturbed when i read in the blog , ex-christian so callously declaring that "...it is his right to kill you ...if you were to 'insult' Islam. Several years ago, i was engaged in a discussion of world religion with a muslim acquaintance and i indicated to him that buddhism is a gentle religion and would never resort to the sword to 'convert' anybody, because it is self-help 'religion'( actually psychophilosophy would be more appropiate a term_)...I was shocked when he sneered at me and pointedly told me that buddhists are weak and since they are not even people of the book/ahl aw naas-ul-kitab they deserved to be slaughtered unless they embrace islam because Islam is the only straight path/siraat-ul-mustaquil ...and Allah had ordered that those that do not believe should be dealth with harshly and put to death !....they you have it , all summed up in one breath , by this adherent of a religion of peace and tolerance. Islam is a 'meme' - a parasitic mental processes, a sort of mental virus that allows for itself to replicate in a susceptible host, apparently the psychodynamics of our friend mr. Ex-christian is such that this meme or psychopsychic virus/parasite has taken root and is replicating. If you consider this disease-model , then you can understand better why depending on the level of infection a person can commit heinous acts and atrocities in the name of the religion ( the meme that has infected him/her ):

http://home.btclick.com/scimah/memes.htm

pleae read the above link , you will be in for a shocker!

Muchisimas gracias/kamseh hamneeda/tack sa mycket

Kim Sook-Im

The premise that the princes of the church use to deny women the priesthood was that if jesus had wanted female priests he would have included females as his disciples. In the same line of logic, one should reject a polish pope, since Jesus did not have a polish pope in his circle of disciples..or for that matter an italian , or a french........and to make matters even more laughable all his disciples were married jewish men and circumcised to wit LOL

Your premise and logic are laughable. LOL. First of all, your logic is flawed. As you correctly point out, many of the previous popes were italian, but there were no italians in the original twelve. So, for your view of the logic to hold, only married men from Galilea should have been picked as popes. In this case, it would mean that the early church, who would best have known what the Master wanted, erred in picking the second pope from Tuscany, which is ridiculous.

No, far from showing that their reasoning is incorrect, this fact proves that this was not the reasoning used to exclude females as priests.

Your premise is that the priesthood is a position of superiority. The priesthood is not a badge of good-conduct. The priest acts in Persona-Christie, and since Jesus was male, preists are male. Females are not inferior, they just have a different role. For example, females are in many ways shown to be more blessed, since females were the first to see Him risen. The apostles would be martyred.

The reality is that there is no recent reasoning whatsoever on this issue. The church only reaffirms the tradition of Jesus and the early church.

Paul recommended that priests not take wives, since it would distract them from their mission. And the apostles all left their wives and families.

hi gunnar, it is not my premise, it is the church that is trying to use flawed logic, however you look at it , the abrahamic religions are patriarchal and inherently misogynist. Why the olden pharasees would open their prayers by thanking god that they were not made a women, that they were not gentiles etc. etc.....this very 'tradition' is perpetuated by the muslims.....hopefully you are not as apologistic for the despicable traditions of mullahIslam as you are for MullahCatholicism :)......but perhaps you are a priest ? or have aspiration to priesthood....for all we know God may be a big fat Lesbian Queen sitting up in the blue yonder ever so ready to knock the turbans off those chauvinistic mullahs of the abrahamic religions,in particular the islamic kind...and Gaia- mother earth would only be so willing to swallow them up !!!

Thank you,

Kim Sook-Im

ahh, a Gaian. That explains where you are coming from.

Øyvind, Bergen

''The Ahmadiyyas and the Qadianis are truly very liberal Muslims,''

I just want to correct one common mistake you always repeart, Qadianis are NOT Muslims, they are not allowed to visit the great holy cities of Mecca and Medina because they believe in Ahmad as a prophet who came after prophet Muhammad (pbuh ), doing so means they are no longer Muslims.

