Anti-Muslim attacks in the Netherlands

When the US was attacked on 9/11, it struck many of us how few reprisals there were against American Muslims. There were some attacks, but for a country of 300 million, who had just experienced the largest terrorist attack in history, the display of restraint was encouraging.

I'm correspondingly discouraged by how the people of Holland have dealt with Theo van Gogh's murder - one death in a country of 16 million. There's been vandalism and arson, pig heads nailed to doors, the bombing of an Islamic school. Øyvind Strømmen sent me this from a Belgian newspaper - it tells you the scale of the reprisals:

In the Netherlands a mosque in Huizen and a mosque in Breda was targeted by arsonists this weekend. In Rotterdam an Islamic speechhouse was covered with offending texts, while a gathering place for Moroccans in Amsterdam was smeared with red paint by unknown perpetrators.

In Huizen the police arrested three suspected of an arson attempt against the an-Nasr mosque. According to the police they were caught redhanded while trying to put fire on the mosque at 4 a.m. the night to Saturday. The night to Sunday arson attempts were also made on a mosque in Breda, material behind the mosque was put on fire by unknown perpetrators. When the police arrived the fire had already been put out.

Sunday morning it was discovered that a mosque in East Rotterdam had been covered with texts and images offending to Muslims. In Amsterdam the office of Emcemo (the Euromeditterranean centre of migration and development) was smeared with red painting.

An Islamist terrorist group has now warned that "the Dutch government and the people will pay heavily" if these attacks don't stop. That's a false threat - Islamist terrorists attack whenever they can, no matter the justification - but if these attacks don't end soon they'll help recruit new Islamists. Many Islam critics seem to simultaneously fear and hope for an all-out conflict between Muslims and natives in Europe. Such a conflict is not inevitable, but anti-Muslim hatred and vandalism will make it more likely.




Comments

I thought one of those mosques had ties to terrorists or major funders and stirred the pot?????


Bjorn.. Obviously you have your facts all wrong. It must be Americans on vacation doing this. Remember, only they are stupid, intolerant, red-neck, right-wing, evangelical fanatics, and inbred enough to do this. As everybody knows, Europeans are tolerant and educated, so there is no way they could be doing this.

Folks, this is not acceptable or necessary. All you have to do is speak out and tell Muslims the truth, and demand that your elected officials get over their PC mentality and be honest, for a change. Make it clear that you know that Islam is basicly intolerant. In those countries where they dominate, Muslims must give full and equal rights to women, other religions, jews, gays, etc... Tell them that people must be allowed to criticize Islam and Big Mo. If Muslims cannot accept these truths, then tell them to go back to their goats. Believe me, this drives them crazy.
Sadly, I see no hope, I don't that you can be Muslim and be honest and accept equality.



Sandy P: I thought one of those mosques had ties to terrorists or major funders and stirred the pot?????

I heard somewhere the school that was bombed was connected to a mosque with suspicions of extremist ties, but I can't find the link. If that is true, it is relevant to the police whose duty it is to investigate and prevent terrorist attacks. That's not what we're talking about here. Some anti-Islamic nut bombed a primary school - that's what we're talking about. A school.


Of course it is wrong for people to react in this way, but it can hardly be compared with what happened in the US. After 9/11 president Bush was quick to suppress any major acts against Muslims by reading of the Koran itself and calling it a religion of peace. The US population quickly was given the right way to think with words like radicals and extremist used to describe those involved.

Holland on the other hand has been given the same propaganda for some time now, and they don’t deal with a far of enemy that hides in caves. The people who attack mosques feel they attack the enemy itself. The enemy that as they see it, is changing their society, and they’re feeling that they are losing that battle when people who speak up gets killed.

How many percent of Holland’s inhabitants are Muslims? I think the number is much grater than in the US.


"Of course it is wrong for people to react in this way, but it can hardly be compared with what happened in the US. After 9/11 president Bush was quick to suppress any major acts against Muslims by reading of the Koran itself and calling it a religion of peace. The US population quickly was given the right way to think with words like radicals and extremist used to describe those involved."

Bush telling the US population that Islam is a religion of peace and reading from the Koran along with the media’s constant refrain that “Islam means peace” did not “suppress” anything. Americans are too independent minded to accept the “right way to think” from the President or anyone else.

The main reason there were few attacks against Muslims and Islamic sites is that Americans knew very little about Islam and have comparatively little experience with Islam or Muslims. The US didn’t see an association between the ideology of the terrorist monsters who carried out 9/11 with the ideology of their Muslim citizens nor have they had bad experiences with their Muslim population who have had an easier time integrating into American society.

Europe, on the other hand has handled the integration of their Muslim population badly and there has been a simmering resentment built up for years towards their Muslim population that you didn’t have in the US.


I salute Bjørn for being fair enough and brave enough to point out these mindless attacks and bombings of Muslim schools and mosques.

It really makes me so angry to see this hatred, when white native dutch animal right activist killed the nazi fortum, I did not see any attacks on animal rights centers or animal rights activists, so why the attacks against Muslims ?

Shall Muslims do the same in the Muslim world by bombing and attacking churchs or western interests everytime an American or western bombs kill innocent muslims ( as the case right now in Iraq ) ???

if for 1 offensive insulting piece of shit westerner killed many mosques and muslim schools were attacked and bombed, what we muslims should ' burn ' and bomb for the 100,000 innocent Iraqi muslims killed so far in Iraq ????

Bjørn was correct when he pointed these attacks will only create more ' angry Islamists ' who will seek revenge at any cost, something which will be very costy and painful for the ' civilized' people of the west.


"Shall Muslims do the same in the Muslim world by bombing and attacking churchs or western interests everytime an American or western bombs kill innocent muslims ( as the case right now in Iraq ) ???"

Excuse you. That is exactly what they are doing and they don't need any excuse either.


After September 11, the American people were rather willing to believe that the barbarous acts of that day were perpetrated by an extremist minority, wholly unrepresentative of the mainstream Islamic faith. In other words, we were ignorant about Islam.

I would hope that Americans have learned a lot about Islam in the meantime.

I would hope they have learned that just about every Moslem held up as a “moderate” has turned out to have ties to extremist organizations (including one that met with President Bush). That it is near impossible for “moderate” Moslems to be unconnected to extremist groups. That funds almost always find their way to extremists groups. That extremist groups cite justification for their acts in the Koran and hadith that can not be rationalized away. That extremist groups are never censured by mainstream Islamic clerics or anyone else in the Islamic world. That “moderate” Moslems have never expressed any solidarity with the American people, but have instead been quick to express their own indignity at being looked at askance.

So, if another act of terror happens here, I’m not so sure that the response would be as peaceful. The number of Americans who want Moslems completely barred from entering the country (as well as Moslems already here deported) is growing.

We don’t want to go down the same path as Europe, which is providing a rather horrifying example of cultural suicide.


Nation

''Excuse you. That is exactly what they are doing and they don't need any excuse either.''

Allright then, there are 57 muslim countries in which nearly 2 billion muslim live, could you please list me all these countries with links to recent attacks in each of these countries against churches or western interests ? thank you.



Scott in PA

''I would hope that Americans have learned a lot about Islam in the meantime.''


Your hopes were realized, indeed, Americans have learned a lot about Islam and that is why hundreds of thousands of them converted to Islam since 9/11:


From the NEW YORK TIMES:

A NATION CHALLENGED: AMERICAN MUSLIMS; Islam Attracts Converts By the Thousand, Drawn Before and After Attacks

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F30D13FA345A0C718EDDA90994D9404482


More Nebraskans converting to Islam after Sept. 11

http://www.yorknewstimes.com/stories/042702/neb_0427020012.shtml


More in Hawai'i turn to Islam

http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2001/Nov/11/ln/ln06a.html


America's very own Muslims
Andrew Stephen
Monday 7th January 2002

Top basketball players, heroes to millions, are converting to Islam

http://www.newstatesman.com/site.php3?newTemplate=NSArticle_NS&newTop=Section%3A+Front+Page&newDisplayURN=200201070008


I personaly happen to know more than 25 American brother and sister who have converted to Islam since 9/11.

Time for your scot to ditch FOX NEWS and all the crap you hear in your media , go to your local bookshop, buy a copy of the Noble Quran, read it by yourself and judge.


Again, Bjørn, you wrote down the unfinished thoughts in my head before I could put them to my blog.

Terrorist acts against Muslims must be condemned. The attack against a primary school was especially troubling. The antidote to Islamofascism is not old-fashioned European fascism. Both are our sworn enemies.

The difference in reactions against Muslims in the US and Europe is mind-blowing. Americans had so much more reason for anger after 9/11-01.

I suspect the real reason is that Americans had confidence that their government would strike back. The Dutch has no faith their government will do anything much.

President Bush stood up and gave Americans and their allies confidence that revenge would reach those who were behind the attacks 9/11-01, AND at the same time, when he had more "political capital" than at any other time, made it very clear that ordinary Muslims were not enemies, and the few attacks that happened were roundly condemned.

There is NO excuse for vigilante acts. But there are causal explanations, and one is that many people feel their leaders have no backbone to defend them. It fuels helplessness, resentment, lack of respect for law and order and eventually anger and violence.

Europe's old-style fascists will grow from this crime and tragedy. So will, at least in the short term, the Islamist brand.

Those of us who believe that liberal democracies must stand decisively up to terrorism will have a war on two fronts between Islamofascism and growing European racism, and spineless governments in the middle doing nothing of substance.


Bjorn, don't you think that the response is what another poster above commented on - the pent up rage of people who feel that their own culture on their own turf is being trivialized; that they are somehow meant to be endlessly accomodating to immigrants who don't have any obvious interest in integrating into the culture of a country that they presumably thought enough of to uproot themselves and immigrate to?

The natives have had enough; and yes, they are over-reacting, but that is what happens when local government ignores the social problems built up by its ill thought out (if well meaning) policies.

"there are 57 muslim countries in which nearly 2 billion muslim live, could you please list me all these countries with links to recent attacks in each of these countries against churches or western interests ? thank you."

I've got a better question. Could you please list all the western countries containing thousands of emmigrants who leave happily to start life in any muslim country, because they (presumably)consider that country so superior to their own?


Do you mean Sunni or Shi'ite Islam?
By the way, which are you?


I could mr. muslim, but I am not fan of long cut and paste jobs like you. Well I have seen this coming for years. There will be a big conflict in Europe again and we did it to ourself. Well the elites did it to us.


Does it matter if I should convert to Sunni or Shi'ite Islam? What do you think? Are they equally right, or is there a difference?
And if one of them is wrong, and I convert to the wrong kind, will I go to hell for that?


Jan wrote: There is NO excuse for vigilante acts. But there are causal explanations, and one is that many people feel their leaders have no backbone to defend them. It fuels helplessness, resentment, lack of respect for law and order and eventually anger and violence.

Do you feel, Jan, that the above paragraph also applies to Islamists?

Øyvind


The difference in reactions against Muslims in the US and Europe is mind-blowing. Americans had so much more reason for anger after 9/11-01.

I suspect the real reason is that Americans had confidence that their government would strike back. The Dutch has no faith their government will do anything much.

That's a very good point, which never crossed my mind.


In response to Andrew:

Muslim populations of various countries as a total and as a percentage are list here:

http://www.islamicweb.com/begin/population.htm

I can't vouch for the accuracy - this was just from a quick google search. US muslim population is almost 4%, Netherlands is 3%.


I believe that the "fascist" response seen in Holland in the aftermath of Theo van Gogh's murder is a result of the perception that the threat of muslim extremism is a domestic rather than a foreign threat.

As Jan said earlier, President Bush made it clear that American muslims were not to be blamed for the actions on the 11th September. The attackers were foreign, supported by foreign money and commanded by a foreign zealot. With the enemy seen as being "over there", Americans were able to rally behind their country. The Dutch do not have that luxury. They have no video of a muslim extremist mocking them on the airwaves, no hint of a foreign conspiracy against their culture and its success.

The Americans relative restraint against vigilante justice aimed at their Muslim population is admirable, but they have the luxury of fighting a foreign enemy. Europeans face terrorist threats from an enemy within their own borders. The Americans are able to watch their military in overseas action, which has the peculiar effect of raising national pride; the Europeans watch nervously as homes in their own countries are raided by secret police. Until Europeans can feel confident that these large communities of foreigners have assimilated, the fear of the enemy within will prevail. And so too will the vigilante justice.


Nancy; Florida | 2004-11-09 23:28

almost exactly what i was thinking. ex c tell me about how all these islamic paradises treat there dhimmi's {dhimmi = anyone not muslim} this is what happens when pc attitudes go too far. and no i'm not anti immigrant. as an american i know how valuable immigrants can be when they assimilate into a country [not try and takeover] however it seems all over the world there is one group that refuses to assimilate and attempts to make the host country give them special treatment or status. i call this group theocratic elites. and it is making many people worldwide to look at your religion as arab imperialism. and yes i know there is no central authority in your religion i do however feel that what comes from its birthplace as the mainstream.


Bjorn, I think background can be found in a Rantburg post from yesterday.

I'll look it up later tonight, have some things to do now.

Interesting new study out by Harvard, terrorism isn't because of poverty, but transitioning to democracy.

Link can be found at Instapundit either yesterday or today.

Backs up other studies, but those weren't as high-profile as this is.


Jan Haugland, Bergen . . .

You said: "I suspect the real reason is that Americans had confidence that their government would strike back. The Dutch has no faith their government will do anything much."

I'm not sure I agree with this particular point regarding Americans, but I do think the fact that the Dutch have no faith that their government will do anything is important.

