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From the archives: Remember, remember 11 September; Murderous monsters in flight; Reject their dark game; And let Liberty's flame; Burn prouder and ever more bright - Geoffrey Barto "Bjørn Stærks hyklerske dobbeltmoral er til å spy av. Under det syltynne fernisset av redelighet sitter han klar med en vulkan av diagnoser han kan klistre på annerledes tenkende mennesker når han etter beste evne har spilt sine kort. Jeg tror han har forregnet seg. Det blir ikke noe hyggelig under sharia selv om han har slikket de nye herskernes støvlesnuter."
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The left won Norway's election
If you've been living in .. erm .. outside a bubble, the left won Norway's election on Monday. The new ruling coalition includes socialists, but they're the weak and cuddly kind, so try to restrain Pat Robertson. It was a narrow victory, and the more interesting trend is that the Progress Party is now our largest party on the right. So this could very well be a short term victory for the centre-left, but a long-term victory for the right.
Herbie, NY NY | 2005-09-15 22:42 |
Link
I was in Norway in Oslo just before the election and was walking down Karl Johan Street where all of the parties had tables or booths. After talking to the Progress party representative who had a copy of an Ann Rand book, he gave me a campaign button. I wore it to dinner with a retired Norweigan diplomat. He took one look at the button and proceeded to tell me they fascists. Most fun I had in 6 months was getting him so excited. sigurd, oslo | 2005-09-16 18:45 | Link Well, they might not be fascists but definately not very far from it. A prominent minister of the current right-centre goverment even went so far as to call CI Hagen their 'Führer'. Herbie, NY NY | 2005-09-16 22:05 | Link In the US they would be called centrist Republicans :-) Gunnar, Maryland | 2005-09-17 00:54 | Link Sigurd, ideologically, it's the left that is closer to nazis. sigurd, oslo | 2005-09-17 19:59 | Link Nazism is national-socialism, not easily defined as right-wing or leftist, rather a mix. The progress party has an anti-immigration, pro-norwegian policy, as well as flirting heavily with more socialistic promises, like increased funding for welfare. Not to mention their complete disregard of culture of any sort, and being funded by the apartheid regime in south africa during its founding days. Gunnar, Maryland | 2005-09-18 01:12 | Link Sigurd, If you look up fascism, the essential point is dictatorship. Nazism adds socialism, nationalism and jew hatred as the unifying theme. Practically speaking, statism needs a unifying theme/ideology in order for people to go along with it. I don't speak for european so called "right wing", since I'm more familiar with the US. Let's look at where the left and right are: Issue.....Nazis.....Left......Right (1) The left is patriotic about any country that violates human rights, and has general hatred for countries that don't. (2) Patriotism is relative to the country that one is patriotic about. Patriotism for Nazi germany is bad because Nazi germany violates human rights. It's totally illogical to associate US conservatives with Nazism just because they are patriotic. By this logic, if a murderer like movies, then all people who like movies are criminals. (3) http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=9926 So, It is the left that is actuallyazi-like. The left is the precursor to Nazism. Leftist are just looking for a fuhrer. And they are desperately trying to smear the right with their own guilt. Nice try. Ylving, Norway | 2005-09-18 11:26 | Link Gunnar If you look up facism you'll notice that trying to cram a diverse political theory like facism into one "essential" point, is rather fruitless. Furthermore, how "socialist" the Nazis where, besides in name, is a discussion all in it self. As for your interesting Nazi - Left - Right comparison chart: As far as I can understand, your definition of patriotism goes far beyond anyone I've seen before ( Patriotism Definitions ) Jew-hatred. Hardly a defining characteristic of the left. You'll find many "anti-Zionists", but jew-hatred is no more a part of the left than of the right. Furthermore the Nazi Jew-hatred was based, among other things, on their belief in "arian/germanic race purity and supremacy", which also meant persecussion of Gypsies, homosexuals, the disabled, communists etc. Real freedom. Everyone is entiteled to their own opinion....just dont try to pass it on as an objective truth. Most "lefties" belive that the leftie-politics actually means more freedom for all. Feel free to disagree though ;) So to sum it up I'll introduce "the Chart" v.1.01. I'll even throw in an additional issue...just for kicks