So please refrain from refering to them as muslims because they are NOT, they are Qadianis.

salaam alaykum ya ex-christian,

the ahmadiyyahs and quadiyanis are note-worthy and praise-worthy people attempting in a small way to defang mullahIslam of its venomous and noxious elements , its cultic-attributes and its sanctioned violence against 'unbelievers'for that any rational and peace-loving member of the Ummah/islamic community(if such a creature exists?LOL) should be thankful. At any rate i refer you to the following eye-opening essay by aidid safar;

http://www.free-minds.org/Arab_Conspiracy.html

Shukran laka,

Kim Sook-Im

Ex-C:

Yes, I should have mentioned that the Qadianis are considered to be heretics by mainstream Islam. In a way it's comparable to the way mainstream Christianity looks at the witnesses of Jehovah.

The witnesses are hardly persecuted, like Ahmadiyyas and Qadianis have experienced in some countries, though.

Øyvind

This only proves that what comes around, comes around, or you reap what you sow. The Dutch (and much of the West) have been tolerant of Islamic intolerance for years, now they pay the price. If the politicos and public leaders had taken action against the many hateful, unacceptable dogmas preached in the Mosques for decades, Van Vogh would still be alive and schools, mosques and churches would not have been attacked.

The Dutch and all of Europe had better develop a real intolerance for intolerance, not the PC version that excuses all non-Western cultures from criticism. The fact is Islam is basically contrary to the ideals of equality and human rights. Read the Quran - it is very clear that non-muslims and women, and other groups are to be second class citizens at best (or dead is alright too).

It is a fact that where Islam dominates, other religions, women, gays, jews, etc are oppressed and discriminated against. Muslims don't want to hear this, they prefer the PC version 'Islam means peace" that our leaders feed to the foolish public.

Holland and the rest of Europe had better deal with this now, because it will only get worse. I am very pessimistic about the ability of Muslims to accept Western ideals and still be honest Muslims. A look at Islamic sites, or many public forums, shows that there are only two kinds of Muslims: those that will kill you themselves (the so-called fundamentalists) and the ones that will let other Muslims kill you (our friend Ex-C) and then make excuses (the so-called moderates). What to do? I don't know, but the West had better do something - else the future will mean no freedoms, no rights, no pensions - there will be only misery, pain and death.

Enough bullshit.

"In the Muslim people the will to self-sacrifice does not go beyond the individual's naked instinct of self-preservation. Their apparently great sense of solidarity is based on the very primitive herd instinct that is seen in many other living creatures in this world. It is a noteworthy fact that the herd instinct leads to mutual support only as long as a common danger makes this seem useful or inevitable. The same pack of wolves which has just fallen on its prey together disintegrates, when hunger abates, into its individual beasts …

It is similar with the Muslim. His sense of sacrifice is only apparent. It exists only as long as the existence of the individual makes it absolutely necessary. However, as soon as the common enemy is conquered, the danger threatening all averted and the booty hidden, the apparent harmony of the Muslims among themselves ceases, again making way for their old causal tendencies. The Muslim is only united when a common danger forces him to be or a common booty entices him; if these two grounds are lacking, the qualities of the crassest egoism come into their own, and in the twinkling of an eye the united people turns into a horde of rats, fighting bloodily among themselves …

If the Islamists were alone in this world, … they would try to get ahead of one another in hate-filled struggle and exterminate one another, in so far as the absolute absence of all sense of self-sacrifice, expressing itself in their cowardice, did not turn battle into comedy here too.

So it is absolutely wrong to infer any ideal sense of sacrifice in Muslims from the fact that they stand together in struggle, or, better expressed, in the plundering of their fellow men.

Here again the Muslim is led by nothing but the naked egoism of the individual."

What a load of bullshit

Look at what the BARBARIC AMERICANS did in one of Falluja mosques:

VIDEO: KILLING UNARMED MUSLIM CIVILIAN INSIDE A MOSQUE:

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/files/specials/videolineups/video_iframe.html?videoName=1115fallujah_killing&videoHeadline=U.S.%20to%20Probe%20Shooting%20of%20Wounded%20Iraqi

Not to foget the 100,000 + Muslims killed so far in Iraq.

Next time an american PIG is beheaded, dont shout Islamic terrorism !

Bloody hell, the barbarians invade the Muslim land, torture muslims, bomb muslims to death and then complain about Muslim terrorism !!