If people (in any country) feel that they aren't protected by their government, they will more and more turn to their own resources--either strike back or abandon their homes. This simple cause is, in fact, the basis of "tribal society." It's a major reason why the Middle East is full of unstable and vicious governments. The only kind of government that is stable and civilized is one that protects its citizens.

For a further look at this idea, see David Pryce-Jones, The Closed Circle: A Portrait of Arab Society.


Ex-C:

"Allright then, there are 57 muslim countries in which nearly 2 billion muslim live, could you please list me all these countries with links to recent attacks in each of these countries against churches or western interests ? thank you"

Pakistan comes to mind right away, a few years ago. Pakistani Christians were massacred right in the middle of church service by Muslim. And these weren't even western Christians...


Very discouraging, indeed.
I think there is something in that the people feel that the government don't protect them, but I wonder why? They have arrested 7? people already..
Now, the thing that I think really got people geared up, was when they could not have the "thou shalt not kill" slogan removed. If people can have peaceful ways of demonstrating, I dont think they will resort to violence.


Nope, can't find it Bjorn, sorry.


Maybe the people feel the gov't isn't protecting them because they don't do anything about the little stuff.

What do their crime stats say? Do they show demographics? This could be the peoples' way of saying pay attention to us, you're not doing your job.

NYC in the 70s went thru the same funk. Then Rudy RUDY! came and made a point of going after the small stuff.

Canada has the same problem, turning a blind eye. And so does Britain (that poor 89 y.o. lady). W/in 10-15 years, their crime stats will surpass ours. Ours are going down. 34 states have some form of concealed-carry. The states/cities which don't have more crime. NYC, Chicago, LA, DC....

Would you want to rob a house in a concealed-carry state? Look at the stats.

And if a blind eye is turned because of "tolerance and diversity,".....


It wasn't Rantburg, it was Gweilo Diaries:

This was the so called "Muslim School"

A Saudi Group Spreads Extremism In 'Law' Seminars, Taught in Dutch Searching for Roots of 9/11, Europeans Find 6 Plotters Took Course in Holland

http://www.cidi.nl/news/2003/150403b.html

The language was Dutch, but the message was imported from Saudi Arabia, via Saudi books and lecturers who taught a strict, orthodox interpretation of Islam. Mourat, an attendee who offered only his first name, said: "I don't want a separation of state and religion. I want Shariah [Islamic law] here and now." The seminar's most famous graduates: half a dozen members of the group of young men from Hamburg, Germany, who plotted the Sept. 11 attacks.
As you can see, this was not just any school but one with ties to fundamentalists. The government has known about these ties for quite some time now but nothing has been done about it. Is it any wonder that after the umpteenth time Dutch citizens become victims of islamic radicals they want to tear down the places where they learn this stuff?
It should also be noted that Dutch Islamic websites have grown more bold and are actually teaching muslims how to behead victims. Also important, the last week there were much more reports of muslims on the internet rejoicing in the death of Van Gogh than hatespeech towards muslims.

It helped fund the elder Mr. Cheppih's primary school and began running seminars in Islamic law and spiritual belief, attracting several thousand students a year during the 1980s and 1990s.

Of these groups, Eindhoven's branch of the Al-Waqf foundation stands out. Its courses have been attended since the late 1980s by self-styled holy warriors from across Europe. Attendance has become a critical credential for those aspiring to jihad, according to terrorism investigators. Like many of the foundations, Al-Waqf is tightly linked to Saudi Arabia. Its headquarters are there, and wealthy Saudis dominate the board of the Dutch branch. Its courses reflect the puritanical strain of Islam promoted world-wide by the Saudi government.

The Wall Street Journal, 15 april 2003
A Saudi Group Spreads Extremism In 'Law' Seminars, Taught in Dutch Searching for Roots of 9/11, Europeans Find 6 Plotters Took Course in Holland
By IAN JOHNSON and DAVID CRAWFORD
Staff Reporters of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL, Page 1

EINDHOVEN, Netherlands -- In late February, more than 300 young men from across Europe gathered for a weekend seminar on Islamic law put on by the Al-Waqf al-islaami Foundation. In the bright, austere rooms of this city's Al-Furqaan Mosque, they heard sermons on the hell that awaits unbelievers and the benefits of resisting Western ways of living. The language was Dutch, but the message was imported from Saudi Arabia, via Saudi books and lecturers who taught a strict, orthodox interpretation of Islam. Mourat, an attendee who offered only his first name, said: "I don't want a separation of state and religion. I want Shariah [Islamic law] here and now."

For years, the Al-Waqf foundation's seminars have drilled extremist messages into the heads of thousands of young Muslims from across the Continent: Mixing with unfaithful is a form of pollution, Jews are to blame for much of what's wrong in the world, and the rest can be laid at the doorstep of the U.S., according to foundation literature and interviews with attendees.

The seminar's most famous graduates: half a dozen members of the group of young men from Hamburg, Germany, who plotted the Sept. 11 attacks. As European government investigators explore the roots of terrorism, they are discovering foundations such as Al-Waqf. Muslim foundations and charities initially came under the microscope for channeling money to terrorists. Now, investigators are taking another look at whether these groups are encouraging terrorism by teaching an intolerant and xenophobic strain of Islam.

In France, investigators have raised concerns about L'Institut Europeen des Sciences Humaines at the Chateau-Chinon in the Burgundy region. One member of the Hamburg cell took a correspondence course offered by the institute, the investigators say. In Germany, the Haus des Islam in the small town of Lutzelbach near Frankfurt is under observation, according to German intelligence officials. This organization was set up in the 1980s with cash smuggled into the country from the Middle East, the officials say. Wolfgang Burgfeld, who heads the Haus des Islam, says, "We're just a normal teaching institution." The French institute declined to comment. Of these groups, Eindhoven's branch of the Al-Waqf foundation stands out. Its courses have been attended since the late 1980s by self-styled holy warriors from across Europe. Attendance has become a critical credential for those aspiring to jihad, according to terrorism investigators. Like many of the foundations, Al-Waqf is tightly linked to Saudi Arabia. Its headquarters are there, and wealthy Saudis dominate the board of the Dutch branch. Its courses reflect the puritanical strain of Islam promoted world-wide by the Saudi government.

Here in Eindhoven, the foundation's history is interwoven with that of the Cheppih family. Ahmed Cheppih came to the Netherlands from Morocco more than 30 years ago, seeking political asylum from what his son, Mohammed, says was persecution for his Islamic activism.

After taking early retirement as a laborer in 1986, the elder Mr. Cheppih got even more involved in Islamic affairs, his son says. "That became his profession here in Holland," explains Mohammed Cheppih, who is 25 years old.

The elder Mr. Cheppih helped found the mostly Moroccan Al-Furqaan Mosque and the Netherlands' first Islamic primary school. In 1989, the Saudi-based Al-Waqf foundation opened its branch in Eindhoven, eventually locating in the Al-Furqaan Mosque. It helped fund the elder Mr. Cheppih's primary school and began running seminars in Islamic law and spiritual belief, attracting several thousand students a year during the 1980s and 1990s.

The younger Mr. Cheppih says his father sent him to Saudi Arabia to finish high school and then attend university. In 2000, the son returned to the Netherlands as representative of the Muslim World League, Saudi Arabia's main international charity.

A heavy-set man with a beard and rimless glasses, the younger Mr. Cheppih looks old for his years. The widely recognized spokesman for the Al-Furqaan Mosque and Al-Waqf foundation, Mr. Cheppih has had a difficult year. Two young men from the mosque were killed in 2002 by Indian soldiers fighting Muslim militants in Kashmir. The Dutch domestic intelligence agency, known as AIVD, said in public reports last year that the pair were recruited in Eindhoven by Islamist extremists. AIVD also alleged that his father's elementary school spreads extremist beliefs and that the Al-Waqf foundation is "damaging to the Dutch democratic order."

"These allegations are wrong," says Mr. Cheppih at the end of a long Sunday spent lecturing on Islamic law to young men in the Dutch city of Utrecht. "We are for integration. We hold our lectures in Dutch, not Arabic, and encourage people to be the best citizens possible." Until 2000, the Eindhoven seminars were held in a semidetached house on Paulus Potter Street, a run-down neighborhood now slated for demolition. The house still has some traces of its last owners, which according to city records was the Al-Waqf foundation. Overturned furniture lies in the living room, trash cans in the weedy backyard and a few trial-subscription magazines in the hallway.

Two and a half years ago, however, the house -- like the Al-Furqaan Mosque today -- was one of Europe's training grounds for puritanical Islam. Attendees were told to be quiet and attract as little attention as possible, according to Arabic-language handouts that were later seized by German police during raids in Hamburg. Allah, the three-page documents said, was to be worshipped "secretively." But neighbors knew that something unusual was taking place.

"Young Arab men with beards and carrying books would arrive in buses and stay for a long weekend or a week," a neighbor says, gesturing over to the house.

Narrow Interpretation

The readings centered on an extremely narrow interpretation of Islamic law. A key message: mixing with nonbelievers is taboo. A handout from a 1999 conference during the holy month of Ramadan, for example, warned participants not to visit Christians in their homes or accept Christmas cards or gifts. "According to the scholars' consensus, this is forbidden," stated a handout in Arabic that German police seized during a search of the home of El-Hassen Ragi, a Hamburg resident currently under investigation for possibly aiding the Sept. 11 attackers.

The 1999 Ramadan conference had an electric effect on Mr. Ragi, his wife, Beate Ragi, said in a sealed deposition taken by police last year and reviewed by The Wall Street Journal. He began to spout hateful slogans, blaming Jews and the U.S. for the world's problems, Beate Ragi said. She is separated from her husband but still lives in Hamburg and shares custody of their child. "Afterwards, he was completely changed," she added. "He demanded that food be put on the table. Then he'd leave us some, and take the rest to his friends. He was hardly home anymore." Condemnation and abandonment of Western influences are central to the extremist Islamic seminars, a German terrorism investigator says. "If you teach that people are inferior, then it's easier to justify killing them," the investigator says.

In a separate sealed police deposition, Mr. Ragi said he couldn't remember anything about the 1999 Ramadan seminar: neither who went or who organized it.

But another member of the Hamburg circle of young Muslim immigrants who also attended the 1999 seminar, Mohamed Raji, had a better memory. After coming under investigation 18 months ago for allegedly helping to handle logistics for the Sept. 11 hijackers, Mr. Raji returned to his native Morocco. At the request of German police, he was detained by Moroccan police and interrogated.

"The event [in Eindhoven] was organized by the Saudi Ministry for Islamic Affairs for five days. Invitations were sent from across Europe," Mr. Raji said in a sealed deposition taken by Moroccan police last year. The Saudi Embassy in Berlin denies that its government sponsored this or any other seminar abroad. On March 24, however, new links came to light between the Saudi Embassy, Eindhoven and the Hamburg cell. The Saudi Foreign Ministry recalled Mohammad J. Fakihi, director of the Islamic Affairs Department at the Saudi Embassy in Berlin. German police say that earlier, they had found Mr. Fakihi's business card among the
possessions of convicted Hamburg cell member Mounir Motassadeq. The Saudi Embassy declined to comment on the recall of Mr. Fakihi.

Mr. Raji placed Mr. Ragi, Mr. Motassadeq and Zakaria Essabar at the 1999 Ramadan seminar. Mr. Motassadeq was convicted in February in Germany for aiding the hijackers. He was sentenced to 15 years in prison. Mr. Essabar, who is wanted as a principal organizer of the attacks, is believed to be in Pakistan or Afghanistan. He left Germany shortly before the attacks. Not long after attending the 1999 Ramadan seminar, Mr. Motassadeq travelled to Afghanistan to train in an al Qaeda-run camp, according to German court documents used to convict him. He later stayed in contact with clerics who spoke at the seminar, according to court records. And earlier that year, according to German investigators, alleged Sept. 11 pilots Mohamed Atta and Marwan al-Shehhi came to a conference in either Eindhoven or Amsterdam. They subsequently went to al Qaeda camps in Afghanistan. Another man who attended an Al-Waqf seminar in Eindhoven was Ibrahim Diab, a regular at the Al-Quds mosque in Hamburg attended by Mr. Atta and his friends. Mr Diab left Germany the day before the Sept. 11 attacks, according to German court documents. He was detained about a month later at the Afghani border by Pakistani police.

Graduation Certificate

One of the few things he took with him on this trip: a graduation certificate from the 1999 seminar, according to a Pakistani police inventory. "It was like a credential that you have that shows you have the necessary knowledge of Islam in order to be a holy warrior," says another German investigator.


Wake up…

Europe’s political correctness will be its downfall. Islam is a disease. As an American who’s spent most of this year overseas, It’s certainly clear to me that it’s over for Europe. Your ever-increasing infestation of the child molesting ‘mo-hound’ (may shit fall upon him) will eventually drag your society, your culture and your economy into the ground. Americans can see it, why can’t you?? Your complete blindness to the obvious is why we find Euros so easy to ignore.

I’ve had this conversation a 100 times with Euros over the past 14 months, and after about 3 beers, 9 out of 10 of you will lean over the table to inform me how disgusted you are that the most popular name for children born in your prospective countries is now ‘mo-hound (msfuh) I know it’s true, and you know it’s true. Your thin veneer of
PC-‘denialism’ in your press is pathetic. God knows we’ve got our own problems here in the US, but I’ll take our problems over Europe’s any day. (though granted, your women are generally thinner)
.
Muslims will never fit into your culture. Accept it.. and deal with it. Ignoring the problem by conveniently changing the subject to ‘Bush’ or ‘those Americans’ will only quicken your inevitable demise. There in no ‘moderate’ Islam, it’s time to stop hoping it will one day emerge. Kissing their asses by shouting ‘racist’ (or worse) at anyone who has the balls to standup and tell the truth plays right into Islam’s hands.

