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2005: 12 | 11 | 10 | 09 | 08 | 07 | 06 | 05 | 04 | 03 | 02 | 01
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Open thread: Islam
For comments, discussions and news regarding Islam that are off-topic elsewhere.
Geronimo, USA | 2005-01-17 22:45 |
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From the "Scotland on Sunday", Jan 16 edition. A recent report from the CIA is predicting the European Union will face break-up within 15 years unless it radically reforms its ailing welfare systems. Key factors to its economic decline is the EU’s ageing population. The EU is also set for a looming demographic crisis because of a drop in birth rates and increased longevity, with devastating economic consequences. The report says: "Either European countries adapt their workforces, reform their social welfare, education and tax systems, and accommodate growing immigrant populations (chiefly from Muslim countries) or they face a period of protracted economic starvation." As a result of the increased immigration, the report predicts that Europe’s Muslim population is set to increase from around 13% today to between 22% and 37% of the population by 2025, potentially triggering tensions. Russia also borders an "unstable region" in the Caucasus and Central Asia, "the effects of which Muslim extremism, terrorism and endemic conflict - are likely to continue spilling over into Russia". The report also forecasts that by 2020 China’s gross domestic product will exceed that of individual western economic powers except for the US. India’s GDP will have overtaken or be overtaking European economies. It would appear the cancer of Islam is growing at a steady pace on a worldwide scale and the “close my eyes and hope it will go away” approach could eventually spell doom for western civilization. This battle was fought, but not necessarily won, by Ferdinand of Aragon (1452-1516) and Isabella of Castile in Spain during the 15th century. I’m certainly not suggesting a 21st-century Inquisition, but I might suggest better understanding of our Christian roots may shed some light on how to survive. This battle CAN NOT be fought and won with the traditional implements of war. We are fighting a similar battle in the USA, and the United Nations will be about as helpful as spitting in the wind...if you get my drift. It may not be news to our European friends, but US citizens want out of the UN in numbers that are staggering. When it all said and done, the liberal press will a great deal of egg on its face for not keeping you informed. My suggestion is each European country should remain a sovereign nation and limit the concessions imposed by membership in the EU to as few as possible. A common currency might be an attractive concession, but it must be backed up by something other than a promise. There has never been much trust between the countries of Europe...hence they remained sovereign. The UN has never been much help, so why would a similar EU be any different? Follow the money. Who stands to benefit the most from this union? Geronimo, USA Totoro, U.S. | 2005-01-18 04:47 | Link Geronimo . . . Four Christians were murdered yesterday in New Jersey in a particularly brutal way--with lots of blood flowing. The "liberal press" has barely mentioned this outrage. As you said, this cancer of Islam is growing at a steady pace. Europeans, Americans, and others would be wise to wake up now, before it is too late to do something about the potential for Islamic violence and thought-control. Kim Sook-Im,US | 2005-01-18 16:02 | Link Hola! Totoro et alias, Here is an interesting article on the secret muslim brotherhood in America...Islam is a cult..it's manifesto is to annihilate or convert non cult members, denigration of women and violence...all under the veneer of 'religion' The roots of islam explains this. Also many in the west does not know about how hinduism/ancient vedic india/bharaat and the arabs and islam are related and how Mohammad in his megalomania suppressed and destroyed the vedic influence in arabia. The people of preIslamic arabia enjoyed a high culture in which women were equals ( they worshipped Goddesses: Alla, al manaat(moon-goddess, german: monat=month,moon, aryanic roots,sanscritic roots,al Uzza /Oorja ). Al-Lat=Alla. The black stone in the Kaaba is the ShivaLingam of Shiva. The word Kaaba is a corruption of the sanscritic Garbha ( Garba+Graha = holy sanctum, sanctorum = holy sanctuary. The vedic high cultures designed the kaaba according to the astronomical symbolism and their knowledge of the universe, the sun , planets, moon etc...read the accompanying articles for details....you will understand why Islam is a hoax perpetrated on generations of poor ignorant human beings on planet earth ) Also you ( Oeyvind and Totoro et alias) may want to comment on how islamists have cleverly over the ages tried vigorously to expunge the hindu/vedanta influence of ancient india in arabia and also its influence on islam right up to the Kaaba ( derived from Garbha - gargha graha = holy sanctuary), even the name of Allah = Alla =preislamic arabian variant form of the hindu goddess Durga..the father and the predecessors of the prophet mohammad himself were keepers of the sacred kaaba = a preislamic hindu shrine replete with 360 hindu deities of which the Qurayish themselves were sacred keepers of the 3 tribal hindu Deities : Alla, Manaat and Uzza ( see details in the following articles on the Vedic /hindu roots of Islam)......even the arabic language is replete with words of vedic/sanscritic origin -- strange that Allah would write a holy book with vocabulary that is traceable to an even more ancient language in the sanscritic LOL.. Also if God is so divine and really wanted humans to follow his divine instruction...don't you find it strange that he would deliver the message in classical arabic , which a lot of arabs themselves cannot read much lest understand and have to resort to hordes of alim ulamaas /islamic clerics to interpret and explain to the teeming masses....all of which can lead to misinterpretation and human biases and lead to further conflict and bloodshed ( which is what has happened throughout the history of islam...different sects don't agree even among themselves, leading to brutal murders and assasinations cf: the sunni versus the shiites, and also the persecution of the sufis and many other minor sects of islam). click:http://www.swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/archives/byauthor/aditichaturvedi/articles.html scroll down to bottom to read "vedic past of pre-Islamic arabia parts 1 to 8. Princess Bhagavatam Bhagavatam 公主....印度女神Saraswati 寺廟 Kim Sook-Im, US | 2005-01-18 16:38 | Link oopsie...sorry forgot to include the pertinent links..here they are: (scroll down to bottom of page to read about the vedic/hindu influence on pre Islamic arabia parts one to eight) http://www.swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/archives/byauthor/aditichaturvedi/articles.html ( here is the article on the secretive MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD IN AMERICA . Click on sublink "chicago tribune" for the original article ) http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/003253.php Shukran Princess Bhagavatam Sandy P | 2005-01-18 16:51 | Link OT: Geert Wilders was in NYC. Via Bros. Judd: Publication:The New York Sun; Date:Jan 11, 2005; Section:Knickerbocker; Page:15
http://daily.nysun.com/Repository/getmailfiles.asp?Style=OliveXLib:ArticleToMail&Type=text/html&Path=NYS/2005/01/11&ID=Ar01501 Kim Sook-Im,US | 2005-01-19 21:47 | Link Salaams fellow Blogistanis, VERDAMMT UND VERFLUCHT ! WHERE ARE THE HVØCKING NEWSMEDIA, CBS,NBC,FOX NEWS ETC WHEN YOU NEED THEM.... AND IF IT SHOULD BE PROVEN WITHIN A SHADOW OF DOUBT THAT THIS WAS A HEINOUS ISLAMIST CRIME..I CAN BET ON THE APOLOGENTSIAS OF THE WORLD TO HVIT-WASH THE WHOLE MATTER AS THE EVIL DEEDS OF A FEW FANATICS ! Princess Bhagavatam Ex-Christian, now Muslim | 2005-01-19 21:52 | Link Putting their faith in Islam Around 30,000 women in Switzerland have converted to Islam, according to a recent report by an organisation for Muslim women. http://www.swissinfo.org/sen/swissinfo.html?siteSect=107&sid=5416761 Kim Sook-Im, US | 2005-01-20 08:35 | Link regarding the propagandistic post by Ex-kkkristian re: "30,000 women in switzerland suffered temporary insanity and devolved into minions of yshlam...." This simply proves that there are stooopid women in Switzerland just as there are foolish women or women of poor mental capacity that decided to choose enslavement over freedom and self-worth. Ex-KKKristian , kindly note that there are women who foolishly elect to smoke Virginia Slims ...in like fashion those 30 000 women ( if indeed the no. is not exagerrated - a feat quite commonly done by unscrupulous islamic reporters)has just foolishly ( perhaps they were coerced or beaten into conversion by their abusive husbands and boy-friends - a scenario very common when muslim men marry a non-muslim women)elected to imbibe the venom of Yshlam and they will unfortunately suffer the horrendous consequences of subjugation, denigration and disintegration of their womanhood in both the physical and spiritual sense. To show you how venomous this Potion of Yshlam can be , read this article about how AN IRANIAN FEMALE PARLIAMENT MEMBER INSISTS ON EXECUTING STREET WOMEN AND RUN-AWAY GIRLS !!! in this case it is obvious that the Cultic Poison of Yshlam has befuddled her clear-thinking that she would be so ready to sacrifice her own kind on the altar of the demon Yshlam. http://www.secularislam.org/women/bulletin31.htm Tashakkor mikonam, Princess White Lotus 白色蓮花公主... 