"I wish the Americans had come here the very first day and not waited eight months," he said, trembling. Nearby, a mosque courtyard had been used as a weapons store by the militants."

"But we were happy you did what you did because Fallujah had been suffocated by the Mujahidin. Anyone considered suspicious would be slaughtered. We would see unknown corpses around the city all the time."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-1359782_1,00.html

A citizen of Fallujah speaks - any comments EX-C ?

Via www.filtrat.dk

Pardon me, Ex-C, but that's bullshit. For starters, the guys in the mosque were wounded because they were shooting at American troops. The soldier who shot him had been shot in the face the day before, and on the same day, this Marine's unit lost a guy when a booby trapped corpse exploded on them as they were going to tend to it. So when one of the apparently dead insurgents suddenly moved, it's no surprise that the Marine shot him.

Ex-C:

Your link does not work. However, the variant of the Story Jeff gives above and the variant of for instance the Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz seems to differ somewhat. Maybe Jeff has added a bit of spin?

Ha'aretz writes:

The Iraqi was one of five wounded left in the mosque after Marines fought their way through the area on Friday and Saturday. A pool report by an NBC correspondent Kevin Sites said the mosque had been used by insurgents to attack U.S. forces, who stormed it, killing 10 militants and wounding the five.

A second group of Marines entered the mosque on Saturday after reports it had been reoccupied. Footage from the embedded television crew showed the five still in the mosque, although several appeared to be already close to death, Sites said.

He said a Marine noticed one prisoner was still breathing.

"The Marine then raises his rifle and fires into the man's head. The pictures are too graphic for us to broadcast," Sites said.

Rights group Amnesty International said on Monday that both sides in the Fallujah fighting had broken the rules governing the rules of war protecting civilians and wounded combatants.

Øyvind

Jeff, USA

''Pardon me, Ex-C, but that's bullshit. For starters, the guys in the mosque were wounded because they were shooting at American troops. ''

That is bullshit, the innocent muslims in the mosque were NOT armed, look at the video again, I challange you to show me one piece of arm with them !

Ex-C:

Every accound I've seen has said they were armed originally, ex-C. However, the American forces had disarmed them, and the killing of the unarmed (but hardly civilian) man is illegal if the reports I have seen are correct.

Øyvind

Not only the Barbaric American terrorists are leveling Falluja to the ground, they are barring aid from reaching the hungry !

Aid convoy barred from 'starving' Falluja

An aid convoy has been forced to turn back from the beleaguered city of Falluja as more evidence emerged of a mounting humanitarian crisis on the eighth day of a US offensive to crush resistance forces.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/A800AA57-C2A4-47FB-9BB5-6D6E1B9C3C22.htm

WHO GAVE THOSE BARBARIANS THE RIGHT TO BE IN OUR MUSLIM LAND IN THE FIRST PLACE ???

Øyvind:

I dont want to hear any bullshit about Muslims fighting extremists and stoping terrorism, screw all this shit, my brothers and sisters are being slaughtered in their thousands while some rotten scumbags are complaining about muslim terrorism !

Do you understand now why more and more Muslims will become Jihadists and why the 'evil empire' will never ever be safe ??

It is action and reaction.

Øyvind:

Here is a considerably more detailed account.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041116/ap_on_re_us/marine_shooting

Ex-C:

That is bullshit, the innocent muslims in the mosque were NOT armed, look at the video again, I challange you to show me one piece of arm with them !

They had already been disarmed, however there were reports that the mosque had been retaken by insurgents. That is why the Marines returned. They had no idea if these guys had been rigged with bombs or what.

If we are so bad, Ex-C, why did we even release this video to begin with? Why do we prosecute our own men for war crimes? Why do we give medical treatment to the guys who are trying to kill our soldiers (and even our civilians)? No doubt there have been plenty of wrongs on both sides, but as you're so willing to paint all Americans with one brush, for example, don't be surprised when Westerners paint all Muslims with one brush. You're right - for every action, there is a reaction.

"WHO GAVE THOSE BARBARIANS THE RIGHT TO BE IN OUR MUSLIM LAND IN THE FIRST PLACE ???"