It’s over for Europe…the writing‘s on the wall…. you’ve got about 2 generations left, at best.

Good luck Europe…it was nice knowing you…..


Kevin,

Islam is a disease.

A certain dictator used such descriptions to describe the jews, do you wish to reproduce his irrational follies?

Obviously child molestations amongst some Islamic ethnic groups who do not regard this to be illegal are a serious problem. But a problem that should target through rigorous policing rather than the stirring up of racial hatred.

I know a number of Middle Eastern and Asian people here in Australia, and not one of them is a potential terrorist waiting to happen. (Unless cooking a super hot curry can be regarded as an act of terrorism!)

I think Europe will be lasting longer than 2 generations! Although with their current devotion to socialistic democracy and consequent economic “benefits”………

Oh well just so long as it doesn’t collapse before the end of the month. I’m going on holidays to Germany, 23th November ;-)

Cheers,
David.


Hay Australia..

I was bracing myself for the ‘hitler’ remark. But the fact I was expecting it makes my point. Europe’s pre-occupation with their ‘oh so virtuous’ PC’ness IS the problem.

Comparing Germany/Jews then, to Europe/islam now is comparing apples and oranges. Jews weren’t known for teaching hate, crashing planes into buildings, gunning down children in the back, killing film makers in the street,…and we all know I can go on and on and on…

I’ve found if you get 4-5 euros all sitting around the table sipping wine, no one really wants to even address the issue of ‘islam’in a very critical manner because someone will inevitably bring up ‘Nazi Germany.’

Get them one on one and all they seem to do is bitch. The Brits bitch about the Paki’s, The Germans bitch about the turks, the Italians bitch about everything. The French bitch about…I actually don’t know what the French bitch about, I tend to completely ignore them (It’s like a hobby of mine) I’m in Shanghia now, and they like the bitch about the Japs…and the US’s policy on Taiwan. (actually I’m going to Taiwan on Sat…will be interesting to see what they bitch about!!)

Using Nazi Germany as a reason not to take a critical look at islam is absurd.


The reason I raised the spectre of Nazi was not to quash criticism of Islamic terrorists, but merely to reinforce the point that it is dangerous to dehumanise any group of people.

Regarding certain people as a disease, or as some how less than human can easily lead to human rights abuses How else can many Muslim men justify mistreating their women folk, if they did not somehow believe them to be inferior?

I do believe that many nations in Europe need to take greater steps to reduce the problems of dissatisfied Muslim youths within its borders, through aid & integration programs, greater immigration and border controls and obviously a serious anti-terror campaign to root out the hard liners.

However I never have and never will advocate a broad policy of oppression against Islamic peoples in the West. You can’t blame them all for the actions of a fascist few.

Equating a member of the human race as a "disease" is what's "absurd".

Cheers,
Dave


"Get them one on one and all they seem to do is bitch. The Brits bitch about the Paki’s, The Germans bitch about the turks, the Italians bitch about everything. The French bitch about…I actually don’t know what the French bitch about, I tend to completely ignore them (It’s like a hobby of mine) I’m in Shanghia now, and they like the bitch about the Japs…and the US’s policy on Taiwan. (actually I’m going to Taiwan on Sat…will be interesting to see what they bitch about!!)"

And the Americans bitch about the Europeans. And the Canadians bitch about the Americans. And the South Americans bitch about the North Americans.
Its a nice round circle, which no-one is excepted from.
Besides, the difference here is that Bush is rather focusing the American anger towards a foreign country, while the Europeans, hopefully, will adress it rightfully internally. Not by bombing them, but by assimilating them properly so they dont have the wrong impression that we are all enemies of Islam.


"This evening in Oslo there was a march commemorating Kristallnacht. According to TV2 News, no Norwegian Jews were present. The authorities, saying that they did not want any trouble, forbade any Jewish symbols, including Stars of David and Israeli flags. On the TV2 evening news, a group of Jews and their friends who wanted to take part in the commemoration were shown being firmly told by a policeman to "please leave the area." This in a city where Muslim demonstrations take place on a regular basis, and include signs and banners bearing hateful, barbaric slogans."


http://www.andrewsullivan.com/index.php?dish_inc=archives/2004_11_07_dish_archive.html#110006181630066757


Dave Elson, Australia | 2004-11-10 11:28 | Link


Dave

That post is right on. Nice one.

Best

Pete


I don't think Islam is a disease. I think it's a fig leaf for Arab Imperialism. Just in the same way communism was a fig leaf for Russian imperialism.

"I think there is something in that the people feel that the government don't protect them, but I wonder why? They have arrested 7? people already.."

They know the government can't protect them, and, more importantly, they can't protect themselves. They feel their insecurity keenly. This is why Americans own guns.

Also, all of that religion of peace stuff now is widely considered Orwellian pc bullshit. When people call Islam the "religion of peace", their tongue is planted firmly in their cheek.

Sadly, I think Europe will have to resort to mass deportations oen day. You should eliminate all welfare benefits and then you should offer Muslim immigrants some money to leave.

After 911 and other events, any American who would convert to Islam is a self-hating sicko.


"It really makes me so angry to see this hatred, when white native dutch animal right activist killed the nazi fortum, I did not see any attacks on animal rights centers or animal rights activists, so why the attacks against Muslims ?"

It's well-known that Fortuyn was killed for his opposition to immigration. And he was not a Nazi.


It is an outrage that extreme leftists can keep jews out of a demonstration commemorating Kristallnacht. Who do they think they are? I will write an e-mail to them about this.


If Euros want to take the threat from Islam seriously, they should read its sacred texts. Only Moslems possess the true faith. Everyone else is an infidel. As such, they have no right to exist. OBL and the lesser lights want to regain the control Islam once had over most of Europe during the caliphate. That was when it led the world in science and learning, then decided for theological reasons to stop its growth and remain fixed forevermore in the stage it had then reached, with some rollbacks here and there as dictated by the Koran. Is there any doubt in anyone's mind that the Dutch filmmaker would have been beheaded if his murderer had the time? Such is the penalty for irrevence in an Islamic society, which Holland will become by the end of the century.


>> NYC in the 70s went thru the same funk. Then Rudy RUDY! came and made a point of going after the small stuff.

That's right, Rudy was brilliant. Zero tolerance. I really admire that when he was a DA, and he went down and to the docks and threatened the mafioso with prosecution, without protection. Talk about "in your face". Sure enough, he followed through. He could be the next US attorney general. And then he could challenge Hillary in 2006, which could screw up her presidency plans.


Øyvind wrote:
Do you feel, Jan, that the above paragraph also applies to Islamists?

Absolutely! Islamofascistic terrorism is at least partially a result of long-time oppression from the kleptocracies that rule the Arab world.

It is also a result of those thug regimes trying, and to a large degree succeeding, in diverting rage away from themselves onto Israel and the US. "Blame the Jews" is a long-tested tactic for diverting oppressed people's anger away from the real oppressers.


Bjorn: I am an American who married a Dane, and I have spent considerable time there over the last 17 years, much of it in Norrebro, where my wife grew up, and where I have seen the impact of immigration first hand. From my very first visit, it amazed me that, while immigration and integration were the foremost topics discussed by everyone I met, it was a topic that the political class would not even touch, unless it was to tsk tsk the great unwashed who were voicing concerns. Every year, I could perceive the disconnect between the government and the people grow and grow, and, every year, I would ask my wife, in amazement, why no political pary even addressed the issue. As you know, one party finally did, and the pressure that was released changed the political landscape.

While I am not familiar with Holland, I suspect that the same forces are at work there. Look at the decision yesterday of the Belgian court, outlawing a political party. If you do not allow ideas to be debated in the political forum, no matter how odious you may find them, they will find expression elsewhere. That is a lesson that most Americans are not too dumb or ignorant to understand.


Good luck Europe…it was nice knowing you…..

Ok, Kevin, but what do you really think? BSF, this is what I love about America.

Comparing Germany/Jews then, to Europe/islam now is comparing apples and oranges. Jews weren’t known for teaching hate, crashing planes into buildings, gunning down children in the back, killing film makers in the street,…and we all know I can go on and on and on…

Excellent point. And even worse is that they learned the exact opposite lesson from what they should have. The lesson should have been, when anti-semitic fascists start to gain power, and start killing people, crush them with all abandon. Nuke the moon.

The "lesson" they actually learned for when fascists start gaining power: appease them like Chamberlin did, join them in harrasing jews, side with terrorists against the jewish state whenever possible, allow them to destroy european culture, side with the bad guys in the UN, take bribes from them to hold the Americans back long enough so that the WMD can be safely transferred.

Thanks Europe. We'll be thinking of you when our children die horrible deaths because of your nuanced, sophiticated and intelligent opinions which are also completely devoid of wisdom.


>> Absolutely! Islamofascistic terrorism is at least partially a result of long-time oppression from the kleptocracies that rule the Arab world.

This is correct, and obvious to anyone who prefers substance over form. (lefties prefer form over substance). That's why the Bush strategy of regime change is brilliant.


Every year, I could perceive the disconnect between the government and the people grow and grow, and, every year, I would ask my wife, in amazement

Ben, I also have some exposure to both sides, but mostly to the US side. My theory is that contrary to popular myth, not all forms of democracy are equal. After I voted in the last norwegian election, I started a discussion about the idea that europeans aren't as democratic as the US version. This was quite controversial to Bjørn, and the discussion was quite intense (not sure how to find a link to it). To summarize: democracy is not a boolean, but can vary as to degree. It seems like compared to the US system, which has a lot more voting, and is a lot more granular, the european democracies have less voting. Thus, like you say, there is far more of a disconnect between euro govts and the people.


Jan Haugland

''Øyvind wrote:
Do you feel, Jan, that the above paragraph also applies to Islamists?

Absolutely! Islamofascistic terrorism is at least partially a result of long-time oppression from the kleptocracies that rule the Arab world.

It is also a result of those thug regimes trying, and to a large degree succeeding, in diverting rage away from themselves onto Israel and the US. "Blame the Jews" is a long-tested tactic for diverting oppressed people's anger away from the real oppressers''


Of course Jan forgot to mention the American/Jewish terrorism as the main factor behind the new wave of terrorism, always blame Muslims for what they do, never ever blame the west for what they do, oh I forgot, you are sinless !!!


SOMETHING THE WESTERN MEDIA WILL NEVER SHOW YOU:

A video showing a muslim suicide martyer driving his car into an American tank in Iraq blowing it up and killing all the American 'terrorists' inside:

http://www.islamonline.net/arabic/news/2004-11/10/images/film002.WMV


Source: http://www.islamonline.net/Arabic/news/2004-11/10/article03.shtml


I'm sorry to put it this way: but I HATE being called 'euro' or 'european', as if every citizen of the EU can be lumped together. Well, I'm Dutch and I want to stay that way. Sorry, had to make that clear. Why o why does anyone compare this to the US, whatever mr Bush said, whatever mr Giuliani did? Who cares? A islamic school (in Uden) was set on fire, reports about terrorists by the AIVD (the Dutch intelligence agency) were leaked to exactly those terrorists and now a raid on a house in The Hague, apparently filled with terrorists! I don't want to hear a thing about multiculti, marxist-left... if you dare make this part of your own larger than life culture war, I almost feel an urge to grab for a bat, at least... (the entire country has gone mad)


Ex-Christian, are you Sunni or Shi'ite?
Which faith would you say is the right one, Sunni or Shi'ite?


Americans know all about vigilante justice. Back in the 80's I lived in a town next to one of the "People's Republics" in the Boston area. A woman was raped at the train station, and many of my neighbors went out looking for the rapist, armed to the teeth. I was surprised and proud to have neighbors who looked out for each other in one of the most liberal towns in the state.

Islam will go after you, if you are weak or let them.


Erik Jensenholt, Norway

''Ex-Christian, are you Sunni or Shi'ite?
Which faith would you say is the right one, Sunni or Shi'ite?''


Hi Erik, I am Sunni Muslim, although I like to call myself MUSLIM only.

I found Sunni Islam to be the best and the most logical.



Whoa, seems things are heating up in your neck of the woods.

Negotiator was called?

Were hostages taken?????

I might have to record Die Welt tonite. Their post-election interviews were a stitch.


The longer-term solution here is the American one: respect people of faith, give them real economic opportunities in a growing economy, and leave them alone. We have used this formula brilliantly throughout our history to attract hardworking, business-savvy religious minorities, from the Quakers and the mennonites in PA to the mormons in the west and Dutch reformed in MI to hasidim in NY and Iraqi Chaldeans in Dearborn MI to sikhs and Korean methodists in California.

The Euros' problem is that, instead of strivers, they brought in millions of islamist resenters from Africa and the middle east, ie people who are more concerned with attacking jews and their own women than they are with building businesses and social networks that help their own to succeed. Compounding the problem is the limited access to capital and the myriad difficulties facing small entrepreneurs.

Trouble ahead. Get ready for another wave of European emigration to the US, this time the good European muslims, the strivers who will find in the US plenty of tolerance, opportunity and above all, no state interference. Bring them here, the more strivers the better.


ripama, massachusetts

''Islam will go after you, if you are weak or let them.''
¨

Come on ripama, are you that scared ? are Muslims really that dangerous ? there are nearly 2 billion muslim in the world (third of the world ) imagine if all of them were after you !!


>> I'm sorry to put it this way: but I HATE being called 'euro' or 'european', as if every citizen of the EU can be lumped together. Well, I'm Dutch and I want to stay that way.