佛教禪宗宗教在戰爭 PETER | 2005-01-20 08:37 | Link "Ex-Christian, now Muslim | 2005-01-19 21:52 | Link Putting their faith in Islam Around 30,000 women in Switzerland have converted to Islam, according to a recent report by an organisation for Muslim women." CAN YOU PLEASE TELL US WHICH TERROR ATTACK THAT ISLAM COMMITTED ATTRACTED THEM THE MOST TO ISLAM PETER | 2005-01-20 09:03 | Link “I went home and told my mother that if God sees and hears everything, I don’t need a mediator.” “Now, as a Muslim, if I pray for help, I pray directly,” says Nur Sammour-Wüst. “Direct communication with God is a basic tenet of Islam.” “For him, everything was clear, because in Islam death is clearly defined,” she says." YES DEATH OF OTHERS IS CLEARLY DEFINED IN KORAN KILL ANY ONE WHO IS NOT A MUSLIM. “I started to learn more about Islam, and at one point suddenly I knew. I already believed in God, in the prophets, in the angels, in predestination, in resurrection. I was already Muslim, I just had never realised it. In 1992 I officially converted.” HOW IS BELIEVING IN GOD IN THE PROPHETS IN THE ANGELS MAKE ONE A MUSLIM AND NOT A MORMON OR ANY OF THE OTHER TWO THOUSAND CULTS OUT THERE A common preconception is that Muslim women sit at home and are not allowed to go out in public. Nur Sammour-Wüst, who leads an active life, denies she is an exception because she is Swiss. TELL THAT TO ALL THE WOMAN IN THE BASTION OF ISLAM, SAUDI ARABIA AND SHE CAN DENY IT ALL SHE WANTS SHE NOW ENTERED ISLAM WHICH ALLOWS ITS FOLLOWERS TO LIE AT EVERY OCCASION. “In the time of the prophet Mohammed, 1,400 years ago, women were politically and intellectually active. The notion of house-bound women tied to the stove is patriarchal, not religious.” YES AND IT WAS MO HAM HEAD THAT TOOK AWAY ALL THESE RIGHTS OF WOMAN THAT NOW MOST MUSLIM WOMAN IN ISLAMIC COUNTRIES DO NOT HAVE SAME RIGHTS AS MEN. THIS IS A FACT TELL THIS LIAR TO LOOK IT UP. I SEE WHY SHE WENT TO ISLAM SHE LOVES TO LIE AND THE BIBLE SAYS ONE MUST NOT LIE. Kim Sook-Im,US | 2005-01-20 09:16 | Link ex-KKKristian, Mohammed Kemal Mustafa wrote a book advising men on how to beat their wives without leaving incriminating marks. He claims that he was just interpreting the Quran LOL. read this:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3396597.stm This Troll of an Imam is from Spain -- hmmm este Imam es un verdadero caballero , no? Hmmmm i wonder if the muslimahs in Switzerland are faring a tat-bit better LOL. Princess Naboo أميرة نابو .....أميرة نهر النّيل Kim Sook-Im,US | 2005-01-20 09:41 | Link Arabia before the advent of the evil Yshlam was a vibrant and lush land guided by Sanatana Dharma and Vedic wisdom - theirs was a superior culture in spirit , science and arts and their women enjoyed freedom and equality in all aspects of social life. Then the prophet of Doom in a fit of megalomania destroyed this high civilization and turned a verdant and vibrant oasis of civilization into a spiritual waste-land. HERE ARE THE 8 PART SERIES ON THE VEDIC PAST OF PRE-ISLAMIC ARABIA BY MS.ADITI CHATURVEDI :
Shukran Princess Bhagavatam Kim Sook-Im,US | 2005-01-20 10:13 | Link Sorry.. I goofed up in typing the links for the 'vedic influence on islam' above. Here's the correct link for the 8 part vedic influence on preIslamic society" Go to: http://www.swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/archives/archiveslist.html then click "arranged by author's name" then click Aditi Cheturvedi" ( and scroll down to bottom for the 8 part series) This well written series throw fresh light on the vedic influence on preIslamic arabia. It will show how mohammad tried to expunge all vedic influence from Arabia and tried to clumsily link the new Cult/religion to Judaism and Christianity very unconvincingly committing all kinds of errors regarding historical biblical figures and time-line ! Shukran, Øyvind, Leuven | 2005-01-20 13:12 | Link Peter: Actually, Muslims often refer to Moses as "the one who talks to God". He is one the most central prophets within Islam. Kim Sook-Im,US | 2005-01-20 18:16 | Link So Oeyvin believes all that fairy tales concocted by the alim ulema to fool the world. Mohammad tried to endear himself to judaism and christianity but certainly made a mess of things... he tried to expunge the hindu/vedic religion that was prevailing prior to his grand scheme to control the people of arabia with a concocted new religion of Yshlam...that was when Jahiliyahh ( darkness and ignorance befell the arab people up to this day) and unsuspecting leftological academoids like Oeywind would be so gullible as to believe the centuries of accumulated lies and nonsense....Yshlam is a hoax period...don't dance around it. Princess Meenachi Kim Sook-Im,US | 2005-01-20 18:21 | Link Oooh sure Aron--Harun, Jacob--- Yakub...Moses...Mousa...whooo phoooh and ballooooh....Mohammad and the early muslims were unfortunate jews and early christians who got fooled by the bandolero and ended up importing a lot of the old testamental stuff into the new religion and voila you have Yshlam --- biblical Sunnism haaaah. Jay Srimad Bhagavatam..Jayy!!!
The Watcher | 2005-01-20 19:04 | Link Kim sook, we have spoken before, and I applaud your stance on islam. I share the same views and have been debating with muslims on another website. I posed a question to him regarding the eating of pork etc. He said that I will not get into heaven if I don't follow the koran. I asked him then, if a man follows the koran, and acts like bin laden or zawqari, he or she will go to heaven, despite murdering people. What if an infidel like me drinks, has premarital sex, eats pork, curses and insults allah and islam, yet I help the poor, donate money to the homeless and am a good person, but despise islam, will I go to hell? He stumbled over his words. Then I asked him, if allah is god, who created him? and why is it that muslims can never accept their situations in their homeland are their fault and not USA and Israel's fault, and realize that it is islam that entraps them, and that their leaders purposely use islam to keep the citizens illiterate and uneducated, because it makes them easier to control. Then he proceeded to call me a jew, zionist, neocon, nazi. This is the typical response an adamant defender of islam gives when cornered. I like how the saudi clerics were saying that the tsunami was created by allah to punish the vacationing infidels. Over 150,000 muslims died, compared to maybe 5 or 10 thousand tourists. If, in fact, this tsunami was created by a god, isn't it feasible that the "god" punished the muslims for being muslim? after all many more of them died than others. Furthermore, I applaud the aid that the world is sending to help the victims, however, it should be noted, the muslims countries aid is dwarfed in comparison to western countries. Why don't they help their muslim brothers? Islam is nothing more than a cult for the feeble minded who cannot think for themselves or who cannot fathom that their shortcomings in their muslim countries are a result of opression through islam. Kim Sook-Im,US | 2005-01-21 12:16 | Link Hi Watcher, http://www.faithfreedom.org/Quran.htm and http://www.swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/archives/oldarchives/k-manual.html All those leftist, apologists and pretentious acadecians who fancy high fallutin "knowledge" about Yshlam are merely lending further credence and legitimacy to a vile system which is far worse than Nazism . Winston Churchill had extreme foresight and he understood the danger of Yshlam when he quote thusly(this is not an endorsement of Churchill per se) : "Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen: all know how to die. But the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytising faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science - the science against which it had vainly struggled - the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome." شكرًا 너를 감사하십시요 Thank You Princess White Lotus Øyvind, Leuven | 2005-01-21 13:08 | Link The historical roots of Islam is interesting from a religious science point of view. There are certainly influences from numerous sources, including pre-Islamic paganism, Christianity, Judaism, etc. etc. To discuss contemporary Islam, however, one must look at what Muslims believe. Muslims believe in a number of prophets, some of them also referred to as messengers, some more known than others. Moses is one of their prophets, and he is sometimes referred to as "the one who speaks with God". You can think whatever you want about Islam, or whatever else you prefer to call this religion, but these facts remain facts. Kim Sook-Im,US | 2005-01-21 14:48 | Link Oeyvind, Ex-KKKristian is again spouting nonsense and lies about how fast islam is growing....islamists are such inveterate liars and triumphalist. Exactly the opposite is true - IISSSSSSSLAM IS IN FAST DEMISE..I REFER YOU TO THE FOLLOWING EXPOSITION: http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/sina31103.htm AND FURTHER TO THE FOLLOWING ARTICLES: http://www.faithfreedom.org/testimonials.htm