ofcourse. Issue.............Nazis.....Left......Right The way I see it the Nazis doesnt really belong to either side in the politics...mostly because a 1-dimensional political spectrum (ie left - right) is far too simplistic (yes, even the "circle" one). sigurd, oslo | 2005-09-18 14:53 | Link (1) The left is patriotic about any country that violates human rights, and has general hatred for countries that don't. Gunnar, Maryland | 2005-09-18 15:30 | Link Ylving, Your lack of support for your opinions is amazing. Actually, I didn't cram anything into a defintion. From Dictionary.com 2. A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government. score 1-0 >> Furthermore, how "socialist" the Nazis where, besides in name, is a discussion all in it self. Perhaps, but your position that Nazi has only "SoSo" socialism is complete bunk. http://jonjayray.tripod.com/hitler.html score: 2-0 >> Further your "relativity" defence of right-wing patriotism could pretty much be used for both statism and socialism aswell, where the Nazis had a "bad" implementation and the left have a non-bad one. Ha, straw man. I didn't say that there was a bad implementation. I said the concept of "patriotism" or "nationalism" IS a relative concept. Statism and socialism are NOT relative. score 3-0 >> but jew-hatred is no more a part of the left than of the right. Totally false. Again, I speak only for the US right wing. There is Absolutely NO jew hatred on the right. Zero, Zilch. On the other hand, It is an attribute of the left: http://www.city-journal.org/html/eon_7_23_02td.html http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=15381 score: 4-0 As for "militarist" views, a study of history shows the opposite. Let's look at the aggressors. The major wars of the world were caused by Hitler, Stalin, Mao, North Koreans, Viet Kong, Arab countries attacking Israel, Saddam, Islamo-fascists, etc. All on the left. Chart 2.0 Issue...............Nazis.....Left......Right (1) Support of any nation that violates human rights. For example, Nazi Germany, Soviet Union, PLO, Iraq, etc. (2) Support of any nation that is based on the idea of protecting human rights. For example, USA. >> The way I see it the Nazis doesnt really belong to either side in the politics...mostly because a 1-dimensional political spectrum (ie left - right) is far too simplistic As I've shown, it's very close to the left. The left has been desperately trying to associate Nazism with the right, using invalid logic based on patriotism. Gunnar, Maryland | 2005-09-18 15:45 | Link Sigurd, Your argument, ie "that's your opinion", is so weak that it's not worth responding to. Gunnar, Maryland | 2005-09-18 19:36 | Link Sigurd, after reading it a second time, without realizing it, you actually support my point. >> I don't know many leftists that are patriotic about, the US for instance. Exactly. Leftists don't like free countries. Especially ones that come to the defense of the innocent. >> Same as for real freedom, it is a very subjective viewpoint. No, it isn't. Freedom is not in the eye of the beholder. Ylving, Norway | 2005-09-18 22:32 | Link Gunnar. Your lack of support for your opinions is amazing.Sorry, but I've obviously missed your memo on the number of supporting links required before being allowed to state your opinion here on this blog. My initial point was simply that facism is much more than the "essential" dictatorship. As far as I can tell the scholars are in disagreement on excactly what constitutes a facist regime, even your supporting quote lists 5-6 additional characteristics. one facist study score 1-1 ? Perhaps, but your position that Nazi has only "SoSo" socialism is complete bunk. You've shown me your link, and I'll respond in kind and show you mine.. score 2-2 ? Ha, straw man. I didn't say that there was a bad implementation. I said the concept of "patriotism" or "nationalism" IS a relative concept. Statism and socialism are NOT relative. Hardly a strawman, more a case of a non-english failing to understand the meaning in you sentence. But hey, gloat all you want. I still fail to see that the "left patriotism" is the bad one while the "right patriotism" is all good. You are a rightwing american patriot, I'm more of a leftleaning norwegian patriot, explain to me how my patriotism is any worse than yours ? score 3-3 ? Totally false. Again, I speak only for the US right wing. There is Absolutely NO jew hatred on the right. Zero, Zilch. On the other hand, It is an attribute of the left: To show you that I actually read your links, I'll refer you back to http://www.city-journal.org/html/eon_7_23_02td.html and direct you to the last paragraph. I'll even restate my opinion : "jew-hatred is no more a part of the left than of the right.". score 4-4 ? As for "militarist" views, a study of history shows the opposite. Let's look at the aggressors. The major wars of the world were caused by Hitler, Stalin, Mao, North Koreans, Viet Kong, Arab countries attacking Israel, Saddam, Islamo-fascists, etc. The actual left / right leaning of Hitler I belive is one of the issues we are debating here, so just to balance things out I'll place him in there as a rightwing aggressor :P. The Vietnam war would be another example. Furthermore, not all wars are as visible Hidden wars