Good for you. I agree with you. I'm norwegian, and I want to stay that way. I dread Norway being pulled into the EU mess (I do support a common currency however)

You're right, the US culture war is completely separate from the war on islamo fascists. However, references to Rudy are apropo, since he is not a culture war figure. The point is "zero tolerance" for law violations is a great way to start. For example, incitement to violence and advocating crime is a crime. Gather evidence and prosecute it. Put up an even bigger sign that says "Thou shalt not kill" to show support for freedom of speech.


> Equating a member of the human race as a "disease" is what's "absurd".

Wrong. Some members of the human race are a "disease". The fact that some people misdiagnose does not imply otherwise.


Before reading the other half of my comment: I'am a Dutch guy. I'am against violence. Neither too me as too muslims. I do not believe in Allah, I do not believe in God.

    Starting with this:
There were some attacks, but for a country of 300 million, who had just experienced the largest terrorist attack in history, the display of restraint was encouraging.

There is a major difference between the attacks on 9/11 and the assassination of Van Gogh. Of course there is.

Where the 9/11 attacks were from outside America, this murder was from the inside. Mohammed B. (suspect) is high educated, deep faith and born in our country. This makes it for a variety of people seriously difficult to trust their compatriots from now on.

To know that it is possible that a integrated and born Dutchman (which he official is) can murder someone, only because he had a different opion.

Expressing those feelings and thoughts is hard. It's absolutely no excuse for violence or things like that, but it's a bit of a explanation.

And it's a bit cruel when you want to take revenge for a attack on freedom of speech with violence. You are able to talk, you're free to talk, you're civilized enough to talk. So talk!

Ending this, I would like to warn you for watching "Submission" without watching the three hours of interview which preceded and nuanced the movie.

I'am sorry for my English, I truly am.


>> To know that it is possible that a integrated and born Dutchman (which he official is) can murder someone, only because he had a different opion.

Think brownshirts and the gestapo, they did the same. You sound very naive to these me.

Although Al-qaeda is a global movement, the US is covered with cells. The 9/11 fascists lived among us for years, studying our vulnerabilites. 8 out of 19 registered to vote! A sheik from Canada warned the US govt in the 90s. He said he went on a speaking tour of almost all US mosques. He said that almost every one of them was a breeding ground for extremism.


European nations with their generous social benefits are magnets for people who do not want to work. Live off the state, have lots of babies who will grow up and do the same. If your babies turn into murderers, then let the state deal with it. Blame it on the state.

Muslim immigrants in Europe living on welfare, having large families that do not assimilate, are vulnerable to the messages of hatred in the mosque.


Well, rumors, rumors everywhere:

"One person of Morrocan origin said to have infiltrated intelligence services and to have informed the killer of Van Gogh that he was being watched."


Now you're 2 billion eh - EC?

Since when? And where are you pulling your stats from?


Ex-Christian:
So what do you think of the other directions in Islam, like Shi'ite or Sufi?

If someone converted to Shi'ia or Sufi, would you think of him as less of a true Muslim? Just curious.


Sandy P

''Now you're 2 billion eh - EC?

Since when? And where are you pulling your stats from?''

From the CIA world fact book:

http://islamicweb.com/begin/results.htm


Erik Jensenholt, Norway

''Ex-Christian:
So what do you think of the other directions in Islam, like Shi'ite or Sufi?

If someone converted to Shi'ia or Sufi, would you think of him as less of a true Muslim? Just curious.''

In Islam, anyonwe who declare that:

' There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his last prophet and messenger' is MUSLIM.

Shi'as and Sufis are MUSLIMS.


i tend to agree with several of the above posts. calling islam what it is frightens a lot of europeans. they tend to remember how the nazi's treated the jews and propoganized against jews, however the point made that it isn't jews, buhddists, hindu's, christians flying planes into buildings, strapping bombs and blowing up women and children then justifying it through religion. it is one group. even the red herring tim mcveigh didnt do his crime for religous reasons. i urge ppl to go read prophet of doom and do like i did [ignore the analasys] just read the words on mohammed read about his glorius deeds then you can see where the root of the problem is. Bjorn any news on whats going on in the hague all ive heard here is sketchy


Holland and the US are in no way comparable. Holland is tiny and crowded; the US is vast and has a population many times that of Holland. Also the US is the prototypical "nation of immigrants"
.It has been many years since anyone in the mainstream has dared to refer to the US as, for example, an "Anglo-Saxon" country-without numerous qualifiers. In short, the Dutch nation indisputably belongs to a specific historic people who should be expected to resist a cultural and demographic takeover just like they resisted the Germans in WW2.


jimmytheclaw

You are really so amusing ! you talked about one and only one group of people who are commiting an act of terror, of course, it does not suit your Islamophobic agenda to talk about those christian fascists who so far killed more than 100,000 muslims in Iraq !!

It does not suit you to talk about the atrocities commited against muslims in Thailand and the Philipense by Buddhist and christian governments !

It does not suit you to talk about how GROZNY, a muslim capital, was leveled to the ground by the Russian CHRISTIAN terrorists !

It does not suit you to talk about the massacres commited against muslims in BOSNIA by another group of christian fascists !

And of course, it does not suit you to talk about the daily killings of the Palestineans by the jewish fascists in Palestine !


A must read:

THE ETERNAL DARKESS OF THE AMERICAN MIND:

Our government is as much a terrorist as those in Beslam, Bali, New York and Madrid. It is time we stop thinking ourselves the enlightened culture we are not. It is time to stop a hypocrisy that seems to validate the atrocities we commit while castigating those made against us.

http://207.44.245.159/article6997.htm


steve fisher

''In short, the Dutch nation indisputably belongs to a specific historic people who should be expected to resist a cultural and demographic takeover just like they resisted the Germans in WW2. ''


The point is this cultural and demographic ' takeover' was not imposed on the dutch or the Europeans, it is SELF-MADE, after all, you cant blame Muslims for the decline in the European birth rates ! you cant blame muslims for the high rates of divorce in the west !

You cant blame Muslims for the disintegration of the western family and the death of the western nuclear family !

You cant blame muslims for the hedonestic life style most westerners live !


I have been impressed by the fact that Western European societies seem able, at one and the same time, to (1) express fear and trepidation (in private conversations, at least) about the growing size of Muslim enclaves in their midst while (2) publicly and very sincerely, apparently, expressing solidarity with the oppressed peoples of Palestine and (now) Iraq. Sympathy for the Palestinians and for the insurgency in Iraq extends in some quarters even to a tacit approval of terrorist tactics.

Of course, one can legitimately worry about the transformations occurring in one's own society without unfairly blaming the immigrants that account for the change. And concern about what immigration is doing to one's culture need not color one's analysis of what is happening in Israel or Iraq. BUT -- that requires an intellectual and emotional maturity that is truly laudable, and I admire Europe for so far having been able to do this.

What is the interplay in Europe between attitudes toward muslim immigration and attitudes toward Israel/Iraq? Will Europe continue to dispassionately divorce the two issues? Will a backlash over muslim immigration cause Europe to look more tolerantly at Israel? Will growing muslim influence in European parliaments cause Europe to grow yet more harsh in its condemnation of Israel?


Hey EC about that vid -

Is that the European white guy w/a smile on his face?


--And the Americans bitch about the Europeans.--

Not until lately, Allan. Hasn't that been a longtime Euro complaint?

You don't listen to us, you don't pay attention to us.

Only w/this invention of Al Gore's are we now able to "dialog." And the Euros got what they wanted, we're finally paying attention to them. We paid attention during the runup to the war, we paid attention to the guardianistas. And the world got bitch-slapped in the wee hours of 11/3 by Nixon's Silent Majority and African-Americans.

And Allan? If you have enough time to spend here, you have enough time to surf radio America and tune into our talk radio. Even email your critiques. The hosts might read it. Can't say your dissent was crushed. Unlike a certain mural which was sandblasted.

Actually, you all can participate in the American discourse if you spend a few minutes. We're a big country, lots of options, lots of opinions. But if you want to get out of your echo chamber.....go red, young man. That's American red, not commie red.


Christians 32.71% (of which Roman Catholics 17.28%, Protestants 5.61%, Orthodox 3.49%, Anglicans 1.31%), Muslims 19.67%, Hindus 13.28%, Buddhists 5.84%, Sikhs 0.38%, Jews 0.23%, other religions 13.05%, non-religious 12.43%, atheists 2.41% (2002 est.)

---

Uhhh, 20% of 6 billion is 1.2 billion.

And that was in 2002. And I'm being a little generous.


Seems you're a wee bit off.

But it's understandable. Inflated Jenin, The Lancet study was bogus, can't believe anything AJ says. Nice trick having the Iraqis take over the Fallujah hospital and mosque - AJ not able to spin.

Hint - If you're going to cite the CIA fact book, your link should be to the CIA fact book. The page was updated on 11/2.

www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/fields/2122.html


Good job Sandy on the figures. 32%, impressive...

.23%. You got give them credit for controlling the whole world with so few people.


Off of EURSOC:

--But moral values need not mean a ban on abortion or opposition to gay marriage. Toynbee also dismisses any campaign based on Europe, immigration and crime - though polls consistently show voters demand more action from governments on all three.---

If the citizens of greater Europe are not being listened to by the unelected Brusselsprouts don't be surprised what's going to happen.

The citizenry confers legitimacy upon the government. I keep trying to explain bottom-up v. top-down control. The proles are concerned, their betters cannot keep blowing off the great unwashed for the sake of diversity and tolerance.

It's your history.

And for a continent which is anti-gun, you guys certainly seem to have a lot of weapons floating about. I don't recall anyone bazooka'ing a bud out of jail w/in the past 2-3 years like what happened in Paris.


This is pretty bad. Bombing schools or desecrating houses of worship is not something civilized people do.

If there are people breaking or planning to break Dutch law in such places it is the place of law enforcement to take action and not a bunch of thuggish locals, and no, I'm not interested in hearing their excuses, which are probably just rationalization to pump up their adrenaline and give themselves the nerve (I refuse to call it courage) to do what they've always wanted to.


The Dutch people obviously have no faith that the Dutch government will rectify the situation. We Americans didn't need to burn any mosques because we knew for a fact that "W" was going to find the responsible scum bags and kill them. The Dutch should show some resolve and back bone. Tell the terrorists where you stand and send a company of combat troops to Iraq for every terrorist incident, and they will see a price for their arrogance.


No people can avoid vigilantes if the government completely fails to protect human rights:

to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men

Morality and justice exist, even if no one acknowledges them.

If it's a house of worship, let them prove it by not being offended by "thou shalt not kill". This fact really supports the case that they worship Tash.


Michael, what happens when houses of worship are ammo depots?


Sandy P:

It seems you did not even bother to look at the site I gave you, so I am going to post the statistics here, maybe they will catch your eyes somewho:

Muslims in Asia (1996) 1,022,692,000 (30%)
Muslims in Africa (1996) 426,282,000 (59%)
Total Number of Muslims on the Earth (1996) 1,482,596,925
Total Number of People on the Earth (1996) 5,771,939,007
Percentage of Muslims (1996) 26%
Islam annual growth rate (1994-1995) from U.N. 6.40%
Christianity growth rate (1994-1995) from U.N. 1.46%
Total Number of Muslims on the Earth (1998) 1,678,442,000
Expected Number of Muslims on the Earth (2000) 1,902,095,000


This table below shows the growth of Islam:

North America (1989-1998)---25%
Africa 2.15%
Asia 12.57%
Europe 142.35%
Latin America -4.73%
Australia 257.01%


Among every four humans in the world, one of them is Muslim. Muslims have increased by over 235 percent in the last fifty years up to nearly 1.6 billion. By comparison, Christians have increased by only 47 percent, Hinduism, 117 percent, and Buddhism by 63 percent. Islam is the second largest religious group in France, Great Britain and USA (Muslims in USA are 10 millions and Jews are 6 millions

This report includes nearly all the countries of the world and shows how many Muslims are in each one.