Princess White Lotus peter | 2005-01-21 14:54 | Link Ali Sina of http://www.faithfreedom.org/ wrote in one his articles that he Some observations from Koran I would like to know from the muslims how is it that their allah was able to 7. The Heights (Al-Aráf) 007.160 We divided them into twelve tribes, nations; and We inspired Moses, 20. Tá-há Please don't answer because the muslims have sinned than I have another 2. The Cow (Al-Baqarah) 002.040 O Children of israel! Remember My favour wherewith I favoured you, 2. The Cow (Al-Baqarah) 002.047 O Children of israel! Remember My favour wherewith I favoured you I would like to know also how come in the Koran your allah was able to I would like to know why muslims claim they are more moral and they have 4. Women (An-Nisáa) How can muslims claim that islam is more moral than the west, where in west I would like to know also from a muslim where is the law against hitting In the book that they claim has every thing should this not be included I would like to know when the muslims say they can fight in self defense or The muslims say that Adam, Moses and all the prophets were muslim now lets It is often asked here and to alleviate the crimes of the muslims they say If the muslims will take as many muslims as they like one million ten Joshua Chapter 3 Jews only fought when they received a direct commandment from G-d or a http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0204.htm Exodus Chapter 17 8 Then came Amalek, and fought with Israel in Rephidim. 9 And Moses said {S} 4 And the LORD said unto Gideon: 'The people are yet too many; bring So we see all these battles were at G-ds commandments or prophets and G-d The torah is also very clear when it is permitted to fight with out direct Do the muslims have this in their book Treatment of Gentiles The "Golden Rule" is not an idea that began with Christianity. It was a The muslims sadly only has mostly kill thy neighbor versus. Qur'an 9:88 "The Messenger and those who believe with him, strive hard and The muslims often claims that these are taken out of context. Well as I As to the muslim claim which I`m sure every one has heard this claim at one 005.032 For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever PETER peterusa@optonline.net PETER | 2005-01-21 15:41 | Link "Muslims believe in a number of prophets, some of them also referred to as messengers, some more known than others. Moses is one of their prophets, and he is sometimes referred to as "the one who speaks with God". You can think whatever you want about Islam, or whatever else you prefer to call this religion, but these facts remain facts." EXCUSE ME MR. Øyvind, Leuven YOU WROTE THIS TOO. Actually, Muslims often refer to Moses as "the one who talks to God". He is one the most central prophets within Islam. NOW LETS ANALYZE THE SITUATION. SO WHAT THE MUSLIM CLAIMS YOU AUTOMATICALLY SUBSCRIBE TO AS TRUE SINCE THE MUSLIM SAID IT. SO LETS SEE IF ITS TRUE. THEY SAY MOSES WAS A MUSLIM AND "THE ONE WHO TALKS TO GOD" ARE YOU AWARE THAT THEY ALSO SAY THAT THE VERSE IN OT WHERE IT STATES THAT I WILL RAISE A PROPHET JUST LIKE YOU IS MEANT TO BE MO HAM HEAD HE WAS LIKE MOSES. NOW YOU JUST CONTRADICTED THAT HOW COULD HE BE LIKE MOSES IF MO HAM HEAD DID NOT SPEAK TO GOD DIRECTLY. NOW I KNOW BEING MUSLIMS ARE ALL LIARS AND TERRORISTS THEY WILL TELL YOU WELL THERE WAS THIS ONE TIME THAT THEIR GOD SPOKE TO MO HAM HEAD DIRECTLY. WELL G-D SPOKE TO MOSES ON A DAILY BASIS SO STILL DOES NOT WASH. NOW IF MOSES WAS A MUSLIM THAN HIS PEOPLE WERE MUSLIMS. 2. The Cow (Al-Baqarah) SO IT WAS THE MUSLIMS THAT REALLY WORSHIPED THE GOLDEN CALF. IM NOT DEBATING YOU ABOUT THE FACTS THEY CLAIM IM SURE YOU HAVE MUCH MORE KNOWLEDGE ABOUT THESE FACTS. IM DEBATING YOU IF THE FACTS THEY SAY THEY HAVE ARE TRUE OR NOT. MEANING WAS MOSES A MUSLIM WAS ADAM A MUSLIM. IF THEY WERE MUSLIM HOW COME THEIR KIDS LEFT ISLAM THAT MEANS AN AWFUL LOT OF PEOPLE LEFT ISLAM WHY IS THIS NOT ON ANY ISLAMIC WEB SITE.
Bjørn Stærk | 2005-01-21 17:41 | Link Peter: I would appreciate if you'd turn off caps lock when you write. Writing in all capitalized letters is rude, and also makes the comment difficult to read. Dave (back in Australia | 2005-01-22 01:53 | Link Nice one peter. Debating who really is the favoured ones of a mythical god is dull in the extreme. Sure Allah didn't save the Indonesians from their wave, but I don't recall god intervening during WW2 to save members of the jewish faith. As for what the muslims claim is representative of their faith.... What is important is how they enact their faith and believe it means, rather than what some centuries old primitive document says. The bible has something to say about gays, women who don't cover their heads and men who wear clothes of many threads, but I don't see christians overwhelmingly opposing this. Certainly the churches centuries old animosity towards women was diminished considerably of late. David Elson, Australia (longing for Germany) | 2005-01-22 02:09 | Link To Bjoern, I understand many of the criticisms of the way that islam is practised and perpetrated throughout the world and certainly agree with it. But a number of your postees are openly racist, or at the very least ethnocentric; characterising one and all Muslims as blood thirsty western-hating monsters, and that Islam is unvaryingly evil. The vast majority of these posts are unquestioned by you, severely hampering the quality of the debate on these pages. One almost has to wonder if you too secretly harbour or endorse the racist thoughts of others on this site. Additionally I was under the impression that the posting of complete articles or postings of incredible length were discouraged? Yet I can see little evidence of that here. They are the blogsphere equivalent of shouting a monotonous tirade and as such are hardly conductive to good open debates, especially when and if they consist solely of blatantly racist statements. If you can delete (supposedly) hundreds of advertising spam comments, then surely cases of excessive racism and or the making of extremely outrageous statements without the slights of traces of proof could be removed also. Bjørn Stærk | 2005-01-22 08:54 | Link David Elson: One almost has to wonder if you too secretly harbour or endorse the racist thoughts of others on this site. "almost has"? You mean you do? Here's a link, and another one. Read them both, then come back here and either repeat that accusation or apologize. Additionally I was under the impression that the posting of complete articles or postings of incredible length were discouraged? Posting articles others have written is illegal, yes. Long comments consisting almost entirely of quotes are annoying, and unlikely to be read by anyone, but somehow I don't think Peter's one unusually long comment is what's bothering you here. You want me to censor these views. That won't happen. Don't ask me to again. As for why I don't take part in this debate, it's because I've lost interest in it. Debating Islamophobes is like debating Chomskyites: Easy, predictable and frustrating. Øyvind, Leuven | 2005-01-22 17:28 | Link Peter, as you like writing in BIG letters and making equally BIG claims, I would not expect you to stop and think for a moment, but hey - it wouldn't hurt. Neither would a moment of rest from the usual spouting of anti-Islamic extremism hurt Kim Sook-Im. On the first post I saw her write on this blog she even managed a fairly balanced (though factually flawed on numerous points) view. It is fully possible to look at the historical roots of Islam, for instance in Zoroastrism, Christianity, Judaism, Paganism etc. etc. and also to discuss whether their interpretations on different subject is a distortion of Christianity or not, for instance one could discuss the Quranic understanding of trinity. It is also fully possible to discuss whether Christianity itself has loaned, stolen and even distorted concepts taken from older religions. It is fun game to play. It is also game were you can throw about all your - eh - interesting interpretations. For further enjoyment you can also add some carefully chosen quotes from the Qu'ran and you start reminding me of good old atheist warriors. You have to disregard a whole lotta of stuff, of course, but that's something y'all seem to have specialized in a long time ago. The question is of course whether these questions are particularily relevant. Since Bjørn has hardly made this thread limited in perspective, Kim Sook-Ims spamming and your big letters, Peter, is not irrelevant in itself. So, have fun and enjoy yourself! A speck of truth, though, would not hurt. Islam is what Muslims believe in. Muslims believe that Moses was a prophet. It does not matter whether he was a Muslim or not. It does not matter whether he was a prophet or not. It does not even matter whether he ever lived or not. When you say Muhammed is the "one and only prophet" of Islam you are factually wrong, Peter. When you say that no one in Islam has ever heard the word of G-d, you forget that Moses is referred as "the one that spoke to G-d" and that he is reverred as one of the most important prophets by Islam. That is what Muslims believe, Peter, and Islam is what Muslims believe, not what you believe, nor what you believe they believe. And since all Muslims do not believe the same stuff Islam is a broad, pluralistic religion that deserves to be treated as such. That means that the threats from Wahhabism or bin Laden should not be overlooked, but it also means that we should not overlook the messages of peace and love found amongst other branches and other spokesmen and -women of the religion. So often, Islam is treated like one enemy. In fact, those who fight for democracy, for human rights, against terrorism and for political pluralism, for the equality of sexes etc. has to fight at least three different opponents in the Muslim world. None of them are Islam, though it is impossible to study any of them without also studying Islam. Two of them is also closely connected to the Western world and to Western history. They are sometimes seen together, but are often fighting with each other, rather than being allies. Our first opponent is obvious, it is militant Islamism of the kind that creates terrorism. This Islamism has very specific historical roots, both inside and outside of Islam, and also has sociological, economical and historical factors explaining it. Its ideology is far from mainstream Islam, many Islamists are for instance inspired by the works of Qutb or Faraj (sometimes spelled Farag), the first reinterpreted several classical concepts of Islam, the second - an electrician from Cairo - even introduced a sixth pillar to the faith, holy war, claiming it to be the most important one. Still, it does find inspiration in earlier Islamic thinkers, like Ibn Taymiyya. The second is Islamic conservatism. While this