You're supposed to be Swedish or Finnish or some damn thing, so Iraq is most definitely _not_ your Muslim land. Iraq belongs to Iraqis and sorry, but but they're not all Muslims. The majority is Muslim but a Christian Iraqi has more right to Iraq then you do, just because you share a religion with the majority there.

Michael Farris

''"WHO GAVE THOSE BARBARIANS THE RIGHT TO BE IN OUR MUSLIM LAND IN THE FIRST PLACE ???"

You're supposed to be Swedish or Finnish or some damn thing, so Iraq is most definitely _not_ your Muslim land.''

I dont blame you, you are ignorant of Islam, I advice you to go and read about the meaning of 'Ummah' in Islam and then come back here for more lessons.

Do you understand now why more and more Muslims will become Jihadists and why the 'evil empire' will never ever be safe?

I don't think of the United States as an 'evil empire', otherwise I have understood this for a long time, ex-C.

However, I think that the United States has no choice but entering Fallujah. The city has been a centre not only for those anti-American insurgents that use means considered legitime by International law. It has also been used and partly controlled by terrorists willing to use kidnappings and terrorist bomb attacks in their fight for 'liberating' Iraq.

I still think going into Iraq was a major mistake by the States, especially strategically in their War on Terror, but the mistake is done and the fight against genuine terrorists is legitime.

Once more, ex-C, I want to ask you: What movements do you find worthy of support in Iraq?

Øyvind

Jeff, USA

''Ex-C:

''They had already been disarmed, however there were reports that the mosque had been retaken by insurgents. That is why the Marines returned. They had no idea if these guys had been rigged with bombs or what.''

You see the contradiction here ! they ' disarmed ' them after they wounded them but they did not treat the wounded or took them ' prisoners' they left them to bleed for the next day so the next marine will come and ' finish ' them off !

GIVE ME A BREAK !

those people were normal people in the mosque praying the EID PRAYER ( after ramadan ), the mosque was attacked by the American barbarians and they were wounded, they were left to bleed for 2 days until the other barbarians arrived.

''If we are so bad, Ex-C, why did we even release this video to begin with?''

it was not the barbaric american army who released it, it was commercial station, it sells to show such things.

This is not the first time you barbarians commit WAR CRIMES.

Ex Christian,

I really hesitate to discuss this issue, but I've got a few more minutes here before I have to go, so I'm going to give it a try. In the days during this campaign, there have been some chilling incidents. These are its fruits:

There have been four confirmed reports of men coming into the open pretending to surrender, and then blowing themselves up. All but one of these caused casualties (though no deaths that I have heard of)among American troops, as well as Iraqi Guardsmen. Additionally there have been numerous reports of men coming out to surrender who then pull weapons from beneath their cloaks and commence firing. There have been horrors and atrocities uncovered from within the city that reduce ones ability to imagine human ugliness to tatters.

All this has been discovered, and been going on...in what is also a deadly live combat area.

I say all this to make the point, that while one can debate whether it was wrong to have finally decided to take Fallujah, one is hard pressed to credibly argue that the brutality that has occurred there is an American domain and that all the "victims" are, as you seem to fancifully imply.... merely "innocent Muslims".

Be serious and don't debase yourself by allowing yourself to be so easily cast as an absolutist devotee. You come across then as a dancing automoton, in addition to just plain silly.

I have no doubt that there is a lot of what we might in our comfort, smugly call "ugliness" occurring on the part of US forces and Iraqi guardsmen. That is the Pandora's box that the Ruthless always open when they engage in terror and mayhem. The idea behind it is that ruthlessness is power because one has decoupled any affirmation of even basic morality... to a "vision". This works because those who either suffer beneath it, or stand to oppose it realize that there is no mercy, or even humanity to be found in the vortex of the mayhem. In fact, those who are "ruled" beneath this "Ruthless Hatred", know that their life and the lives of those they love aren't worth spit, unless they do exactly what they are told. This is why it is a seductive power for evil men... to be ruthless.

The downside for those who stand against them is that its ferocity and nihilism is contagious. When decent men see enough life wasted, they begin to lose even the tiniest shreds of hope for the redemption of their enemies. That quickly reduces them to the level of murderousness of their enemies. The difference between human beings and other human beings in such circumstances becomes academic at best. Command and Control from the big picture is the only place where one can try... to maintain a shred of civilization.