Country Name--- Total Population ---Muslims Percentage ---Number of Muslims

Afghanistan 22,664,136 100% 22,664,136
Albania 3,249,136 75% 2,436,852
Algeria 29,183,032 99% 28,891,202
Angola 10,342,899 25% 2,585,725
Antigua and Barbuda 65,647 n/a
Argentina 34,672,997 2 693,460
Aruba 67,794 5 3,390
Australia 18,260,863 2.09 382,000
Azerbaijan 7,676,953 93.4 7,170,274
Bahrain 590,042 100 590,042
Benin 5,709,529 15 856,429
Bangladesh 123,062,800 85 104,603,380
Bhutan 1,822,625 5 91,131
Bosnia and Herzegovina 2,656,240 40 1,062,496
Botswana 1,477,630 5 73,882
Brazil 162,661,214 0.6 1,000,000
Brunei 299,939 63 188,962
Bulgaria 8,612,757 14 1,205,786
Burkina Faso 10,623,323 50 5,311,662
Burma 45,975,625 10 4,597,563
Burundi 5,943,057 20 1,188,611
Cambodia 10,861,218 1 108,612
Cameroon 14,261,557 55 7,843,856
Canada 28,820,671 1.48 400,000
Central African Republic 3,274,426 55 1,800,934
Chad 6,976,845 85 5,930,318
China 1,210,004,956 11 133,100,545
Christmas Island 813 10 81
Cocos (Keeling) Island 609 57 347
Comoros 569,237 86 489,544
Congo 2,527,841 15 379,176
Cote d'Ivoire 14,762,445 60 8,857,467
Croatia 5,004,112 1.2 60,049
Cyprus 744,609 33 245,721
Djibouti 427,642 94 401,983
Egypt 63,575,107 94 59,760,601
Equatorial Guinea 431,282 25 107,821
Eritrea 3,427,883 80 2,742,306
Ethiopia 57,171,662 65 37,161,580
Fiji 782,381 11 86,062
France 58,317,450 7 4,082,222
Gabon 1,172,798 1 11,728
Gambia 1,204,984 90 1,084,486
Gaza Strip 923,940 98.7 911,929
Georgia 5,219,810 11 574,179
Germany 83,536,115 3.4 2,840,228
Ghana 17,698,271 30 5,309,481
Gibraltar 28,765 8 2,301
Greece 10,538,594 1.5 158,079
Guinea 7,411,981 95 7,041,382
Guinea-Bissau 1,151,330 70 805,931
Guyana 712,091 15 106,814
Hong Kong 6,305,413 1 63,054
India 952,107,694 14 133,295,077
Indonesia 206,611,600 95 196,281,020
Iran 66,094,264 99 65,433,321
Iraq 21,422,292 97 20,779,623
Israel 5,421,995 14 759,079
Italy 57,460,274 1 574,603
Japan 125,449,703 1 1,254,497
Jordan 4,212,152 95 4,001,544
Kazakstan 16,916,463 51.2 8,661,229
Kenya 28,176,686 29.5 8,312,122
Kuwait 1,950,047 89 1,735,542
Kyrgyzstan 4,529,648 76.1 3,447,062
Lebanon 3,776,317 70 2,643,422
Liberia 2,109,789 30 632,937
Libya 5,445,436 100 5,445,436
Lesotho 1,970,781 10 197,078
Macedonia 2,104,035 30 631,211
Madagascar 13,670,507 20 2,734,101
Malawi 9,452,844 35 3,308,495
Malaysia 19,962,893 52 10,380,704
Maldives 270,758 100 270,758
Mali 9,653,261 90 8,687,935
Malta 375,576 14 52,581
Mauritania 2,336,048 100 2,336,048
Mauritius 1,140,256 19.5 222,350
Mayotte 100,838 99 99,830
Mongolia 2,496,617 4 99,865
Morocco 29,779,156 98.7 29,392,027
Mozambique 17,877,927 29 5,184,599
Namibia 1,677,243 5 83,862
Nepal 22,094,033 4 883,761
Netherlands 15,568,034 3 467,041
Niger 9,113,001 91 8,292,831
Nigeria 103,912,489 75 77,934,367
Norway 4,438,547 1.5 66,578
Oman 2,186,548 100 2,186,548
Pakistan 129,275,660 97 125,397,390
Panama 2,655,094 4 106,204
Philippines 74,480,848 14 10,427,319
Qatar 547,761 100 547,761
Reunion 679,198 20 135,840
Romania 21,657,162 20 4,331,432
Russia 148,178,487 18 26,672,127
Rwanda 6,853,359 1 68,534
Saudi Arabia 19,409,058 100 19,409,058
Senegal 9,092,749 95 8,638,112
Serbia and Montenegro 10,614,558 19 2,016,766
Sierra Leone 4,793,121 65 3,115,529
Singapore 3,396,924 17 577,477
Slovenia 1,951,443 1 19,514
Somalia 9,639,151 100 9,639,151
South Africa 41,743,459 2 834,869
Sri Lanka 18,553,074 9 1,669,777
Sudan 31,547,543 85 26,815,412
Suriname 436,418 25 109,105
Swaziland 998,730 10 99,873
Sweden 9,800,000 3.6 320,000
Syria 15,608,648 90 14,047,783
Tajikistan 5,916,373 85 5,028,917
Tanzania 29,058,470 65 18,888,006
Thailand 58,851,357 14 8,239,190
Togo 4,570,530 55 2,513,792
Trinidad and Tobago 1,272,385 12 152,686
Tunisia 9,019,687 98 8,839,293
Turkey 62,484,478 99.8 62,359,509
Turkmenistan 4,149,283 87 3,609,876
Uganda 20,158,176 36 7,256,943
United Arab Emirates 3,057,337 96 2,935,044
United Kingdom 58,489,975 2.7 1,579,229
United States 266,476,278 3.75 9,992,860
Uzbekistan 23,418,381 88 20,608,175
West Bank 1,427,741 75 1,070,806
Western Sahara 222,631 100 222,631
Yemen 13,483,178 99 13,348,346
Zaire 46,498,539 10 4,649,854
Zambia 9,159,072 15 1,373,861
Zimbabwe 11,271,314 15 1,690,697


I guess your PC has a calculater so you only need to add the above figures together to find out how many Muslims are there in the world !

I know it must be very scary to think that third of the world are 'terrorists' and indeed coming after you :)))



>> The Dutch should show some resolve and back bone.

First, I would suggest having every billboard and advertisement blare out "thou shalt not kill". Round up and detain for questioning every potential radical. If they aren't dutch citizens, deport them. Take biometrics from them all (I'm working on biometrics software that might be used in Jordan). Submit these through some big intelligence agencies (FBI, Russian, English, French, etc). If they are wanted anywhere, extradite.

Dramatically increase police forces to provide security to parliament and any other figures that they are targeting. Gather evidence of incitement to violence and prosecute. Sift them like wheat.


@ Gunnar

But the 9/11 terrorist came to live in the USA to be able to strike. The were recruited and brainwashed somewhere else (Germany, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan). That is the difference, isn't it?

And about that "naïve": although I understand the feelings and actions. I strongly disagree with them, I just put into words what could be the motives for these actions.


@ Gunnar again ;-)

It's against everything we stand for to take the same road as America. We do not want to create a society where every civilian is a suspect. We do not want to create a police controled society.

It is naïve to think that "just more police" would solve the problem. Did the 9/11 terrorist just live like normal people, act like normal people?

p.s. where did you get the idea of the "thou shall not kill" posters ? Are you emigrated?


Jay Duggan: "We Americans didn't need to burn any mosques because we knew for a fact that "W" was going to find the responsible scum bags and kill them."

That's spot on. I remember my anger after 9/11, and I remember how good it felt knowing we were going to war in Afghanistan. And we killed a hell of a lot of scum bags. And it felt good.

So no need to burn the mosques of our fellow Americans.


But the 9/11 terrorist came to live in the USA to be able to strike. The were recruited and brainwashed somewhere else (Germany, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan). That is the difference, isn't it?

I don't see why it matters. We have an american guy that made a tape for our viewing pleasure. It makes no difference whether these guys are foreign, domestic, or aliens from Mars, if they have the power and the will to murder, they must be oppposed.

It's against everything we stand for to take the same road as America. We do not want to create a society where every civilian is a suspect. We do not want to create a police controled society.

America is not that kind of society. The police (homeland defense) don't control our society, they protect it. They work for us, like hired help. The US democracy is very responsive to the people, so they can be fired quite easily.

Look, we're talking about fascists taking over your society, just like the Nazis did. Last time, US & British forces liberated you from them. It's not going to happen again. If you don't fight for yourself, no one else will, and your culture will be lost forever.

It is naïve to think that "just more police" would solve the problem. Did the 9/11 terrorist just live like normal people, act like normal people?

No, it's the most direct solution to the problem. To stop vigilantes, people need to feel safe. Rudy amazed everyone and proved every lefty premise wrong by dramatically reducing crime in NYC. If even the bad big apple can be brought under control, then it's at least possible anywhere.

And no, they didn't act like regular people. Multiple males lived together, without much furniture, without any visible means of support. They made contacts with terrorists connections, they flew around a lot, trained in airplanes, took an inordinate interest in exposives, crop dusters, etc. We just were too complacent to connect the dots. Never again.

p.s. where did you get the idea of the "thou shall not kill" posters ? Are you emigrated?

I have no idea what you could possibly mean by the 2nd sentence, so I'll ignore it. I got the idea because the mosque insisted that the "Thou Shalt Not Kill" mural was offensive and racist, and had to be removed. It's totally amazing that the authorities capitulated on this. No religion worthy of being called a religion would be offended by this simple statement. And if Dutch society is worthy of being saved, it would not appease anyone who demanded that free speech be abridged in this way.


Jay Duggan: "We Americans didn't need to burn any mosques because we knew for a fact that "W" was going to find the responsible scum bags and kill them."

RSN>> That's spot on. I remember my anger after 9/11

That's right, as soon as Jan said this, I also thought of my feelings, and everyone I knew, and I thought of W standing with the firemen at ground zero, and the look of determination in his eyes when he said "the people who did this will hear from us", and at the State of the Union Speech, when he said "We will bring these terrorists to justice, or we will bring justice to the terrorists".

And everyone thought, ok, we don't have to worry about it, we can get on with our lives, rough men will take care of this problem. Our job was to keep the economy going. After all, every day the nation stood still, the GDP went down by .4%, and it was at least a couple of weeks. That reduced GDP by 4%! This was something we could control.


"On July 28, Princeton historian Bernard Lewis told the conservative Hamburg-based daily Die Welt that Europe would be Islamic by the end of this century "at the very latest"."

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/004/685ozxcq.asp

Is this nuts? And if it is a possibility, is it a problem?


Is this nuts? And if it is a possibility, is it a problem?

Its no lie that immigrants within european nations have very high birth rates, especially in comparison to the negative growth occurring in their European hosts.

Although one can't predict how population growth and birth rates will change over time, and past attempts to do so have failed, it is reasonable to believe that islamic people will continue to and have an increased role to play in determing the future of Europe.

This is even more certain when you take into consideration the numbers of people that move easily into Europe across their poorly defended borders. Germany in particular has a problem with this.


No, it's the most direct solution to the problem. To stop vigilantes, people need to feel safe. Rudy amazed everyone and proved every lefty premise wrong by dramatically reducing crime in NYC. If even the bad big apple can be brought under control, then it's at least possible anywhere.

- Gunnar

Well, I won't react on the rest of your comment on this very moment. But what I would like to say:

Increasing police and intelligence department is a option, but weird. We already make the most telephone taps on this whole planet and are a country with relative a big intelligence department. And following at least 150 muslim extremist (where Mohammed B. in the picture was) hasn't prevent the murder. I really really doubt the point in increasing the police.

And giving up the rights in such way, that you can defend those same rights is not a thing I like to do.


Will Turkey be admitted to the EU? What will be the effect on the growth of Islam in Europe? Some argue that Turkey, being a secular state in the Islamic world, will have a moderating influence on Islam in Europe.


Thijs writes: "And giving up the rights in such way, that you can defend those same rights is not a thing I like to do."

Thijs -- some people are under that impression that we in America have had to sacrifice civil liberties in order to protect ourselves from terrorists. That has not been the case. Which rights, specifically, would you fear losing?


And giving up the rights in such way, that you can defend those same rights is not a thing I like to do.

Americans haven't given up any rights, so that's a complete red herring.

The US also had a big intelligence apparatus, but they were just sitting around analyzing, and not doing anything.


Gunnar writes: "Americans haven't given up any rights, so that's a complete red herring."

Gunnar, I think that what you say is true for 99.99% of us, but I guess there have been some abuses. I was just looking at the Wikipedia (admittedly, not infallible), but I think I am convinced now that there is room in the Patriot Act for abuse. The Wikipedia lists some cases. Not very serious, I think. Still, that Act apparently allows for indefinite detention of non-citizens. While, personally, I have not heard of any serious abuses to date, the Act will probably need to be refined. Legislation to refine the Act has been submitted and is being worked on, I guess. For the most part, though, I believe, talk about the Act's restricting our civil liberties is alarmist. And it Europe, it's just assumed, I guess, that we've now got a police state here. To be fair, I think we'd have to say that the Patriot Act was a decent first cut at the problem, but that it will have to be improved. Personally, though, I can ensure Thijs that neither I nor anyone I know is under house arrest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_PATRIOT_Act


"Some argue that Turkey, being a secular state in the Islamic world, will have a moderating influence on Islam in Europe."

Well already Turks make up a large majority of the islamic population in many European states, do you think it has had a moderating effect so far?

Check these links:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0913/p07s02-woeu.html

http://w3fp.arizona.edu/mesassoc/Bulletin/white.htm


Ex-Christian: There is something you may not have understood about faith in general. Faith is not about conquest, or war, or enlarging the numbers of your flock, or gloating. It's about coming closer to God, to feel what Christians call "grace".

But there is no grace in your words, and no humility. Your words are shrill, full of anger, hate, gloating and fear. You speak nothing of love. You seem to think that only because you call yourself a Muslim, all the hate inside you is automatically justified. You talk like a man who thinks he is at war with the world, and I feel sorry for you.

The feelings you express here -- hate, fear, the desire for revenge against others -- is not the same thing as being a man of faith. You seem possessed by what Arabs call the nafs.

Has there been a bad experience in your past, which has made you bitter? Perhaps you should talk to someone about it.

As for the others here, I detect a lot of hate. Christianity is not about hate. Remember what Jesus said, not only to Christians but to everyone: "Do unto others as you would have them do to you." Treat others as you want to be treated.


Timing is everything:


PESHAWAR: Traders on Tuesday criticised the local police for detaining Eid card sellers on charges of selling vulgar and obscene cards. Qasim Hasrat, former president of the Frontier Printers and Publishers Association, told Daily Times that the shopkeepers were being harassed by the police in the name of a drive against selling vulgar Eid cards. He demanded the provincial government stop police from arresting Eid card sellers, as their business had nothing to do with obscenity. Zafar Khattak, Markaz-e-Tanzeem Tajiran provincial information secretary, said that the police took action against the shopkeepers under pressure from the local Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal (MMA) leaders. He said some incompetent MMA advisors to the provincial government were making the party unpopular among the masses. Mr Khattak said the shopkeepers sold items according to the customers’ demand but the MMA workers called the phrase Eid cards inscribed with “I love you” as vulgar. He said the harassment of traders would affect their business and no one would invest in the province.