conservatism, much stronger in Islam than in Christianity, is to a very large degree an ally in the battle against the terrorists - seen as unorthodox blasphemes - and against the Islamists, concervative Islam does suppress women. Some places, concervatism even means female genital mutilation, an abhorable tradition. Other places, Islamic concervatism is hardly worse than its Christian counterpart, but for both gays and women - for instance - that can be more than bad enough. Yet other places, of course, Islamic conservatism is Wahhabi conservatism, for instance prohibiting music, and treating women like - to quote the Kuwaiti-born Muslim jurist Khaled Abou El Fadl, whom I recently interviewed - 'treated like dirt'. The third opponent is the dictatorships of the Muslim world. Sadly, they are not few. Sadly, they are often not treated as opponents, and more often than not they are regarded as allies in the War on Terror - since these governments, too, fear the Islamist movements. With good reason, they are a threat to their power. Often this opponent is helped by, and even backed by the West. That is true for Saudi-Arabia. It was true for Iraq. It is true for Kuwait. It is true for Egypt. Defeating the third enemy, the undemocratic regimes of the Muslim word, will help us defeating the other two as well. Did I say us? I could have said that it will help Muslim progressives do it. This is what no anti-Islamist has yet understood, in our fight against these fierce opponents - our allies are also Muslims. Are there not Muslims amongst those fighting for democracy in for instance Iran? Are there not Muslims amongst those who fight for womens rights in the Muslim world? Will you not find Muslims amongst those fighting terrorism and hatred in the name of God? If Islam is what Muslims believe, the Islam of Osama bin Laden is Islam. But so is the Islam of his opponents. Thus, Islam is a religion of war, a religion of peace, and - indeed - a religion of both. Øyvind Kim Sook-Im,US | 2005-01-22 17:49 | Link Darliiiing Oeyvind, In a similar line of logic, misogyny is one of the pillars of Islam...since you are so fervently apologistic for pristine Islam...may i conclude you harbor misogynist intents ? Kali-Ma Øyvind, Leuven | 2005-01-22 17:59 | Link Oh, I do remember discussing with anti-Islamists that did not spam. Kim Sook-Im,US | 2005-01-22 23:10 | Link Daarling Oeyvind, I suspect you are not being gentlemanly enough to engage in a vigorous debate with a hjaelplos damsel as myself because it threatens your androgenous superiority complex...mayhaps all that infatuation with the academythological validity of Yshlam has infected you with the perfidious misogyny so commonplace in islamic societies . Kindly refute my observation and concern for your fairmindedness and journalistic health . Your concern Sister Pushpa Bhagavatam David (Australia) | 2005-01-23 05:33 | Link Bjoern, "ou want me to censor these views." Hardly. Kim Sook-Im,US is the worst offender here when it comes to excessively long posts, and I happen to agree with a large proportion of her rantings (ie; the importance of state and religion separation). As for the racism commonly expressed on your site, I'll buy the argument that you don't have the time or the interest to argue with every socially regressive luddite that raises his or her head. Life's to short to spend it on here. And your Posts do confirm that you do not share these views. Consider that your retraction. ;-) Cheers, David (Australia) | 2005-01-23 05:52 | Link Øyvind, Leuven, Your attempts to analyse the modern and historical aspects of Islam in a balance and fair way are certainly commendable, however it is an approach hardly lileky to meet the approval of the majority of the posters on this site. "It is also fully possible to discuss whether Christianity itself has loaned, stolen and even distorted concepts taken from older religions." Made possible by the fact that there is much evidence to suggest that Christianity has, I don't recall the Easter Bunny ever being present in Bible, and the role that the Christmas period played in early pagan religions can't be underestimated. "Islam is what Muslims believe in. Muslims believe that Moses was a prophet. It does not matter whether he was a Muslim or not. It does not matter whether he was a prophet or not. It does not even matter whether he ever lived or not [sic] That is what Muslims believe, Peter, and Islam is what Muslims believe, not what you believe, nor what you believe they believe. And since all Muslims do not believe the same stuff Islam is a broad, pluralistic religion that deserves to be treated as such. [sic] So often, Islam is treated like one enemy" Hear! Hear! A tiny speak of rationality amongst so much anti-Islamic hyperbole. I agree with Øyvind that our only opponent through all this is militant Islam, not mainstream religion. A pity posters here can not make that distinction. Regards, Kim Sook-Im,US | 2005-01-23 17:24 | Link David(australia, down under), hmmmm i don't know whether to feel complemented or to be offended...at any rate nice to know you agree with my RANTINGS AND RAVINGS. hmmmmm but then again if these profound expositions were to come from the pen of a certain Mr. David Mitchum, or a Mister Bryant McLean or a Mister George O'Brien rather then from the brush of a poor destituted korean farm-girl :) --- i wonder if you would still portray said writings as RANTINGS AND RAVINGS ????.............OR do i detect a wee bit of chauvinism among us politically liberal and correct BLOGISTANIS. Quite coincidental that Mister Oeyvind of Norge would accuse my writings as spØmming and Mr. David of Down Under would accuse me of Ranting and Raving -- are there no refuge for poor womanfolks in Blogistan? or has the virus of Shariah infected the denizens of Blogistan........do I hear ex-KKKristian say " Praise be to Allah ?" hmmmmm David Down Under expresses his concern about 'racism' in the contexts of many posts. I assume he is alluding to the posts that criticizes islam. Let me be clear about this issue, the stealthy islamists would love for you to believe that islam is synonymous with race...and prayerfully you do not fall for that. Islam is not a 'race' , on the contrary it is a politico-religious system, a theocratic fascism synonymous with totalitarianism...an ideology far worse than Nazism and global in scope. As to all the apologentsias a la Oeyvind, i would like to say this - your elaboration and contrivance of a false 'understanding' of this Cult, your apologies as to its diversity, its non-monolithic nature etc.etc. ad nauseum is based on the false premise that there are l) moderate muslims and 2) islam can be reformed , both of which i refute vigorously. I refer you the following two eye opening articles ( among a hundred myriads more): http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/YashikoSagamori31105.htm ( the mythical moderate muslim !) http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=28074 ( although the west does not want to admit it and does not think it is at war with Islam, truth is Islam has been at war with the west and the rest of the world since its inception. The ugly truth is you cannot or are not even able to identify your enemy. The US can station a thousand contingency of troops overseas but cannot even protect the white-house or prevent violence from islamist elements in its midst -- and western apologentsias that contrive theories and fanciful orientalism lend credence and legitimacy for the survival of a theocratic,fascist misogynist system that is hell bent on enslaving humanity sooner or later if the likes of Oeyvindians and australo-davidians are not soundly refuted )
Miss Christina Dogget-Kim :) Sister-in-spirit to Mr. Djawida Nadjongorle
Geronimo, USA | 2005-01-24 01:29 | Link The following expresses a position that many Americans have long known Germany holds and is written by a top Deutch Publisher. He laminates on a view we know is also shared by so many cousins in European, and in part is responsible for the “Great Divide”. Mr. Dapfner’s observation is profound in deed. Matthias Dapfner is Chief Executive of the large German publisher Axel Springer AG. Out of a sense of concern he wrote this blistering attack in DIE WELT, Germany's largest daily newspaper, against the timid reaction of Europe in the face of the Islamic threat. War on Terrorism A few days ago Henryk M. Broder wrote in Welt am Sonntag, "Europe - your family name is appeasement." It's a phrase you can't get out of your head because it's so terribly true. [** Long article deleted. Here's a link for it. - BS 24/1] Øyvind, Leuven | 2005-01-24 10:41 | Link Judaism is also no race. Does this mean that anti-Semitism is not racism? Kim Sook-Im,US | 2005-01-24 14:05 | Link When arab muslims( remember Islam is not a race but a nefarious cult ) or for that matter any middle-easterner who professes islam ( inclusive of turks, iranians etc) aaaaand for all that matters any and i mean aaaaany muslims that feel that his faith has been the least bit criticized ( they call it blaspheme. Anything that smacks off blind praise and obeissance are immediately subjected to a barrage of anti-semitic accusation! However muslims attack , and disparage jews or anything jewish with impunity and without the least concern about anti-semitism. CAIR the store front for the usurpation of the americas by Yshlam and Shariakkk has consistently utilized this anti-semitic angle to stifle dissent and criticism of the Cult of Issssslam. Having said that , I would be curious as to what abracadamecians of the Øyvindian school Princess Pushpa Bhagavatam Ex-Christian, now Muslim | 2005-01-24 16:42 | Link Ahead of Iraq Deployment, 37 Korean Troops Convert to Islam From The Korean Newspaper CHOSUN: http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200405/200405280041.html Geronimo, USA | 