I kinda lost track of the score along the way, but I understand its important to our discussion so feel free to enlighten me. Gunnar, Maryland | 2005-09-19 02:32 | Link Your link shows a lot of misconception. >> But socialism requires worker ownership and control of the means of production. It's communism/Bolshevism that achieves it's goal by abolishing property rights. The point is that the state obtains complete control of everything. In the Nazi case, the state achieves the exact same goal by abolishing liberty rights. They are two sides of the same coin. Read carefully the speech at http://www.hitler.org/speeches/09-14-36.html. You will see that Hitler's differences with Bolshevism are racist and practical, not ideological. He agrees with the premise that capitalism must be destroyed. However, he disagrees with Bolshevism since 1) it's not anti jewish enough, and 2) it results in a less efficient war machine. >> In Nazi Germany, private capitalist individuals owned the means of production, and they in turn were frequently controlled by the Nazi party and state. You use the word "capitalism" rather loosely. In your usage, it simply means "money acquiring". The proper definition implies a system that protects property "rights". With this definition, your sentence is self contradictory when it includes "capitalist" with "controlled". That said, the Nazi state did in fact take property: 7. AS FOUNDATION FOR A NEW CURRENCY THE PROPERTY OF THOSE WHO ARE NOT OF OUR BLOOD MUST DO SERVICE. If families who have lived in Germany for a thousand years are now expropriated, we must do the same to the Jewish usurers.www.hitler.org/speeches The reality is that Hitler was right, communism would fail. He was ahead of his time. China is now turning away from communism and towards fascism (state control of economic activity). The point is that one should not confuse "robust economic activity" with "capitalism". >> True socialism does not advocate such economic dictatorship -- it can only be democratic. Although the democratic process may be used to implement socialism, the result is state dictatorial control of property and liberty. Government run schools, government run health care, government run oil business, etc. In the US, the extreme left doesn't really believe in democracy. They never put their most cherished ideas up for a vote. >> Hitler's other political beliefs place him almost always on the far right. Circular reasoning, since the author defines the right as what Hitler believes. >> He advocated racism over racial tolerance, The roots of the democratic party in the US are in the racist south. Democrats founded the Klu Klux Klan to counter the fact that republicans came down and took over and implemented full racial civil rights. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconstruction) What's more, the democratic party continues it's racist view that blacks can only succeed if they are given help. American conservatives favor freedom. However, a proper moral system must be internally consistent. The right to liberty doesn't extend the killing another. The left's support of abortion is rooted in racist eugenics. >> and even held friendly relations with the Church, even though he was an atheist. Actually, most Catholic priests ended up in the concentration camps. There were no "friendly" relations with the Catholic Church. David Elson, Aus | 2005-09-20 10:11 | Link Alright thre's a lot of crap on here. So I'll set the Record straight. Chart - Final Cut Issue...............Nazis..Left.Ami-Right..Liberal 1)Budget deficit, massive government beaurcracies. Just because AMerican hasn't got universal health care don't mean they haven't got shit loads of government. Sandy P | 2005-09-20 16:09 | Link What religion is enshrined in whose constitution, David? -- Fascism - communism - 2 sides of the same coin, they had to define the other side somehow to make sure their people would fight against each other. They're more alike than different. Trackback
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Sandy P 20/09 David Elson, Aus 20/09 Gunnar, Maryland 19/09 Ylving, Norway 18/09 Gunnar, Maryland 18/09 Gunnar, Maryland 18/09 Gunnar, Maryland 18/09 sigurd, oslo 18/09 Ylving, Norway 18/09 Gunnar, Maryland 18/09 sigurd, oslo 17/09 Gunnar, Maryland 17/09 Herbie, NY NY 16/09 sigurd, oslo 16/09 Herbie, NY NY 15/09 |