However MMA leaders differed from the traders’ representatives, saying the shopkeepers had sold vulgar Eid cards. Haji Ehsanul Haq, MMA’s Peshawar district secretary general, told Daily Times that people voted for the MMA to purge obscenity and vulgarity from society. He said that the drive against obscenity was reflecting the wishes of the masses which had annoyed shopkeepers.


The Patriot Act is online for all to read.

And most of it was written under Janet Reno.

Ashcroft got a bad rap.


Gunnar, I think that what you say is true for 99.99% of us, but I guess there have been some abuses. I was just looking at the Wikipedia (admittedly, not infallible), but I think I am convinced now that there is room in the Patriot Act for abuse. The Wikipedia lists some cases. Not very serious, I think. Still, that Act apparently allows for indefinite detention of non-citizens

Actually, a study showed there have been no abuses. I don't believe there is a connection between detention of non-citizens and the patriot act. Any government has the right to detain enemy combatants in a time of war.


--It's against everything we stand for to take the same road as America. We do not want to create a society where every civilian is a suspect. We do not want to create a police controled society.---


Anyone been paying attention to Britain lately?

Please.

Samizdata has some informative stuff on occasion.


EC- you said the CIA World book - I went to the CIA world book. After as I said, Jenin, the hospital reports and other false info, why would I believe that site?

The bigger question is if those people actually had a choice, would they still be muslim????? And what kind of muslim will they be??? One day we will find out.


>> EC- you said the CIA World book

Sandy, I think your data was from 2002, while his was from 95.


--I know it must be very scary to think that third of the world are 'terrorists' and indeed coming after you :)))--

I stopped being scared on 10/5/01.

I'm pissed, a lot of Americans are. I really don't think you appreciate what that means. Americans don't go out and burn others' flags. Islam's ascendancy ended when Flight #93 chose to fight back. All this is is a few decades-long, bloody clean-up operation.

And from what's happened in the last week, the Dutch aren't so happy, either.

I would think a few of your comments here have given some pause. Reading Friday prayers and translated articles at MEMRI might start others to take a longer look.

When this is spouted off in the Brit papers, others might also begin to wonder if Islam is in the thrall of your whack-a-doo wing:

"...Imran Waheed, Hizb ut-Tahrir spokesman, said that UK Muslims “must be the voice of the Muslims of Fallujah against this brutal genocide and the silence of the spineless rulers of the Muslim world. The re-establishment of the Islamic Khilafah will end subservience to foreign colonialist powers.”

At some point in time, more and more people will take them at their word and act accordingly.


Thanks, Gunnar!

Off to dinner.


Jay wrote: we knew for a fact that "W" was going to find the responsible scum bags and kill them.

Yeah, scumbags like Osama bin Laden, for instance. And Ayman al-Zawahiri. They're all dead now. I guess.


Jan wrote: Absolutely! Islamofascistic terrorism is at least partially a result of long-time oppression from the kleptocracies that rule the Arab world.

It is also a result of those thug regimes trying, and to a large degree succeeding, in diverting rage away from themselves onto Israel and the US. "Blame the Jews" is a long-tested tactic for diverting oppressed people's anger away from the real oppressers.

And that's worth repeating.

Øyvind


That's why the Bush strategy of regime change is brilliant.

Maybe so. It's also why the Bush strategy of being friends with people like the king in Saudi-Arabia, the military ruler of Pakistan, the dictator of Kuwait, the hardly democratic leader of Egypt and the nutcase president of Turkmenistan, for instance, isn't that brilliant.

Bush lives in the world of "realpolitik", of course. But still the feeling they get in the Arab world is that "regime change" is something that happens to those who oppose the USA.

I hope the praiseworthy democracy initiatives launched by the US the last few years will continue, and that they will be funded properly. After all it wasn't a problem to find the money for the war.

Øyvind

Øyvind


Hey, ex-Christian- did you convert to islam because you had some daughters and you didn't want them educated? Or was it because you could buy a wife or own slaves? Or was it so that you could have sex with young boys? Just trying to find out which part of islam gets you excited.....


"That's why the Bush strategy of regime change is brilliant.

Maybe so. It's also why the Bush strategy of being friends with people like the king in Saudi-Arabia, the military ruler of Pakistan, the dictator of Kuwait, the hardly democratic leader of Egypt and the nutcase president of Turkmenistan, for instance, isn't that brilliant."


They all have to be handled at once? That's a bit of a chore even for the United States. I think one at a time will do just fine. As an English mathematician once pointed out - start at the beginning, and when you get to the end, stop.

That won't keep the Instant Gratification Generation happy, but I think the adults know that this is a problem which has been allowed to fester for years, and it could take a while to clean up.


Gunnar:
"Thanks Europe. We'll be thinking of you when our children die horrible deaths because of your nuanced, sophiticated and intelligent opinions which are also completely devoid of wisdom."
I think you should replace 'Europe' in that sentence with 'Bush'. Because your kids ARE dying this day.. In Iraq.


"They all have to be handled at once? That's a bit of a chore even for the United States. I think one at a time will do just fine. As an English mathematician once pointed out - start at the beginning, and when you get to the end, stop."
OK, we will see how many more of these nutcases Bush will handle, I think you will find out, that he is finished with 'spreading democracy'. In the future you will see Bush trying to make friends with Europe again, and do things multilaterally. Ending up with making the red-necks even more angry, because now that they have the taste for blood, they want more!


Sandy P . . .

You said: "I'm pissed, a lot of Americans are. I really don't think you appreciate what that means. Americans don't go out and burn others' flags. Islam's ascendancy ended when Flight #93 chose to fight back. All this is is a few decades-long, bloody clean-up operation."

My sentiments exactly.

"Islam's ascendancy ended when Flight #93 chose to fight back." I almost chose "Flight #93" as my nic but decided that it would wrong since I've never done anything courageous like those passengers did. But I wanted to honor them.

Eric Jensenholt, Norway . . .

You said: "Ex-Christian: There is something you may not have understood about faith in general. Faith is not about conquest, or war, or enlarging the numbers of your flock, or gloating. It's about coming closer to God, to feel what Christians call "grace"."

I agree. The same ideas are also true of Judaism.


Gunnar:
"Ben, I also have some exposure to both sides, but mostly to the US side. My theory is that contrary to popular myth, not all forms of democracy are equal. After I voted in the last norwegian election, I started a discussion about the idea that europeans aren't as democratic as the US version. This was quite controversial to Bjørn, and the discussion was quite intense (not sure how to find a link to it). To summarize: democracy is not a boolean, but can vary as to degree. It seems like compared to the US system, which has a lot more voting, and is a lot more granular, the european democracies have less voting. Thus, like you say, there is far more of a disconnect between euro govts and the people"

Okay, try looking at Switzerland for instance, they vote for even building new town halls.
Oh, and by the way Gunnar, your theory of people being either bad OR good from birth just don't cut it. Your basically condemning people this way. Even for my own sake, I am a very patient man, but reading some of the posts from the American posters here, makes me angry, and really makes me want a strong EU. And I bet you this is the way with many others reading as well. I voted no to EU last time around, but this time.. I'm voting a solid yes. Hopefully EU can be strong enough to stop the red-neck influence which so much dominate the American politics these days from spreading too much.


I believe I wrote: Bush lives in the world of "realpolitik", of course.. Maybe I just dreamt it all?

Anyway, it's a difference between not handling "them", and being good friends. Taking the Saudis as allies in the War on Terror... now, there's a story for the grandchildren.

My real point, though, is that Arabs see hypocrisy where Gunnar sees brilliance. And that this is what the States (and other countries) will have to address. So far, no good.

Øyvind

Øyvind


Boy, Allen, your panties are going to be in a real knot when we go take care of Iran's nuclear program.

So, what do you think of all those gay rednecks, hispanic rednecks, and blue-state rednecks who all voted for Bush? Kind of makes you wonder if maybe the world is a little bit more complex than "redneck biblethumpers" and "liberal gay baby aborters," doesn't it?


Dear Oyvind,

It is funny how the liberals world over whine about human rights, but when America actually goes to free a people and let them give democracy a try, the liberals whine the most. Oyvind should ask those still around from the Norweigan resistance if the lives lost fighting the Nazis were worth it. Freedom is not FREE.

Only a European would believe that it is far better to live enslaved to a dictator than to make sacrifices to live in Freedom. I suppose your family was Quislings?

When ex-Christian goes terrorist you better hope there is a U.S. Marine present to grab him by the neck and send him to a Guantanamo cage before he kills you just because you are not Muslim.

Everybody better pray that "W" is right, and that democracy will spread and have a calming effect on the Middle East. If the strategy doesn't work and terrorist attacks on U.S. soil continue the American people will demand the whole region be turned into a "free fire zone".

You are right, "W" is the first U.S. President to recognize that despotic regimes help to fester the worst of the Islamic religion. However, I don't see any European powers rushing to bring freedom to the oppressed. Oh, I forgot, the *spit* French *spit* are "liberating" the people of the Ivory Coast and protecting the world's cocoa supply.


Erik Jensenholt - what a lovely post - an island of peace in this tumultuous thread! :) Not to be the least bit disrespectful to you or "lecturing" in tone, but I wouldn't take ExC too seriously. He has the persona of a schoolboy with a lot of time on his hands - certainly he has the time for a lot of long winded posts. I'm still waiting for him to inform us of which Islamic paradise he's posting from - his parent's house in Rancho Palos Verdes CA, perhaps? His dorm room in a Northamptonshire, England boarding school? And perhaps, if he posts another twelve times or so, he'll eventually get round to explaining why it is, if superior muslims are so disgusted with and offended by western culture, they continue to...er...move in, in droves, and not leave? That would be a fascinating lecture.


Allan writes: "Hopefully EU can be strong enough to stop the red-neck influence which so much dominate the American politics these days from spreading too much."

Allan, what would you have the EU do in order to stop what you call "redneck" America? I am seriously interested. What concrete actions would you hope for from the EU?


Gill Doyle: agreed. There is precious little Europe can do to stop "redneck America". That's what's so amusing.

I'm just glad we got all those jihadists attracted to Fallujah so we can swat them like flies. There is definitely something to be said for the flypaper theory.


Allan: Just out of curiosity, how is the EU going to becom strong enough to have ANY real influence on international affairs, let alone be a balance against "US Rednecks?" European economies are stagnant. Their armed forces are a joke. Ridiculous labor and environmental laws discourage growth. Socialized medecine and the like increase taxes and reduce incentives TO work hard. Between all of the above Europe can barely scrape together enough cash to maintain it's current armed forces.

So, exactly HOW is the EU going to help solve ANY of those problems? Adding ANOTHER layer of largely unelected bureaucracy on top of what already exists isn't likely to help.

About the only good thing the EU brings is a unified currency. Now THAT is a damned good idea. At least in my opinion. (Though I did much prefer the look of Deutch Marks when I was in Germany... ah well)


“Let no social worker, psychologist or another member of the thought police tell us we cannot hate, that we have to turn the other cheek."—Theo Van Gogh’s mother

After the horror of WW2 the DUtch and many other West Europeans embraced a soft Marxism/left-liberalism. Now the lesson should be that such a philosophy is unworkable in the real world. iT is time to through out the silly idea that conservatism or even nationalism is equivalent to fascism.


Nancy, Ex-C said he is in Finland, so apparently he's a former Christian Finnish Muslim.

Nothing as sensible as a California wacko or an English eccentric. But certainly with the same - if not worse - neurotic obsessions.


Steve,

Quite obviously there is a difference between Nazi ideology based on racial supremacy and conservative (really depends on the location, and the nationalist's ideal national supremacy. Even if these three ideologies share certain views and characteristics.

But is it a huge mistake to ignore the differences between a liberal (empahsis on social and economic freedom) and a marxist (quite the opposite!). Whereas between these two, there is little if anything in common. The difference between a minimailistic approach and social engineering.

Cheers,
Dave.


For the benefit of Steve,

Disclaimer: I do not intend to insult any persons that hold any of the following ideologies. I can certainly understand why in many instances such beliefs would be held.

Liberalism: is a political current embracing several historical and present-day ideologies that claim defense of individual liberty as the purpose of government. It typically favors the right to dissent from orthodox tenets or established authorities in political or religious matter. A liberal is also a right-wing or classical liberal proponent of free markets and liberal social policy (freedom of association/speech). [As in Australia]


Soft Marxism/Social Democrat: a political ideology emerging in the late 19th and early 20th centuries from supporters of Marxism who believed that the transition to a socialist society could be achieved through democratic evolutionary rather than revolutionary means. During the early and mid-20th century, social democrats were in favor of stronger labor laws, nationalization of major industries, and a strong welfare state. [As in Germany, where many ex communists are involved in the SPD]


Marxism: Marxist ideologies tend to emphasize economic cooperation over economic competition; virtually all envision some sort of economic planning (many, but by no means all, favor central planning). All advocate placing at least some of the means of production -- and at least some of the distribution of goods and services -- into collective or cooperative ownership. [Cuba]


Nazi: Nationalsozialismus (National Socialist German Workers Party) praised the supremacy of the German race, and derided democracy, mutli-culturalism as weaknesses, while creating complete government control of finance and investment (allocation of credit), industry, and agriculture to form a command economy supportive of their territorial ambitions. [Nowhere]


Conservative: Opposition to rapid change in governmental and societal institutions. Is anti-ideological insofar as it emphasizes means (slow change) over ends (any particular form of government). [Australia, America etc..]

Nationalist: a concept of identity which members of a particular government, nation, society, or territory may collectively feel.


There's an interesting discussion going on at Vodkapundit about the fall of the Berlin Wall - 15 years yesterday YEAH! and the possibility that those rednecks are more well-traveled than the bluies.

What you're seeing today in the US is the beginning of the final shakeout of the failed ideologies of communism/socialism.