2005-01-24 17:45 | Link Øyvind, You responded: Judaism is also no race. Does this mean that anti-Semitism is not racism? Your are correct. Judaism is a religion and not a race. Allow me to respond on anti-Semitism because few really knows what "Anti-Semitism" means. Let's look at the history then you can answer that question yourself. This is a lenghtly response, but intersting, true, and hopefully enlightening. Hopefully Bjorn will not mind and allow my complete response. “Semitism" comes from the name of a character in the Bible, whose name was Shem. Noah had three sons who were named Ham, Shem and Japeth. Those who came from Ham were called "Hamites," those who came from Shem were called "Shemites," or "Semites," and those who were descended from Japheth were called "Japhethites." A great-grandson of Shem was born and was named Eber, of Heber. You will find that in Genesis 11:14. Heber had descendants who were called "Hebrews," and his most notable descendant was a man named Abraham, who is called a "Hebrew." (Genesis 14:13) The descendants of Abram (or Abraham) were called Hebrews, especially when the Children of Jacob-Israel were in Egypt, and the Egyptians called them by that name, "Hebrews." Remember, all the descendants of Abraham were, and are, Hebrews. Abraham had two sons. The first-born son was named Ishmael. His mother was Hagar, an Egyptian. Because Ishmael was not the son of Abraham's wife, he was not given the blessings, which were promised to Abraham, but was to head up a different race of people. The Arabs of today are the descendants of Ishmael. The Arabs are a Hebrew people, because they came from Abraham, who was a Hebrew. The Arabs are also a Semitic people because they came from Shem, the son of Noah. As the Arabs are also Semitic. Abraham's other son was Isaac, and so Isaac was also Hebrew as well as a Semite. Today they are known as Isaacson, Sak-son's, or Saxons. Therefore all the descendants of Isaac are Hebrews and Semites. Isaac had twin sons. One was named Esau, and the other, Jacob. Like their father, they were both Hebrews and Semites, as would be all of their descendants. Later Esau’s name was changed to Edam. Isaac's other son was named Jacob, which means a "supplanter," because when the twins were born, Jacob grabbed his brother's heel and tried to be born first. When Jacob grew up and married, he had twelve sons, and after an experience with the Lord, Jacob's name was changed to Israel and his twelve sons were called, "The Children of Israel.” Because Jacob was their father, these twelve sons were Israelites and Semites. So today, wherever the descendants of these twelve sons are, they are Hebrew, Semites and Israelites. The twelve sons of Jacob-Israel developed into a strong kingdom, but after the death of Solomon, it was divided into the ten-tribed, "House of Israel," and the two-tribed (Judah and Benjamin) "House of Judah." In 721 B.C., the House of Israel with 4/5 of the House of Judah were carried into Assyrian captivity. In 586 B.C. King Nebuchadnezzar took the balance of Judah, with Benjamin, into Babylonian captivity. One of Jacob-Israel's children was Judah (Hebrew - Yehudah). His descendants were called Yehudim ("Judahites"). In Greek this reads Ioudaioi ("Judeans"). The confusing factor is that almost all Bible translations employ the word "Jew," which is a modern, shortened form of the word "Judahite." Every time you come to the word "Jew" in the Old Scriptures, you should read "Judahite;" and every time you come to the word "Jew" in the New Scriptures, you should read it as "Judean. We are led to believe Anti-Semitic means is anti-Jewish. There are many who would like you to remain confused because the term Jew, which can be in reference to many different groups that are totally unrelated. Judaism is a religion and not a race, tribe, or nationality. I was born in the United States, making me an American, of Norwegian ancestry making me Scandinavian. I’m likely from the tribe of Dan or Benjamin, sons of Jacob, who was renamed Israel by God. I may possibly be from the tribe of Judah, but that would not make me a Jew. By birthright being a decendent of any of the 12 tribes would make me an Israelite (not Israeli). At no time have any of my ancestors been Jews, considered Jewish, or practiced Judaism. That also makes me Hebrew, and a descendent of Shem, making me a Shemite, or Semitic. With this knowledge I would never be considered anti-Semitic for any reason, yet I reject the legalist teachings of the religion of Judaism or more correctly, Babylonian Talmudism. Furthermore, you can NOT be born a Jew anymore than you can be born a Christian, Muslim, Hindu, or Buddist. Now the question remains; "Who are those who call themselves Israeli". Many have written on this subject, but few have gone into as much depth as Steven Jones in his book "The Struggle for the Birthright". After reading this book you will have a much better understanding of what is happening in the Middle East and the events that lead us into our time. Øyvind, Leuven | 2005-01-25 12:35 | Link I will rephrase my question, since the sons of Shem keep on discussing who are sons of Shem and not (your interpretation being fairly unusual though): Judaism is also no race. Does this mean that Jew-hatred is not racism? Øyvind Kim Sook-Im, US | 2005-01-25 15:44 | Link iSLAM is not a race either...but rather a perfidious and destructive theo-fascist ideology. Øyvind wrote: ....this short sentence is rather enigmatic, but since i am rather astute, i can read into his little mind the following algorithmic intent: Judaism = not a race >>> Jew-hatred not racism? Islam = not a race >> Islamist-hatred not racism? ergo ......> Islamo-phobia not racism? This is how the cunning islamists and their coterie of western ISLAMOPHILES have cleverly hijacked the word "HOMOPHOBIA" ( replete with its attendent emotive appeal and subtle political undertones ) and use it as their relaying cry of FOUL...SO NOW not only does the innocent infidels have to suffer the grating and insolent calls of Allah-u akbar, but also to suffer the 'guilt' of HOMOPHONIC INSULTS OF "ISLAMO-PHOBIA" I vigorously register indignation at the use of the word "islamo-phobia" ..a most grotesque and maccabre homonymous and homo-phonic insult, if ever there was one. A barbaric cult that insults and denigrates women and homosexuals and world Jewery have no business hijacking the emotive icono-phoneme " PHOBIA" ! JUDIT KIM-GOLDSTEIN 한국 유태인 김 Kim Sook-Im, US | 2005-01-25 18:25 | Link herrro ex kkkristian, oooh don't get all excited about those korean boys converting to isssslam...you see the koran was first revealed in kor(e)an....therefore it is totally kor(e)an of them to read the koran ;)! You see kor(e)an society is very tribal..and those boys they love this idea of the Ummah = you know the motherBrood like in the Borgs LOL. Also all those korean boys take those beheading threats seriously, they want their head attached to their neck..you know what i mean. So very astutely they are engaging in a business transaction by investing in a bit of "das Korean Koranic Kapital".... shades of mushrikkkoon LOL oh here are some related articles to kkkeep you busy: http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:HSl7T4oQ8CsJ:www.sftt.org/dwa/2002/10/30/dw10302002.doc+korean+soldiers+convert+to+islam,+practical+reasons&hl=en ( can muslim soldiers be trusted in the military of open societies?) Honey , don't go away...i've to finish a complex kalkulation, will be right back to fill you in on more of these korean-islam link, north korea, your favorite north korean ayatollah Kim il-Jung ,S.O.B. 악마의 아들 ( ...best left untranslated LOL ) etc. Your loving kor(e)an Sister Kim Sook-Im الأخت الكوريّة ...عيشة كيم Geronimo, USA | 2005-01-25 22:55 | Link Øyvind, Your said: "I will rephrase my question, since the sons of Shem keep on discussing who are sons of Shem and not (your interpretation being fairly unusual though). Does this mean that Jew-hatred is not racism?" I’m not sure what you’re asking. Race is defined as: A local geographic or global human population distinguished as a more or less distinct group of genetically transmitted physical characteristics. When you say “Jew-hatred” are you talking about hating Judean’s, Judahites, or people who practice Judaism? People who embrace Judaism come from many nationalities, so that form of hatred would not be racism. If you hate Judahites, then you hate a tribe of people who are Hebrew, and possibly risk hating yourself. If you hate Judean’s then you hate a wide variety of people of varying nationalities who are/were residences of Judea. You can categorize hate and slice and dice it until your blue in the face, but the problem is really in the hater’s heart and generally boils down to ignorance and missunderstanding. Now, the sons of Shem (one of Noah’s sons) and his family tree take off in all sorts of directions because Shem had five sons; Elam Asshur, Arphaxad, Lud, and Aram. However, we’ll just follow the line of Arphaxad to King David. I can go further, but that should keep you busy. Shem (B. C. 2441-1841). mariam, U.S. | 2005-01-26 01:09 | Link Are not Muslims commiting shirk? I have been talking about this issue in the Muslim community for several years now and have not heard one satisfactory explanation as to why something that looks very much like shirk to me continues unquestioned and unabated. Shirk is association of anything with Allah. In other words we are supposed to be very clear about what we mean when we explain Allah and not mix that concept with other ideas. The reason for this is simple to understand. To do so would cause confusion which leads to misunderstandings, then disagreements, bad feelings, breakdown of communication, fighting and eventually war. That is why all sins can be forgiven except shirk. Prophet Muhammed said shirk is the one sin that