This Marine.... after days of this mayhem... may very well have blown away an unarmed and wounded insurgent, but such mayhem has been reaped by a madness that is little more than naked nihilism. These are the things that will happen when all moorings to any conventions or behavioural norms are abrogated... as they have been by the Ex-Baathists/Fedayeen/Al-Queda/Syrian thugs in Fallujah and elsewhere in Iraq.

In any case... you can note for the record if it matters to you, that if indeed the man in the mosque were not an insurgent, and was in some way a "civilian"... then here's the clincher.

That Marine will be going to jail.

Isn't that strange?

KM

Ex-C:

You see the contradiction here ! they ' disarmed ' them after they wounded them but they did not treat the wounded or took them ' prisoners' they left them to bleed for the next day so the next marine will come and ' finish ' them off !

GIVE ME A BREAK !

The previous Marine unit that took the mosque defeated these guys, then treated them and disarmed them, and went out to press on to take Fallujah.

The following day, this unit comes along because they got a report that the mosque had been recaptured by insurgents. This guy, as I said, had been shot previously, was nervous, and flew off the handle.

those people were normal people in the mosque praying the EID PRAYER ( after ramadan ), the mosque was attacked by the American barbarians and they were wounded, they were left to bleed for 2 days until the other barbarians arrived.

Do you have a source for this claim?

it was not the barbaric american army who released it, it was commercial station, it sells to show such things.

This is not the first time you barbarians commit WAR CRIMES.

I am confused. All Americans are barbarians, even thogh we will show controverisal things that may put us in a bad light? Or the American army is barbaric? Or... what?

Øyvind, Bergen

''I don't think of the United States as an 'evil empire', otherwise I have understood this for a long time, ex-C.''

America is indeed EVIL EMPIRE, its evil touched nearly every corner of this earth from Japan to Korea to Vietnam to Chile to Palestine to Central America...etc

The New Evil Empire
America has become what Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union used to be
By John Kaminski

http://www.rense.com/general49/evil.htm

''However, I think that the United States has no choice but entering Fallujah. The city has been a centre not only for those anti-American insurgents that use means considered legitime by International law. It has also been used and partly controlled by terrorists willing to use kidnappings and terrorist bomb attacks in their fight for 'liberating' Iraq.''

And in the process killing thousands of innocent Muslims ?? and when muslims respond back, you shout MUSLIM TERRORISM !!!

''I still think going into Iraq was a major mistake by the States, especially strategically in their War on Terror, but the mistake is done and the fight against genuine terrorists is legitime. ''

Can we say the same things about these jihadists ? they also think the fights against genuine terrorists ( the USA ) is legitimate !

''Once more, ex-C, I want to ask you: What movements do you find worthy of support in Iraq?

Every one and every movement that fight the barbaric American terrorists and those who cooperate with them.

http://www.albasrah.net/moqawama/english/iraqi_resistance.htm

Jeff, USA

''The previous Marine unit that took the mosque defeated these guys, then treated them and disarmed them, and went out to press on to take Fallujah.''

No they did NOT, they did not take the mosque, the shot at the mosque and killed some innocent worshipers inside.

The next day the other barbaric marines arrived to ' finish' the job.

''those people were normal people in the mosque praying the EID PRAYER ( after ramadan ), the mosque was attacked by the American barbarians and they were wounded, they were left to bleed for 2 days until the other barbarians arrived.

Do you have a source for this claim?''

Here is one but it is in arabic but there is interesting picture inside:

http://www.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/2888777A-4227-4C0F-A707-2F0D5EAD5C52.htm

Al jazeera reported based on the testimony of one of the wounded who was inside that the american army start firing at the mosque without provocation and that he was laying wounded from yesterday !

''I am confused. All Americans are barbarians, even thogh we will show controverisal things that may put us in a bad light? Or the American army is barbaric? Or... what?''

NO, I am not like the mindless Islamophobes to claim all Americans are barbarians, I am sure many are appalled to what their army is doing in Iraq, but those 58 million Americans who voted for Bush are certainly barbarians because they gave Bush their approval for the war crimes he is committing in Iraq.