Bros. Judd is always an interesting site. Be warned, God is mentioned (my eyes! my eyes! They burn!!!!). But OJ has some really interesting articles.

Like this:

...not the fundamentalist vote, the pro-life vote nor the "traditional definition of marriage" vote that decided this election. It was Bush's progressive agenda that kept him in office. [...]

Bush's victory was due to the fact that nationally the majority of voters was tired of the status quo, tired of the knee-jerk conservatism of the left and wanted a progressive administration. Kerry wanted to take us back to the ideas, policies and attitudes that prevailed before the 9/11 attack -- to the days when the repeated attacks on America (the World Trade Center, the Kenyan and Tanzanian embassies, the Khobar Towers, the USS Cole) were treated as isolated criminal acts of a few international gang members in places far away....

----

In short, NO to the failed leftist policies of the late 60s and 70s.

The last 20-odd minutes of W's convention acceptance speech was the vision. He laid out the vision. Read it. The rest was SOTU - State of the Union - stuff.

He's turning US loose to do what we do best.

It's been said more than once that Europe is 30 years behind the US. No wonder you're miserable, you're stuck in the 70s. If you were happier, you wouldn't be sniping at us so incessantly.


--Taking the Saudis as allies in the War on Terror... now, there's a story for the grandchildren.--

Depends on which Saudis your taking.

It's amazing how ChimpHitler manages to be controlled not only by the Sauds, but by the JOOOOSSSS at the same time.


Agh, preview's my friend, preview's my friend, you're you're you're


--Maybe so. It's also why the Bush strategy of being friends with people like the king in Saudi-Arabia, the military ruler of Pakistan, the dictator of Kuwait, the hardly democratic leader of Egypt and the nutcase president of Turkmenistan, for instance, isn't that brilliant.

Bush lives in the world of "realpolitik", of course. But still the feeling they get in the Arab world is that "regime change" is something that happens to those who oppose the USA.

I hope the praiseworthy democracy initiatives launched by the US the last few years will continue, and that they will be funded properly. After all it wasn't a problem to find the money for the war.--

Boy are you getting pissy.

Pakland's doing the best he can under the circumstances. Since India and Pakland are finally talking and working on economic ties - BECAUSE OF W - busy hands are good.

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Kuwait was going to institute sharia around 9/11. They didn't. In fact, the ruling family is trying to liberalize but the parliament refuses.

Turkmenistan, small potatoes. Sounds like the if you can't do them all, you shouldn't do them at all argument. We just have to do enough for the rest to get the message.

Hosni's dying, they're supposed to be getting some guaranteed property rights soon and from the snippet I read last week, more democratic agitation is on the way. He's old, the Palis are about to have a family dispute and he wants no part of that.

As to "democracy initiatives" at least in Iraq they're getting over $45/b now, they can fund some of their own things.

If Europe were actually willing to put its' money where its' mouth is, it would go even faster. Heck, I'd be happy if Europe just paid its' fair share of prescription drug costs and eased the burden on our seniors.

But you won't cos you can't.



Sandy,

When it comes to failure of the communism, the left and Europe, you're dead right!

Dave.


I'm pissed, a lot of Americans are. I really don't think you appreciate what that means. Americans don't go out and burn others' flags. Islam's ascendancy ended when Flight #93 chose to fight back. All this is is a few decades-long, bloody clean-up operation.

See, this is what I love about Americans. If UBL had one once of brains in that big fat mellon of his, he'd be living the good life, in Southern California's san-fernando valley, planning attack after attack against Europe. The Europeans would be begging his holiness's forgiveness, and he could blow whole Europeans cities up for minor infractions of Sharia. And then he and Zarqawi could laugh maniacally at their subjects.

But nooooa, he had to attack the United States of America, awaken the tiger, and fill him with a terrible resolve. Now, instead of sipping tea on the Islamic riviera, with french servants, life has been reduced to hiding in caves, running desperately from one shanty hiding place to another, with those relentless americans with night vision goggles, and constant machine gun fire, satellites tracking their movements, drones hovering all the time.

All because of wonderful people with character and backbone, like Sandy P.


Yeah, scumbags like Osama bin Laden, for instance. And Ayman al-Zawahiri. They're all dead now. I guess.

Who knows, but that's the difference between wisdom and endlessly nuanced sophisticated and intelligent opinions that in the end, translate to appeasement

When a rat in a basement full of rats bites and kills your child, a wise parent would get rid of all the rats, not just the one that did the deed. That's why the US attacked Germany, after Japan attacked the US. That's why Bush wanted to be fuzzy on exactly who was responsible.


Bush lives in the world of "realpolitik", of course. But still the feeling they get in the Arab world is that "regime change" is something that happens to those who oppose the USA.

Of course, see the "rules for dictators" explained earlier.


I think you should replace 'Europe' in that sentence with 'Bush'. Because your kids ARE dying this day.. In Iraq.

What planet are you from? Fully grown adult volunteers, are our heroes, as they enthusiatically fight the evil there, instead of it facing our first responders and citizens here. This is the truth that your anti-american zeal blinds you to.

If Zarqawi wasn't fighting there, he would planning attacks in the US. It's so great for us and so stupid for a rag-tag bunch of amateurs to actually fight the best trained troops in the world, with complete control of the air.

Two theories: 1) he really needs the services of Dr. Germ and Dr. Anthrax and he really thought the Americans would be so stupid as to give them up with all those beheadings.

2) It reveals the state sponsorship of these groups. Although not in Al-Qaeda's interest, it is in Iran and Syria's best interest that the terrorists give the US as much trouble as possible, so that there will not be the political will to take them on.


Okay, try looking at Switzerland for instance, they vote for even building new town halls. Oh, and by the way Gunnar, your theory of people being either bad OR good from birth just don't cut it. Your basically condemning people this way. Even for my own sake, I am a very patient man, but reading some of the posts from the American posters here, makes me angry, and really makes me want a strong EU. And I bet you this is the way with many others reading as well. I voted no to EU last time around, but this time.. I'm voting a solid yes. Hopefully EU can be strong enough to stop the red-neck influence which so much dominate the American politics these days from spreading too much.

Good for Switzerland. And their people seem calm, which proves my point.

I didn't say from birth. I'm saying that good and bad is about character, which takes time to build and cultivate. If a person has a rude experience, and because of this, he decides to go out and become a terrorist, then he was all along, and was just looking for an excuse.

EU? Go ahead, make our day. If you actually don't want the EU, then you're just cutting off you nose to spite your face. If you choose the EU just to annoy the americans, then you will be disappointed. Why would americans oppose the EU? It must be maddening to be in your position. If you want to stop the spread of 'redneck' ideas, you will have to come up with better ones, or arguments as to why they are wrong. From what I see so far, the 'rednecks' are in the clear, and contemplating shifting into 2nd gear, while your car is sputtering and coughing.

Like many Europeans realized after the bush victory (and I pointed out a few days ago), "I guess this means we'll have to get our economy moving". So, think about that for a moment. The Euro leaders were willing to let europe stagnate, as long as the Americans were also held back. As though American misery would somehow make Euro misery more tolerable.


Anyway, it's a difference between not handling "them", and being good friends. Taking the Saudis as allies in the War on Terror... now, there's a story for the grandchildren.

My real point, though, is that Arabs see hypocrisy where Gunnar sees brilliance. And that this is what the States (and other countries) will have to address. So far, no good.

The fact is that the Saudi royals are businessmen. They certainly aren't the ones attacking the US, their best customer. See Rules for Dictatorship (wish I had the link). Besides, it's doubtful that the hijackers were even Saudis. It's brilliant strategy to remove state sponsors of terror, and to put in place the one mechanism that will prevent that area from becoming a hot spot again. The US is not on a mission to replace every dictatorship with a democracy. But Iraq, as the nexus of terror, was a great move. The main terror states all border each other: Syria, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, and Pakistan. Regime change in Afghanistan and Iraq, diplomatic trickery with Pakistan. Now, Iran has democracies on either side. Syria also has two fronts, Israel and Iraq. Hypocrisy is saying one thing and doing another. Anyone who listens to Bush knows that he is doing exactly what he said he would do.


Only a European would believe that it is far better to live enslaved to a dictator than to make sacrifices to live in Freedom. I suppose your family was Quislings?

Ouch, that's kind of below the belt. But hey, this is a good opportunity for øyvind to appeal to the moderates of Minnesota.

Jay, what happened up there in new scandinavia? I thought you were going to bring it on home for Bush. It was close, which isn't bad for that area.


But is it a huge mistake to ignore the differences between a liberal (empahsis on social and economic freedom) and a marxist (quite the opposite!). Whereas between these two, there is little if anything in common. The difference between a minimailistic approach and social engineering.

Yes, we're getting mixed up on terminology. Of course, your use of "liberal" is the correct one, referring to classic liberalism. In fact, it was these ideas that animated the american founding fathers. However, socialists in america took on the name "liberal", since they knew socialism wouldn't sell. This deception of theirs has ruined the word for us. So, now, if you replace "liberal" in your words with "socialist", it certainly makes sense to connect socialism with marxism.


>> Nazi: [Nowhere]

Ahh, a red herring, since you defined it as German. Fascism was in Italy and Japan, and can be found various places today. The Baathist parties are fascist, in fact I remember that Saddamm had a big portrait of hitler in one of his palaces.

It's fun to shut up war protesters with "so, let me see, you support nazi-like fascism". They are speechless: "like, ahh, what do you mean man, are like, you some kind of nut". A war protester human shield went to Iraq pre-war. He entered in Kuwait, and eventually made it across to Jordan a changed man. The first words he said were "Bush is right, we got take this regime down". He explained that everywhere he went, when people found out he was protesting the coming war, just about everyone in the village would take him aside, recount horror story after horror story about relatives killed by Saddam. The amazing thing is that he was so clueless that he needed to go there to see the obvious truth. But he is still ahead of some people in this forum, who still can't. "Some people never see the light, til it shines through bullet holes".


Gunnar,

I don't dispute what you've said concerning Nazism and in terms of liberalism I want to be known as a classic American founder style (certainly some great men and thinkers there) liberal!

Cheers
Dave


Let's be honest: Most Muslims in Europe are not assimilated, nor do they have any intention of assimilating into societies that cannot and will not accept them. Islam is antithetical to the societies of post-Enlightenment Europe, and vice versa. It's like oil and water; they won't mix.

Europe faces a very real crisis caused by foolish immigration policies and low birth rates among native European populations, which are causing the percentage of people with liberal, enlightened values in their societies into a constant and accelerating decline. Europeans foolishly forgot their own history of fighting centuries-long wars to keep from being overrun by Muslims. Five hundred years after the Reconquista, you now have a stealth Reconquista in reverse. Why should the Muslims fight wars to overrun Europe when the Europeans are willing to open the gates and put out the welcome mat for them? There was a REASON that your forefathers fought to stem the Muslim tides, but your governments forgot this.


Gunnar,

"It's fun to shut up war protesters with "so, let me see, you support nazi-like fascism". "

It realy is hilarious. In our cicilization we have the last centuries been willing to die for freedom and democrasy. Millions indeed have. The "freedomfighters" in Iraq seems to be willing to die in the fight AGAINST democrasy. I can`t figure out these arabs. I don`t get it, my IQ is too low.


I like to keep separate things separate, but the phrasing of Bjorn's post mixes up anti-Moslem vigilante action (which I completely and unambiguously oppose) and a serious discussion of immigration/assimilation issues.

One big problem, as I perceive it, is that there is a bloc of western european democracies that tried to maintain that they were not countries that accepted immigrants long after all evidence to the contrary was clear. Even poor (relatively), backward (relatively) Poland is a country with immigrants now (though the lack of a social safety net means they're more entrepreneurial than in the west), so I can only imagine what western europe is like.

I'll set out some principles:

1. Immigrants need to assimilate to a certain degree. They need to learn the language of the country well enough to hold down a job and keep informed through the local press.

2. They need to make sure their children go to school and are more assimilated than they are (not completely, just more than the parents). If the immigrant children don't prefer the new host language to the home language, for example, then something is wrong. If they are ignorant of the host country's history and social mores (or do not accept them) then something is wrong.

3. Immigrants have to adapt themselves to the legal system of the host country. Traditional problem solving mechanisms might be okay for disputes within the immigrant community that do not conflict with the national legal system, but they need to realize that in disputes with outsiders, they'll have to use the host legal system.

4. Many "temporary" immigrants don't leave. This is the normal situation. If you import a bunch of "temporary" workers, a majority will prefer to stay, especially if they establish families in the host country.

5. Welfare systems are meant for those that truly can't cope with the demands of modern society and/or find themselves in a temporary bad situation. It is not a mechanism for supporting large families and family "reunification". Also, welfare involves a trade off of individual autonomy. If you're getting welfare payments, you agree to certain restrictions on your activities that do not apply to those not receiving said payments.

6. The first generation born in the host country should be employable at a higher level than their parents. If this is not true, then something is wrong.

7. The national law of the host country takes precedence over traditional customs and _religious practices_ of the immigrant community. If the immigrant does not agree with this, they have no business staying in the country.

I may be leaving out a few points, if so, I'd welcome additions. I'd also like some discussion of concrete steps countries can take to ammeliorate problems already created and to prevent similar occurences in the future.
It looks like some degree of immigration is necessary for western Europe (the debate is how much, not whether or not it's necessary).
One option might be competition, an immigration program for Latin Americans (a much bigger commitment than NAfricans) and selected Asian countries (like Vietnam, maybe India) might encourage some of the less competitive immigrants toward more assimilation.