will never be forgiven. Muslims know this. They are also aware of the consequences of commiting shirk. Yet no one in the Muslim community seems able to climb down off their self-righteous high horse long enough to look at what we are collectively doing - the confusion and resulting mess we are creating. Both in Quran and Hadith there is instruction given to talk of Allah in terms of the attributes, and in the Hadith in particular we are advised not to translate the name of Allah. The point is to avoid confusion. People talking about the unseen use metaphors because we can't point to it like we can something physical. Different religions use different metaphors. When we are warned strongly against commiting shirk we are being warned not to mix metaphors, not to create confusion in an area people feel very strongly about. Yet that is exactly what we are doing, then sitting back and blaming others for all the resulting ill-will. We don't believe Allah is God The Father, we don't believe He has a son, and we don't equate Him with the Holy Spirit, we want nothing to do with the Trinity, yet we say Muslims and Christians believe (using present tense mind you) in the same God. If Christians do somehow get attracted to and invloved in the Muslim community they are then told the Christians have changed everything, they have garbaged their own religion, and their religious leaders are telling them lies; Islam is the only true religion. Who is lying? When Christians put the before and after together they can come to only one of two conclusions. Either we are lying to them or we know nothing of their religion nor our own. All Muslims learn Sura Ikhlas (Sincerity), and in that Sura Allah is explained clearly as being One. Not one God, but One with no word after the word One. All the Prophets are trying to tell us about the connectedness of the universe, how we all affect each other whether we are aware of it or not, about cause and effect. They are talking about peace and how to achieve it by not dividing into clubs, groups, cliques, and tribes. Create "the other" and down the road there is bound to be a collective fight which causes more lasting damage than the perpetual sibling rivalry kind of fighting. Every religion has the concept of oneness, unity, connectedness, it is only that they have different ways of getting there and use different metaphors to explain it. We get distracted and thrown off base by the use of the pronouns "they, them, their" in the scriptures and are tempted to use these pronouns when referring to people whose faith appears different from our own. The pronoun "they" in the scriptures is used to refer to the people who work to divide the world into "us" and "them," or, in our case, Muslim and non-Muslim. A muslim (Arabic has no upper case letters) in the Prophet's day was simply someone who did not make these divisions. According to the Muslim community, the Prophet himself said the Muslims believe in the same God as the Christians. He could not have said this - he spoke neither English nor German. The underlying message in all the religions of oneness, unity, and connectedness is the same and he could have been referring to that. However, he made it very clear that the metaphors he used when talking of the Source of all creation are different. For example, he told his followeres not to refer to Allah as The Father and not to refer to himself as The Father. Then he went on to advise them to say the phrase Bismillah hir rahman nir rahim (In the name of Allah the Merciful, The Compassionate) whenever they are beginning something, as a constant reminder of the metaphor he WAS using. Rahman and Rahim both have the same root in Arabic - womb or uterus. The womb or uterus is associated with the idea of the mother. Muslims obviously do not wish to make this association, and in their effort to avoid it they end up commiting shirk. Then, when all the consequences of commiting shirk start to plague them, they blame others for the fall - out. It's all the fault of the kuffar, Christians, Jews, the non-practicing Muslims and so on. But none of these people are commiting shirk. The only people associating Allah with something other than what the Prophet was speaking of are the Muslims and a few people who are mindlessly aping them. When we are misquoting and misrepresenting the Prophet like this no amount of worship, charity, abstinence, piety, praise of the Prophet and professing faith in Allah is going to help make things better, because there is no sin worse than shirk. Everyone, including the kuffar we are endlessly putting down and trying to avoid, is better than we are. Through carelessness born out of arrogance we have succeeded in making ourselves the "they" so often chastised throughout the Quran. We are commiting shirk not only when we associate Allah with the Christian or Jewish concept of God, but also the Muslim God. Prophet Muhammed was not talking about a God, that is why he destroyed ALL the gods housed in Kabah. He was in a society that had become overly tribalistic and divisive and he was focusing on the idea of oneness, unity. Then, one may ask, who is speaking in the Quran? Does Unity have a voice? Does Truth speak? What about Justice, Democracy, Liberty, Peace, or even Common Sense? I have always heard their voices. Common Sense says wash your hands before you eat, Peace and Liberty say to treat others as you would have them treat you. Justice and Democracy never stop talking, and Truth says love and caring are all that really matter in the end. The voice of Unity says don't be too tribalistic because there is only war in that; try to think outside the tribe. When we start fighting over who's God is the true God we cannot hear these voices and our communites begin to fall apart, leaving us in situations where there is no peace at all. Mariam Kim Sook-Im,US | 2005-01-26 12:56 | Link
I read with interest your post.However drawing inferences and elaborating seemingly contrite and intro-spective sermons about the One-ness of Godhead is a futile waste of time, especially since the very foundations of Islam is faulty. Islam is a hoax, it is a 14th C. warrior Cult. Its founder is anything but a holy man..if you would care to read and study the earliest islamic writings which unabashedly dilineates the megalomaniac and psychopathic profile of a cunning tribal chieftain. Since Mohammed’s vision in the early seventh century, millions have been slaughtered by the lie of Islam. From reading your opinions you already disqualify yourself as a mookmin/beiever....the Ahmadiyyahs have similar views- they attempt to purge islam of the religious bigotry and hegemony and violence inherent in the mother Cult and end up being declared a heretical sect... and you know the consequence of apostasy, heresy and blasphemy. In the eyes of the larger corpus of islamdom you are a heretic..a good one nonetheless.....you might as well be a kaffir, moonafiq or mooshriq. Islam cannot be reformed. To do that would require you to rehabilitate or reject the primacy of the Quran and Mohammad the prophet and you are in no standing to do either one. . Yshlam is a parasitic religious meme cleverly contrived millenia ago by a devious mind inspired by Evil--- a meme so potent that it infects, replicates and propagates even to this day. I will not entreat you to leave this Cult because if what you opine is sincere and arises from your heart and your independent faculty of thought , then indeed you are no longer under the influence of the Cult - you have become a free and independent agent ...a free child of the Universe. Welcome back ! I refer you to the following essays to further strengthen the spiritual aspect of your humanity: http://home.btclick.com/scimah/memes.htm ( meme theory, religion as a parasitic meme ) http://www.evangelical-times.org/Articles/Jan02/jan02a14.htm ( islam is the world's largest Cult ) http://islamreview.com/articles/whyallah.shtml ( why Allah o' Why?...............questions that allah cannot answer) شكرًا ....ملاك الحقيقة Mariam, U.S.A. | 2005-01-27 21:11 | Link Hello Kim, I read the essays you suggested. The one on memes was not a new idea because I saw it in the Quran when I learned to read Arabic. In fact, it is so prevalent throughout the Quran you don't have to know much Arabic to understand it. So why are not the people who read Arabic aware of it? Many are, in fact they told me the translations are garbage and need to be disposed of in any way possible. So why don't they do something about it? Because most like things the way they are. Man wants everyone and everything to worhip Himself and that is what is going on in all the Muslim countries right now so why should they work to change it? I saw the essay on Buddhism also. All the wise men who are remembered are teaching the same thing, including the danger of self-delusion and self-worship. When their teachings interface with something like Confucianism something of the original teachings remain. But when they interface with paganism you get what we have today because they couldn't let go of their Zues-like, Big Man In The Sky God. And that concept will always take you back to self-delusion and self-worship. I've read essays on the faithfreedom site where the writers are railing at exactly what the voice in the Quran is railing at - the arrogant, we are better than everyone else, divisive mentality. The Christians were a target because they had that mentality and it landed them in things like the Inquistion. Now the "they" in the Quran is the same "they" the faithfreedom people are going after when they talk of "eradication" and "destroying the building." It is the same voice saying the same thing with different words. Trouble is, in the Prophet's day he was talking of a few hundred, at most a few thousand people. Now we are faced with millions who are NOT going to leave the building the faithfreedom people are talking about destroying so we are right back to massive genocidal killing being the only answer to end the massive divisivness the people in the building are propagating. I use the term massive genocide because we have the weapons to do that now. Bows and arrows and swords are out. There has got to be a better way. The idea- people need to stretch their minds a bit and look at history a bit to see how their ideas will play out on the field. We may think we are speaking metaphorically when we say things like "destroy the building" but how will the people who have the real guns take it? And what will they do with it? Note: Have more ideas on this, will post later. Mariam Ex-Christian, now Muslim | 2005-01-27 22:15 | Link Islam gains toehold in Mexico's Zapatista country http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/mexico/20050125-0500-religion-mexico-muslims.html Kim Sook-Im,US | 2005-01-28 05:46 | Link مرحبًا مريم إذا ما تقول أنّه حقيقيّ, كيف تتقدّم إلى صحيح المشكلة عن الإسلام في العالم اليوم ؟ hello Mariam, If what you say is true, how do you propose to correct the problem about islam in the world today? What you seem to say is that the current situation is intolerable because of corruption of the Quran..but i read the original arabic and still find the injunctions rather violent if not even more scary...oftentimes the translations have toned down a bit the violence in the original. Aidid Safar seemed to be saying the same thing. Check out his website : http://aididsafar.com/ At any rate , you may want to direct your new ijtihad or be it tafseer to our good friend and busy sales-man for allah , our good old mr. ex- christian who seems to be more concerned about membership numbers for Allah's country Club LOL. Thank you....Angel of Truth شكرًا .....ملاك الحقيقة 너를... 진실의 천사 감사하십시요 Kim Sook-Im,US | 2005-01-28 06:08 | Link mariam,
I am not sure what you are trying to say.. are you saying that the people who read the original arabic somehow feel that translations into other languages are unreliable and somehow could be the cause of all the ills of humankind, in particular all the ills of islamdom? But that is a fallacy, it is precisely the people who read the original arabic who should know better , but look at their behaviour = misogyny, hatefullness, dividing the world into dar ul harb and dar ul salaam, bigotry , violence, religious hegemony......if the people who purportedly understand the original arabic are acting out what the Quran is enjoining them in the original arabic , then does that not tell you that the problem is in the unholy manifesto. If you have a set of blue prints and the codes in the blue-print instruct you to build a house with 2 levels and 4 rooms..that is what you will get -- not a house with l level and 2 rooms....unless you cannot read well at all. All the alim ulamas are supposed to be experts in reading the original arabic blue-print of the Quran. But that is beside the point ..why would God chose to write his instruction in a classical language so hard to understand with all its grammatical and vocabulary complexities that even the majority of arabs themselves cannot speak much lest read ! And if the Quran is meant to be universal why does God not publish it in all the known tongues of the world...why favor Arabic?..and why must prayers be spoken only in arabic...so God is an arabic speaking God? and God is monolingual? and has a fixation on an archaic human language? You also wrote: " I saw the essay on Buddhism also. All the wise men who are remembered are teaching the same thing, including the danger of self-delusion and self-worship. When their teachings interface with something like Confucianism something of the original teachings remain. But when they interface with paganism you get what we have today because they couldn't let go of their Zues-like, Big Man In The Sky God. And that concept will always take you back to self-delusion and self-worship. " I do not make much sense of this paragraph..if you are disapproving of paganism...know that it was muslims that have slaughtered thousands ,nay millions over the last thousand plus years...not the pagans! Angel of Truth Gunnar, Maryland | 2005-01-29 03:54 | Link Someone on the far left agrees with the notion, advocated earlier by myself, that Iraq was actually behind 9/11. Churchill's essay argues that the Sept. 11 attacks were in retaliation for the Iraqi children killed in a 1991 U.S. bombing raid and by economic sanctions imposed on Iraq by the United Nations following the Persian Gulf War.
Kim Sook-Im,US | 2005-01-29 11:36 | Link Hi Mariam, Ali sina argues in the following essay that Islam cannot be reformed and that we should stop looking for a Martin Luther but rather amplify the voices of all the millions of Solzhenitsyns out there. He compares Islam to the twin evils of Communism and Nazism and that attempting to reform islam would be like attempting to reform communism or nazism. Oftentimes people compare islam with christianity , arguing that if one can defang or reform christianity, the same could be done for Islam. That is not true. This is a poor comparison. In the case of christianity it was the church that was corrupt and oftentimes christians commit atrocities in contradiction to scripture which stresses kindness, forgiveness and compassion. Islam is not the same, when muslims commit heinous deeds they do so in obedience to the quranic scripture and in emulating the behaviour of their prophet. The author argues that Islam has a built in mechanims that prevents reform - eradication is the answer and fomenting the millions of solzhenitsyns out there should be the sacred duty of the free world in order to bring about the demise of the horror that is islam! click here:http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/sina40928.htm Angel of Truth Kim Sook-Im,US | 2005-01-29 11:57 | Link Ooooooh... for the sake of fair balance - Mr. Oeyvind and ex-KKKristian might find the following book - SHATTERING THE MYTH-ISLAM BEYOND VIOLENCE, by Bruce B. Lawrence rather tittilating and uuh exciting and might even whet or hone their apologistic and devious appetite respectively. Within the covers of said tome, they might find the flawed opinions of a westerner enthralled with issssslamdom -venomous notwithstanding .... click for review: http://www.pupress.princeton.edu/titles/6281.html Princess White Lotus 白色蓮花公主 Allan, Melbourne | 2005-01-29 11:59 | Link Wow, very good postings here people. Kim Sook-Im,US | 2005-01-29 12:24 | Link Where there is smoke there is fire......there is islamist smoke in LATIN AMERICA...watch out for the islamist fire.Isssssssslam is a religion of peace - not!!! http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/000304.php
http://www.venusproject.com/ecs/Religions_Major_Threat.html ( adamic religions are a major global threat) Angel de la Verdad Kim Sook-Im,US | 2005-01-29 12:28 | Link Allan,Melbourne, Austronesia Could you please elaborate on which part of this posting constitutes ranting? Just curious. Sook-Im Allan, Melbourne | 2005-01-29 13:53 | Link According to my babylon dictionary: ranting = "speak in an uncontrollable manner, talk loudly, speak wildly" I think its up to you to judge where that is applicatble Kim, but in my mind this is then ranting: Loudly: Uncontrolled: Kim Sook-Im,US | 2005-01-29 16:05 | Link Allan,Melbourne,Austronesia, I suspect the context of my writing may have provoked you into a frenzy of semasiologic critique n'est-ce-pas? My less than favorable evaluation of Isssslam struck a raw cord on your violin of innocence of 'fair-play' ...nein? The fact that you are so ready to use the pejorative descriptor "ranting" to characterize the harsh truth about Isssslam reflects a very common place attitude among educated civilized and fair-minded freedom loving individuals (like you )(for which i congratulate you and which actually heartens me ). However there are many others like me out there who are trying hard to impress on innocent fair-minded individuals like you that Issssslam is a poisonous snake...it is not a pet to be coddled with political correctness , apologia and leftism much less fed choice morsel of kindness lest it grows strong and sinks its venomous fang into the body of Lady Liberty. Mariam is a nascent free-thinker. I suspect however she has not quite fully severed the umbilical cord that binds her to Isssslam and fear that in a moment of weakness she may be sucked back into the womb of the monster Yshlam. Seeking the counsel of Mr. Ex-KKKristian would be tantamount to asking the wolf to tend the flock of lambs ...for he has explicitly indicated in an erstwhile post that " for muslims Isssslam is dearer than Life itself". That consitutes prima facie evidence of cultic indoctrination and hence render his opinion unreliable and cunningly deceptive. Regarding seeking the counsel of Mr. Oeyvind Stroemmen, i will let his post display his erudite innocence- quod erat demonstrantum. Perhaps you would care to peruse this petition and perhaps even sign it :)? http://www.venusproject.com/ecs/common_cause_petition/petition_form.html ....and perhaps I may be so bold as to introduce you to this enlightening and uplifting site? : --> http://www.venusproject.com/ecs/Religions_Major_Threat.html Thank You....Ayesha Kim شكرًا .......عيشة كيم Jabeen | 2005-01-30 07:06 | Link Hey Kim, I work for Mariam and I just wanted to let you know that she will reply to you by Tuesday or Wednesday. It is the week-end for us right now, and it takes her awhile to reply to everything and seeing that you have about three posts for her to address. She likes to look at every aspect and answer accordingly, and that is why it takes her so long.:) So if you could wait until then. She appreciates your questions and the opportunity it provides to share what she has learned after all these years. Thanks.