Ex-C, the day I go to you for religious instruction is the day hell freezes over.

(and I do find your repeated assertions that Muslims should have greater rights than Muslims to be revealing, I'm not sure of what exactly, but revealing nonetheless)

sorry, Iraqi Christians, some Muslim in Finland says the country doesn't belong to you.

I'll also mention that I have a couple of (pretty moderate Moslem) Iraqi co-workers/friends who could care less what happens to Fallujah because they see it as Saddam's base and a Baathist stronghold. I'm not as radical as they are on that front but I understand that hardcore Saddam supporters don't have their sympathies. Perhaps you should take a trip to Sweden and discuss the issue with some of the Iraqis who fled to Sweden from there.

Here is a LIVE debate with a civilian inside falluja, his name is IBRAHIM and he is a driver:

http://www.islamonline.net/livedialogue/english/browse.asp?hGuestID=fq276O

Look how some people around the world see falluja:

Name: Ante - Croatia (Hrvatska)
Profession economist

I am from one small European country, and I just want to say you this: Falluja and it's ipeole are one of the braviest in human history: the proof that human's proud is impossible to kill. There is a grafiti in my town "Long live Iraqi resistance" and "Long live Falluja". People in Croatia are not Muslims(we have just about few percent Muslims) but they can recognize when someone is fighting for homeland, home and freedom. I am Christian, A Catholic and I can tell You that every true Christian is on the side of Iraqi peole and resistance and against devil-inspirated bush killers. I know about killing of Fallujans and I assure You that those killed by americans are in paradise, and I don't want to know what God will do with killers of innopcent people. I pray for Falluja and I'll pray more. God bless You, your family, your town and your homeland, Ibrahim.

READ MORE HERE:

http://www.islamonline.net/livedialogue/english/browse.asp?hGuestID=fq276O

"NO, I am not like the mindless Islamophobes to claim all Americans are barbarians, I am sure many are appalled to what their army is doing in Iraq, but those 58 million Americans who voted for Bush are certainly barbarians because they gave Bush their approval for the war crimes he is committing in Iraq." EX-C

No you are a mindless Bushphobe and still have problems hiding your hate to America.

Well these insurgents were terrorizing and killing the general population in Iraq and were an obstacle to the democratic election i Iraq ( and I Remember you as saying something like moslems loves democracy ) and you back em up without preference.

If this soldier done anything wrong I hope he get sentenced - he won´t be celebrated as a martyr or hero for sure.

As for most of the people in Fallujah Im sure they happy that these mujahedins won´t be in charge anymore so that law and order, water and electricity can be restored and the city rebuild.

If the iraqis don´t like the American presence they should take it easy and vote for someone who would ask the Americans to leave if it´s really so important.

Michael Farris

''Ex-C, the day I go to you for religious instruction is the day hell freezes over. ''

I am flatterd ! Thank you :)

''sorry, Iraqi Christians, some Muslim in Finland says the country doesn't belong to you.''

Oh please ! dont be pathetic, I never said such thing, I said Iraq is MUSLIM land since 90% of its population are Muslims.

Iraqi christians have the same right to Iraq as their Muslim counterparts.

But it is the duty of every muslim all over the world to fight for Iraq Liberation, this right is sanctioned by INTERNATIONAL LAW.

''I'll also mention that I have a couple of (pretty moderate Moslem) Iraqi co-workers/friends who could care less what happens to Fallujah because they see it as Saddam's base and a Baathist stronghold. I'm not as radical as they are on that front but I understand that hardcore Saddam supporters don't have their sympathies.''

Loooooool ! are you still on about Saddam's Supporters ? I thought this recycled American LIE has died and buried by the Iraqi resistance fighting all over Iraq ?

No nation and no people will accept to see their land under occupation, even the Americans fought to be liberated from the British.

'' Perhaps you should take a trip to Sweden and discuss the issue with some of the Iraqis who fled to Sweden from there.''

Or perhaps you should take a trip to one of the refugee camps outside falluja to see the scale of the American barbarity.

