Mosque put on fire in Helden, Holland.

This has gone so far, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

I find it interesting that you're more upset about vandalism against a building (which I agree is terrible and should stop) than you were about the murder that set this whole chain of violence off.

You didn't even try to hide your contempt for the victim (rationalizing away his murder as the understandable reaction of moslems enduring insults) but you're driven to unambiguous rage over some property damage?????

What's wrong with this picture.

My own opinion: they should lock up the scum that burned the mosque for a long, long time. But I'm less bothered by this than by murder for political/religious reasons (not all that much less, but less).

In one way I fully agree with you, Michael.

I'm very worried about the rising anti-Islamic extremism, though. The extremism from violent Islamists is an extremism where the ideas, at least, are from outside. The extremism that makes people put fire to mosque is an extremism from within.

I think the first kind of extremism is capable of attacking our society, conducting terroracts and murders. The second kind of extremism, however, is capable of making our society drop the the ideas that make it worth defending.

Øyvind

I agree about the internal/external distinction to some degree, but human nature is human nature, regardless of religion and nationality. Culture can accentuate or de-emphasize certain aspects of human nature, but it can't really change it. The Dutch may seem like easy-going tolerant folks most of the time, but they have the same darkside as does all humanity.

You can't have a rise in fundamentalism and extremism on one side only. That is, extremism begets more extremism, so that a rising tide of funamentalist islamic thought in western europe (even among a small minority if that minority is visible enough) is going to create a reactionary anti-islamic backlash just as surely as night follows day. (and that's going to harden extremist islamic thought, it's as predictable as gravity, the human relations equivalent of physics).

The quickest and surest way of bringing down the temperature all around is for the side that introduced the extremism to tone things down before things get out of control. I'd like to see more Dutch Moslem spokesmen expressing loyalty to their country, respect for its culture fondness for its language etc. I've yet to see much of that but I don't really read Dutch (I can puzzle some simple things out since I can read German, but it's mostly too much work for too little gain).

It's possible that the cultural differences mean people are talking past each other (and wondering why the other side is being so pig-headed). Most of the Moslem public dialogue since this whole sorry story started have been about Islam (Islam is vrede, etc.) when that's not what the Dutch want to hear. "Why are those people attacking us? We're their countrymen and we love this country." would go a long way to calming things down. And ime the Dutch are so out of touch with traditional ideas of openly expressed patriotism (just not the Dtuch way to make a big deal of it, which doesn't mean it's not there). That they're not entirely aware of what it is they want to hear.

Many Dutch Muslim organizations have, thankfully, done exactly what you want them too. Directly following the murder on Theo van Gogh a common statement was issued. It's found in Dutch here.

I don't have time to translate it all now, but amongst other things it says that the murder of van Gogh harms everyone in the Netherlands, that it is an attack on the freedom of expression, the freedom of religion and "the freedom that makes it possible for all of us to live in this country".

It's signed by numerous prominent Dutch Muslims.

Øyvind

I'm very upset because dutch people are well known to be tolerant but now i'm disapointed to see these violences happened in holland. I think all of what is happen show that immigrant are not really integrate into holland society and there is kind of racism from dutch toward immigrant specialy from muslim countries. this murder just show racism in some dutch because why people didn't burnt green party buildings when they found Pim Fortuyn murder (he was a member of green party) ?

zigourat: "all of what is happen show that immigrant are not really integrate into holland society and there is kind of racism from dutch toward immigrant specialy from muslim countries"

It's important to know why some immigrants don't integrate. Did they arrive and decide to not integrate? or did Dutch people not want them to integrate? I don't know the answer for sure but I think both sides have some blame.
I do think some integration is necessary for immigrants and I think if they don't want to integrate they should find somewhere else to live.

I believe one account where Dutch people thought immigrants would naturally integrate, but they didn't really. And since they did not express how angry they were about that for a long time (trying to be tolerant) when Dutch people did start to express it they sound angrier than they thought they were.

The question is now, will more Moslem immigrants choose to integrate or will they try to stay separate from non-Moslem Dutch people? And if they choose the latter, then where will they go?

Michael Farris asks :"what's wrong with this picture?"....when inquiring into the somewhat muddled mind of a poster. The flagrant contradictions you've pointed out are what happens when hair-trigger righteousness replaces critical thought. Murder is OK; fire-bombing a building, though immoral, IS THE crime, however.

It's all about support for the "cause", a support that has, as its primary pre-requisite, a singular ability to ape normalcy whilst in a deep socio-pathic state. It,s about a diseased spirituality devoid of right and wrong, devoid of any transcendance, and anchored to an obsessive/compulsive "treadmill of purity"

If we're to smash the rose-tinted glasses of the cause, then the cadence, the regularity and reliability of the treadmill has to be interrupted and impeded ( many ways to procede, here!)so as to create a window allowing conciousness to re-emerge. Conciousness is to the cause what holy water is to satan.

The best tools to achieve this? Plain old fun and laughter!!

Ex-Muslim, all religions have two (at least!) voices.

One very good thing about Islamic practice in many countries is that it actually represents a moderation of traditional social practice (hard to believe, but ....)
Another good thing, is that it acts as a sort of ur-civil society (which these countries have never had). It's hard for westerners to fully understand how important the ingroup (extended family) is in many parts of the world and the apathy/antipathy with which the outgroup (the rest of society) is regarded. In some of these countries, Islam provides a way to establish some basic level of social trust, and thus makes cooperation possible with those not bound by familial ties.

Of course, most of Europe (except parts of the extreme south and east) already have fully functioning civil societies so Islam doesn't offer that and to the extent it offers its followers (immigrants) that, it means they're not participating in the wider civil society but in a smaller, competing, and not thriving, one.

I know almost nothing of Islamic theology (not a topic of interest to me since the capacity for religious faith is not part of my makeup) but one thing I've read (don't remember where) in the stories of some western converts that Islam tends to appeal to those who aren't much interested in shades of gray and who like the idea of a disciplined lifestyle (in addition to whatever they find theologically appealing in it). In Muslim majority cultures, there are all sorts of ways and levels of accomodating Islamic practice, but western converts do tend to form a profile.

Michael Farris: "The capacity for true religious faith is not part of my make-up". Of course it is, Michael! Don't sell youself short!!

To be honest, there really isn't a lot of theology in Islam, nor is there much spirituality, nor is there a transcendant morality such as we find in "true" religions. In fact, when you strip away the theological pretensions of muslims you're basically left with the ethics of a desert brigand, nothing more. Hence the kidnappings, the beheadings, the extortion, the theft, the gratuitous violence, the blackmail and the rape....all par for the course, and NOT at all exceptional!

Islamic morality has little to do with right and wrong, as the behavior of 'pious' muslims often attest. It's all about regular mind-numbing rituals and repetition. One doesn't do good deeds ( although it IS allowed) to enter heaven, rather one "chalks" up points in order to gain paradise. Balance sheet salvation!

My personal view is that radical Islam can be defeated, not through intensified secularism, but rather through the re-introduction of basic principles of the Judeo-Christian theology into the primary and secondary school curriculum.

Trust me, I'm not at all a Christian fanatic. What such a re-introduction will achieve is a kind of innoculation against more virulent strains of religious fundamentalism. A successful society needs to feel that it is somehow ordained by God. This divine sanction should serve only as a loose inspiration when setting the tone of morality and ethics, and NOT as some sort of iron-clad literally interpreted handbook. Let's face it, Michael, had such a "pre-emptive" strike ability been in place a couple of decades ago at least one poster here would've been spared a great deal of future misery.

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