Jabeen | 2005-01-30 07:09 | Link To Allen, I forgot to address you earlier and thank you for the encouragement for Mariam to post more. Keep reading more throughout the week. Thanks again. Kim Sook-Im,US | 2005-01-30 10:19 | Link Hi Jabeen, Glad to hear that mariam is in deep contemplation. Perhaps she may be interested in the following expositions of a certain Dr. Ahmed Shabbir who is of the opinion that the current form of Islam as practised world wide ( no.2 Islam according to him) is not the true islam. Pristine Islam ( or no. 1 Islam) according to Ddr. Shabbir is a totally different system which promotes liberty and equality among humankind - a most noble aspiration indeed for homo sapien sapiensis! Nevertheless there are others that would argue and disprove his thesis. I do not find much substantial corroboration for Dr. Shabbirs thesis -as far as early islamic writings are concerned they all offer a rather wayward picture of the prophet of Issslam whether no 2 or no. 1. Additionally the Quran itself is its worst defendent proferring much violence , hatred and messages of doom rather than hope and upliftment. ----->http://www.galaxydastak.com/books/criminals/
Kim Sook-Im,US | 2005-01-30 10:40 | Link Mariam and Jabeen, Here is a more complete listing of Dr. Ahmed shabbirs alternative revisionist view of Islam. You may find much parallel thoughts in his writings: ISLAM FOR THE JUNIOR http://www.galaxydastak.com/junior.doc
THE CRIMINALS OF ISLAM http://www.galaxydastak.com/books/criminals/
KARBALA: FACT OR FICTION? http://www.galaxydastak.com/books/karbala/
THE QUR'AN AS IT EXPLAINS ITSELF http://www.galaxydastak.com/qxp1.doc
THUS SPEAKS THE BIBLE http://www.galaxydastak.com/mybible.doc
THE IDEAL PROPHET http://www.galaxydastak.com/books/idealprophet/
FATHER OF THE NATION http://www.galaxydastak.com/booktext/qaid.txt
A SELECTION OF SENSIBLE AHADITH http://www.galaxydastak.com/books/ahadith/
HASHISH FROM QADIAN http://www.galaxydastak.com/books/hashish/
THE NUMBER TWO ISLAM http://www.galaxydastak.com/booktext/number2.txt
WHEN IS THE MESSIAH COMING? http://www.galaxydastak.com/books/messiah/
ISLAM AS I UNDERSTAND http://www.galaxydastak.com/books/iaiu/ Happy reading! Sook-Im Ex-Christian, now Muslim | 2005-01-30 12:40 | Link Twelve days after Sept. 11, 2001, spoken word artist Shannon Staloch converted to Islam, and has been melding her spirituality with her art ever since. http://www.dailybruin.ucla.edu/news/articles.asp?id=31710 Ex-Christian, now Muslim | 2005-01-30 12:45 | Link Women turning to Islam - islam growing in the west Unprecedented numbers of British people, nearly all of them women, are converting to Islam at a time of deep divisions within the Anglican and Catholic churches. Lucy Berrington finds the Muslim Faith is winning Western admirers despite hostile media coverage. The Times (London) - Tuesday, 9th November 1993 The rate of conversions has prompted predictions that Islam will rapidly become an important religious force in this country. "Within the next 20 years the number of British converts will equal or overtake the immigrant Muslim community that brought the faith here", says Rose Kendrick, a religious education teacher at a Hull comprehensive and the author of a textbook guide to the Quran. She says: "Islam is as much a world faith as is Roman Catholicism. No one nationality claims it as its own". Islam is also spreading fast on the continent and in America. The surge in conversions to Islam has taken place despite the negative image of the faith in the Western press. Indeed, the pace of conversions has accelerated since publicity over the Salman Rushdie affair, the Gulf War and the plight of the Muslims in Bosnia. It is even more ironic that most British converts should be women, given the widespread view in the west that Islam treats women poorly. In the United States, women converts outnumber men by four to one, and in Britain make up the bulk of the estimated 10, 000 to 20, 000 converts, forming part of a Muslim community of 1 to 1.5 million. Many of Britain's "New Muslims" are from middle-class backgrounds. They include Matthew Wilkinson, a former head boy of Eton who went on to Cambridge, and a son and daughter of Lord Justice Scott, the judge heading the arms-to-Iraq enquiry.... http://www.newscuts.com/cgi-bin/pread.cgi?p=http://www.prweb.com/releases/2004/7/prwebxml138378.php http://www.invitation2truth.com Kim Sook-Im,US | 2005-01-30 18:10 | Link salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah wa barakatuh Greetings, Please carefully read the following links that will immediately dispell the ridiculous and very cunning lies of islamists attempting to lie to the general public about how much conversion or headway islam is making in the world . On the contrary the monstrous abomination passing off as a religion is dying a fast a deserving death and prayerfully in the very near future the world will be rid of this desert blight like ireland of phytophtera infestans ( potato blight ): read the glorious abandonment of this evil Cult by the millions. Read of the conversion from this cult of death and destruction to other system of thinking and ideologies that befit humans as an intelligent species made in the image of God----- http://www.islam-online.net/iol-english/dowalia/news-2000-april-12/topnews5.asp ( muslims convert to christianity in france by the thousands ) http://www.hvk.org/articles/0603/114.html (women (and men) tricked into converting to Islam -- see they have to use trickery for others to join their cult of perdition LOL ) Happy reading ex-chrisssstian !
أختك الكوريّة ...عيشة كيم 너의 한국 자매...aisha김 Ex-Christian, now Muslim | 2005-01-30 20:18 | Link Islamic Britain lures top people Sunday Times 22 February 2004 http://www.msnbc.com/news/649424.asp -'' Indeed, Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world'' The Economist, London Sept 2003 -BBC: Thousands of Asutralia's Aboriginals are converting to Islam: http://newswww.bbc.net.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/2902315.stm -Islam is spreading so fast in Mexico: http://www.finalcall.com/international/mexico07-02-2002.htm http://www.racematters.org/islamtakesrootinmexico.htm - EVEN IN HAWAII, MORE AND MORE ARE CONVERTING TO ISLAM: http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2001/Nov/11/ln/ln06a.html http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0110/p13s1-woaf.html -Thousands in Rawanda-Africa are converting to Islam every year: http://www.xamarcadde.com/rawanda.html - Hindus in india are converting to Islam in their masses: http://www.milligazette.com/Archive.../0111200275.htm - Islam is back to Spain after 500 years: http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1002/p07s01-woeu.html - More and more americans are converting to Islam specially after 9/11: http://www.yorknewstimes.com/stories/042702/neb_0427020012.shtml - NEW YORK TIMES: ISLAM ATTRACT THOUSANDS DRAWN BEFORE AND AFTER 9/11: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F30D13FA345A0C718EDDA90994D9404482 - The Canadian Globe and Mail: Islam is now the fastest growing religion in Canada: Islam: The Next American Religion? http://www.beliefnet.com/story/69/story_6982.html Catholic World News: Exhilarating Time To Be Christian," But Islam Grows Faster http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=16311 U.S. Department of State for International Information programes: Islam is one of the fastest growing religions in America: http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/muslimlife/
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/444572.cms A Spanish bridge to Islam: http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1002/p07s01-woeu.html Britain Elites are converting to Islam: http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2004/03/286384.html http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1096872/posts http://www.lightuponlight.com/islam...ws&new_topic=14 http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/artic...erahIslam.shtml
http://www.crimeatau.org.ua/project/islam/itriu.html
http://www.islamonline.net/english/news/2002-07/30/article39.shtml So ladies and gentelmen, if you are interested in reading about this great religion, this site is wonderful start: http://www.harunyahya.com Susan | 2005-01-30 23:52 | Link I wouldn't argue with Ex-C about Islam over the Internet anymore, Kim Sook-Im. After all, arguing with Ex-C's coreligionists is what the Armanious family of New Jersey did, and look what happened to them: http://www.armaniousmemorial.org/new/ Allan, Melbourne | 2005-01-31 12:40 | Link Suddenly, this discussion is ruined in my mind. Who is really interrested in reading a tonn of links to different sites anyways? |