Here is EYE WITNESS ACCOUNT:

http://www.islamonline.net/livedialogue/english/browse.asp?hGuestID=fq276O

So Ex - C the "freedom fighters" of Iraq has killed Margaret Hassan it appears. She was a moslem as far I heard - a convert working to help the Iraqi people.

I could express my feelings too - but I want to take some deep breaths first.

"For the past 30 years, Margaret worked tirelessly for the Iraqi people.

"Margaret had only good will towards everyone. She had no prejudice against any creed. She dedicated her whole life to working for the poor and vulnerable, helping those who had no one else.""

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/11/16/iraq.hassan/index.html

Those who did kill Mrs Hasan are as animals as the Americans who are killing the Muslims in Iraq.

What a mess the Americans have made of Iraq ?

The war has cost a lot of Iraqis their life but so would Saddam Huseeins regime followed by Uday.

For the very same reason that it has increased the hate in the world towards us I almost find that we should never have invaded Iraq but left you with Saddam - lifted the sanctions. But Saddam would have undertaken production of WMD once again and eventually hand those to AL - Queda.

We could and cannot create democracy in Iraq without civilian casualties - and we do have cruel, malicious people among our ranks too - the idiots in Abu gharib eg. "that cost us the war" as one pentagon spokesman said. And not only that - for each cruel malicious person in our ranks there are many young "kids" hardly even recruited before send to Iraq, in over their head, almost shitting in their pants.
The American military in particular need better strategies for urban combat among civilians, different training and more specialized gear no doubt. The following of normal warfare doctrines such as the use of extensive airstrikes and dropping of cluster bombs should be duely criticized. These weapons are not only illegal in the case of cluster bombs but certainly don´t belong in populated areas.
But the need to go into Fallujah was still there not only was it a operation center for terrorists, it was a dictatorship under their rule where democratic elections would not be possible, police was not allowed to operate. And these terrorists are killing more Iraqis than the US is under "normal" circumstances where the US is not performing an offensive like Fallujah.

If all cities or most can hold elections the Iraqi people has a chance to vote for whomever they like and who will run for election soon, and can if they want effectively run us out - tell our troops to go home.

The actions of these terrorist spell they have no interest in a democratic vote and are doing nothing but making life harder for the ordinary Iraqi.

@ RSN | 2004-11-12 23:41
«There was one incidence of violence against a Muslim right after 9/11, down in Texas, I believe. A man went to a convenience store operated by an Arab, and shot him dead.»

@ Gill Doyle, California | 2004-11-12 23:48
«I remember hearing about a Sikh who was shot dead»

As far as i remember it was more a indian Sikh too. That just show us how this murderer was a prick and an ignorant.

@ RSN | 2004-11-12 23:41
«That's right, a Christian American got capital punishment for murdering a Muslim.

That helped to send the right message.»

Which is the bottom of your thought behind what seems to be a cynical irony? What will have been the good message to be sent according to you?

Best regards,
Sensi

«So when one of the apparently dead insurgents suddenly moved, it's no surprise that the Marine shot him.»

This is false: he murdered him, there is no any doubt. This is a war crime, you can try to understand that act, but you can't deny it.

Best regards,
Sensi

«For the very same reason that it has increased the hate in the world towards us I almost find that we should never have invaded Iraq but left you with Saddam - lifted the sanctions. But Saddam would have undertaken production of WMD once again and eventually hand those to AL - Queda»

He never had real WMD.
What would have been better it is that, once again, the USA's CIA did not set up him in place in 1963 :)

Best regards,
Sensi

I see old Salahudin (now calling himself "Ex-Christian) is still at it, with his library of canned quotes and "expert" site references. Where does he find the time for all this? Does he work? Another Muslim Welfare Warrior?

As I have said before, Muslims cannot accept equality and Islam is contrary to human rights. Period.

Anyway, I just wanted to call your attention to a post from Instapundit about wife abuse and Islam. The original reference is: http:// www.city-journal.org/html/eon_11_15_04td.html

Calling attention to this serious problem was Van Gogh original sin, as we know. I guess Muslims believe that beating women is OK, talking about it is bad. Well, the Quoran says beating your wife is necessary, doesn't it Salahudin? In fact the only Muslim woman's shelter in the US (in Atlanta) had to be closed because of the violence of Muslim men toward the staff).

Some people have no shame. Islam is a religion of violence, pain and suffering, built upon lies and stupid dreams.

Got to work... Bye

Sensi writes: "He never had real WMD.
What would have been better it is that, once again, the USA's CIA did not set up him in place in 1963 :)"

Sensi -- the majority of people in your country and in much of Western Europe opposed America's forcibly removing Saddam Hussein from power. Though I have the impression that you think he should never have come to power, you would have preferred, I guess, that he not be removed from power. Is that right?

America is fighting now for a democratic Iraq. Elections will be held in January if Baathist/islamist insurgents do not prevent that happening. Can you tell me: do Frenchmen hope that the Iraqi elections will be a success, and do they hope that those elections will lead to a prosperous and democratic Iraq?

hello friends,

here are two articles discussing the 'stockholm syndrome ' which open societies are suffering with regards to islamism.

these articles will shock and open your eyes.

http://www.alexandredelvalle.com/publications.php?id_art=93

and

http://www.alexandredelvalle.com/publications.php?id_art=125

forward article to friends

Thanks / gracias

Kim

dear friends,

here is the link to a free e-book

死亡的先知 PROPHET OF DOOM نبيّ الموت

prophète de la mort

by Craig Winn

http://www.prophetofdoom.net/

For your sanity i strongly urge you to read or browse through the content...at least read the short introduction!!! It will be a shocker and hopefully wakes everyone up from their complacency. Do f/ward it to friends.

Thanks

since my blog is mostly in dutch I think I'll, for the sake of conversation, duplicate my first post to this blog from the long and dead thread I am nevertheless quoting from, to wit, one where Ex-Christian answers the following question:

''Why, if men and women are equal under islam, can men marry up to four women while a woman can only marry one man?''

Because if woman has many husbands and if she got pregnant, you cant know who is the father, GOT IT ? I thought it will be very easy for you to figure that out !
-----------------
my reponse: ahaaa, and why/where/to whom is fatherhood ever that important? In places which due to selfdefeating success matrilinial societies of nurturing extended families with high levels of genderintegration and tender intimacy, in other words where overpopulation brings the 'work' of elbowpower to the fore, in a word patrism. This vicious circle will worsen climates, drive genders apart, initiate specialization, erosion, migration and great dependence on hierarchy and violence further worsening climates and aggravating desertification, no need to decide between/for any of the three stage monotheisms in this respect since they are truly equal, just not concommitant but consecutive.

Take a breath and a step back from the o so pressing immediate present and look at the rise and fall of civilizations; those arising in the most fertile neighbourhoods of our earthly clod had a change to go all the way down this spiral of degeneracy and many of them more than once dragging neighbouring peoples into 'Mitleidenschaft'.

There you have it, evolutionary tragedy in a nutshell. Sound counsel? Cheap. Abandon all holy books, raise compost to the level of reverence commanding it would be were it not amorphously but anthropomorphably potent, then begin the fight to push back manmade desert into the realm of sterile singularity from whence it was delved by brain fermenting sexually purity advocates like you.

This is all I can do by way of plea for help to follow my own counsel which I refuse to do alone or in a too small community in a too hostile world. ... .or wait, I'll offer some corroboration: http://hyperstition.abstractdynamics.org/archives/004377.html#comments follow the saharasia link there.

Polemics as to which side of the mental and emotional fence is the righter or wronger do nothing but polarize and escalate allround sorry situations to the exact extent this common man rock beast and plant uniting plight is ignored; most people are stuck with emphasizing either possesion or lack of privilege with not a thought for biospherical equity, let alone the humble and if efforts to feed into it take place, all the better ongoing beginnings of comfort, distraction and 'embeddiment' from its diversity.

ps: did anybody ever notice the eery resemblance of this blog's content and ways of being (posterwise anyway, repeat offenders and the like) to http://vancouver.indymedia.org (victim of its own popularity with freeriders, spammers and folks with various polarized and polarizing obsessions)????

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Heretics' almanac: Waking up xenophobia in the Low Countries, November 17, 2004 02:19 PM

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