A very good article about this situation in the Netherlands: http://www.nationalreview.com/ledeen/ledeen200411101620.asp

A quote from the article: "As things stand, the Europeans are so enthralled by cultural relativism and political correctness that they are totally unwilling to challenge any idea, even the jihadists' program of creating a theocratic state within Western civil society. The terrorist groups consider themselves autonomous, a community of believers opposed to the broader community of unbelievers and apostates."


>> "freedomfighters" in Iraq seems to be willing to die in the fight AGAINST democrasy.

That's why that despite what lefties say, "freedom fighter" is not a relative term. You have to be actually fighting for "freedom" to be called "freedom fighters". These guys are rag-tag fascist insurgent terrorists.


More lies from Islam and willing transnational progressives.

Islamophobic agenda to talk about those christian fascists who so far killed more than 100,000 muslims in Iraq !!

Reality:

The 100,000 number cited by Les Roberts in the Lancet was obtained by extrapolating from anecdotal reports (none of these alleged deaths actually confirmed) from such a small sample that it could have been (using this dubious methodology) anywhere from 8,000 to 194,000.


I've finally gotten the site of de Volkskrant, in my opinion the best Dutch newspaper, to cooperate with me. And what do I find?

Well, while churches, mosques and schools are put to fire and bombed in the Netherlands, Lijst Pim Fortuyn-top S. Moleveld was arrested for sending death threaths to himself.

De Volkskrant writes (my translation):

S. Moleveld was arrested by the police in Rotterdam wednesday. This was confirmed by a spokesman for the judicial office Thursday. The Public Prosecution Service suspects Moleveld of sending a false threath to his own party. By fax he threathened himself and the parliament member Herben. As a sender he gave the name of an Islamic group

Øyvind


nilsr, oslo

''It realy is hilarious. In our cicilization we have the last centuries been willing to die for freedom and democrasy. Millions indeed have. The "freedomfighters" in Iraq seems to be willing to die in the fight AGAINST democrasy. I can`t figure out these arabs. I don`t get it, my IQ is too low.''


Only fools believe the illegal war against Iraq was for democrasy !


Sandy P.

''The bigger question is if those people actually had a choice, would they still be muslim????? And what kind of muslim will they be??? One day we will find out.''


You know Sandy, I earlier asked a question in which no ISLAMOPHOBE dared to answer:

' If Muslims really wanted to convert out of Islam but afraid to do so because of the ' alleged' death penalty, how come they are not converting out of Islam once they in Europe or the US ???? '

There are around 40 million Muslim in Europe, what we see is those muslims holding Islam dear to their heart, they have all the freedom to become non muslims but instead we are seeing them becoming more pious muslims and indeed spreading Islam among the locals !!!

You see Sandy, you fail to realize what Islam means for Muslims, I recall the muslims in Al Andalus after the fall of Granada in 1492 AD and how they prefered to leave and even die rather than convert to christianity.

What we are seeing Sandy is the amazing spread of Islam in the heart of Europe and America:


Turning Muslim in Texas

George W Bush may be backed by Christian fundamentalists but in his home state of Texas, Islam is the latest big draw. The Bible belt is transferring its allegiance to the Qur’an
http://www.channel4.com/culture/microsites/B/believeitornot/texas1.html


Amazing this great Islam, Islam only prospers in the time of hardship and danger:

''They (the disbelievers) want to extinguish Allâh's Light(Islâm) with their mouths, but Allâh will not allow except that His Light should be perfected even though the disbelievers hate it.'' The Noble Quran 9:32



Gill Doyle, California

"On July 28, Princeton historian Bernard Lewis told the conservative Hamburg-based daily Die Welt that Europe would be Islamic by the end of this century "at the very latest"."


SO WHAT ? Europe was pagan and then became christian and then now it is hedonestic secular atheist entity, no one objected ! so why this moaning and incitment against Islam ?

Perhaps Allah Almighty in his infinite majesty and wisdom wants to save those poor ethically corrupt morally bankrupt Europeans from totall abyss by granting them the light of Islam.

Islam might be also the next American religion:

Islam: The Next American Religion?

The U.S. began as a haven for Christian outcasts. But what religion fits our current zeitgeist? The answer may be Islam.

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/69/story_6982.html

Is this nuts? And if it is a possibility, is it a problem?


It is wrong to attack schools and random Muslims like this. Period. Unfortunately, I fear we are entering a period of increased confrontation. It may not be the last time we see this.


lindenen

''I don't think Islam is a disease. I think it's a fig leaf for Arab Imperialism. Just in the same way communism was a fig leaf for Russian imperialism.''


Arab imperialism through Islam ? do you know the percentage of Muslims who are actually arabs ?

Only 13% of Muslims worldwide are actually Arabs.


Ex-Christian, now Muslim:

"SO WHAT ? Europe was pagan and then became christian and then now it is hedonestic secular atheist entity, no one objected ! so why this moaning and incitment against Islam ?"

I suppose it's because they don't see Islam as a positive influence. It's alien. How do you think Islamic countries would respond to a huge influx of Christians or pagans?


Ex-Christian, now Muslim,

On 2004-11-09 you said “Time for your scot to ditch FOX NEWS and all the crap you hear in your media , go to your local bookshop, buy a copy of the Noble Quran, read it by yourself and judge.”

That sounded fair enough, so I visited the Library , borrowed the Quran and found the following quotes. I can not find comparable instructions being given to followers of any other religion. Please explain. I have included chapter and verse for your reference.
Thank you.

Scott S

Quotes from the Quran:

"Make war upon such of those to whom the Scriptures have been given as believe not in God, or in the last day, and who forbid not that which God and His Apostle have forbidden, and who profess not the profession of the truth, until they pay tribute out of hand, and they be humbled. The Jews say, 'Ezra (Ozair) is a son of God'; and the Christians say, 'The Messiah is a son of God'. Such the sayings in their mouths! They resemble the sayings of the Infidels of old! God do battle with them! How are they misguided!..He it is who hath sent His Apostle with the Guidance and a religion of the truth, that He may make it victorious over every other religion, albeit they who assign partners to God be averse from it." (Sura 9:29-33).

"Believers! wage war against such of the infidels as are your neighbours, and let them find you rigorous: and know that God is with those who fear him." (Sura 9:124).

"When ye encounter the infidels, strike off their heads till ye have made a great slaughter among them, and of the rest make fast the fetters." (Sura 47:4).

"Be not fainthearted then; and invite not the infidels to peace when ye have the upper hand: for God is with you, and will not defraud you of the recompense of your works." (Sura 47:37).

"And when the sacred months are passed, kill those who join other gods with God wherever ye shall find them; and seize them, besiege them, and lay wait for them with every kind of ambush: but if they shall convert, and observe prayer, and pay the obligatory alms, then let them go their way, for God is Gracious, Merciful." (Sura 9:5).

"O Prophet! make war on the infidels and hypocrites, and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their abode! and wretched the passage to it!" (Sura 66:9).



lindenen

''Sadly, I think Europe will have to resort to mass deportations oen day. You should eliminate all welfare benefits and then you should offer Muslim immigrants some money to leave. ''


Only in your dreams, this is my land, I was born here and I am PROUD MUSLIM.

Your words about deporting muslims sounds like that of HITLER in the 1940s, are you sure you are not one of those skinhead neo nazis ??

After all, we are the ones who will pay your pension and your 'beer' once your family dump you in an eldery home to spend your retirement.


Ex-Christian -- do you believe that you are an effective emissary for Islam? Do you believe that you are persuading non-believers to embrace or better tolerate Islam? Is it your intention to persuade? I am not scolding. I am just curious.

By the way, when I quoted Bernard Lewis, I did not say that Islam's conquest of Europe was a bad thing. You'll see that I asked, "Is this nuts?" By that I meant -- is Lewis correct? Then I asked -- if he is correct, is this a problem? I expressed no opinion myself about Lewis' prediction.


Ex-C

"Only fools believe the illegal war against Iraq was for democrasy !"

The choise now is democrasy how ever you wiew the causes of the war. If the Iraqi people denounce it, it will result in an endless circle of blodshed and death. Is that your hopes for the Iraqi people, honestly?


Europe is infested by outsiders who hate Europeans and European values. These infesters are multiplying themselves through immigration and procreation. There is a small window of opportunity for controlling the infestation, if Europeans have the cojones. Without rapid action Europe becomes Eurabia and civilization loses.


"After all, we are the ones who will pay your pension and your 'beer' once your family dump you in an eldery home to spend your retirement."

As if, the way you folks weigh down on our walfare budgets. A recent Norwegian study concluded that imigration from nonwestern countries is a net burden. I`l find the reference if you want it.


Via Instapundit:

NPR'S ANNE GARRELS IS REPORTING that Sarin nerve gas has been found in Fallujah. Stay tuned.

---

NPR is National Public Radio, over 800 stations and not exactly known as a right-wing outfit.

In short, it lists left.


Nilsr writes: "The choise now is democrasy how ever you wiew the causes of the war."

Well, that seems like a very good point, Nilsr. The problem, though, is that you cannot get a critic of this war to accept that the Coalition is seriously espousing democracy in Iraq. Our critics insist that America intends to manipulate Iraq whether or not its government is democratically elected. They think that our real motive is to steal Iraq's oil and occupy the Middle East. I don't think that this war's critics will recognize the legitimacy of a democratically elected Iraqi government -- even if the elections in January go off reasonably well. They will insist that it is a U.S. puppet. There will be no convincing them of anything else. People have made up their minds.


"After all, we are the ones who will pay your pension and your 'beer' once your family dump you in an eldery home to spend your retirement."

By living off of welfare? If Moslem immigrants were hard working and a net gain to the economy, they'd be far more welcome. But according to a lot of what I've read, in many countries, they're a drain, and the generation born in western europe is less adjusted to life in the host country than their parents.
Again, I think those countries that need a modest inflow of immigrants should be looking to Latin America and Asia (and Christian sub-saharan Africa).


Ex-Christian:

"You know Sandy, I earlier asked a question in which no ISLAMOPHOBE dared to answer:

' If Muslims really wanted to convert out of Islam but afraid to do so because of the ' alleged' death penalty, how come they are not converting out of Islam once they in Europe or the US ???? '"

I think that's false reasoning. The real question is why Muslims immigrate to non-Muslim countries in such large numbers. Let's pretend for a minute that Islam truly is "the way". Why then are Islamic countries not the lights of the world?


Gill,
it realy has striken me how large parts of Europe seems to care less of the Iraqi people than of the possibility of punching US in the nose.


It's not just European values, Lars, it's Western.

Slightly different thing.

That's why the US is first on the list. They don't think you guys have what it takes, and your demographics are against you.

America is trending younger.


Not only the light of the world, the economic powerhouse?

---

Also, EC, here's a thought. Christianity is seen as the white man's religion. AND - when one comes to the West, one doesn't have to pray 5x a day, one can tailor one's religion to one's wishes, which is another problem, eh?

Islam is not.

Generally, blacks are Christians in America. Among the prison population, however........muslim. Gotta be "against da man!"


Nilsr writes: "It realy has striken me how large parts of Europe seems to care less of the Iraqi people than of the possibility of punching US in the nose."

Exactly my feeling. I get the sense that too many of our opponents actually HOPE for civilian casualties. They seem almost gleefully to glom onto the Lancet's bogus figures about Iraqi casualties. It seems they're hoping for evidence that America is the ogre they have always believed it is. What happens to the Iraqi people is not important to them apparently. Of course, there are genuinely humane people in the anti-war camp. I believe that. I think they are just invested, intellectually, in refusing to believe that America actually does wish to promote democracy in Iraq. They can't get past their suspicion of the U.S.


Gill,
But democratic elections, all criterias fullfilled, can`t be ignored. What realy interests me the most, though, is how the world will wiew this in twenty years from now.


Scott S. California

''Ex-Christian, now Muslim,

On 2004-11-09 you said “Time for your scot to ditch FOX NEWS and all the crap you hear in your media , go to your local bookshop, buy a copy of the Noble Quran, read it by yourself and judge.”

That sounded fair enough, so I visited the Library , borrowed the Quran and found the following quotes. I can not find comparable instructions being given to followers of any other religion. Please explain. I have included chapter and verse for your reference.
Thank you.''


Sure , I will address the verses you posted one by one, also I will address your statement about ' I can not find comparable instructions being given to followers of any other religion'

So let's start:

"Make war upon such of those to whom the Scriptures have been given as believe not in God, or in the last day, and who forbid not that which God and His Apostle have forbidden, and who profess not the profession of the truth, until they pay tribute out of hand, and they be humbled. The Jews say, 'Ezra (Ozair) is a son of God'; and the Christians say, 'The Messiah is a son of God'. Such the sayings in their mouths! They resemble the sayings of the Infidels of old! God do battle with them! How are they misguided!..He it is who hath sent His Apostle with the Guidance and a religion of the truth, that He may make it victorious over every other religion, albeit they who assign partners to God be averse from it." (Sura 9:29-33).''


To truly grasp the significance of this verse, we need to understand a couple of things about the Qur’an: First, it is the collection of verses revealed to Prophet Muhammad (peace be on him) in the different contexts of his life. Often, the revelation came when the Prophet actually needed divine guidance concerning a specific situation. The above verse among others, is an example of this. For this reason, knowledge of the context of revelation is absolutely necessary for the proper understanding of any verse in the Qur’an.

Surat At-Tawbah ( chapter 9 ) was revealed to the Prophet in a situation when the pagans were at war with the newly organized Muslim Ummah (nation); and the Muslims were fighting them for survival. One of the issues dealt with in this verse is how to treat those who break existing treaties and the Muslims, specifically, are asked to fight those who break treaties, until they were thoroughly routed or they repented and agreed to follow the conditions imposed on them, which will ultimately be for the good of all.

Jizyah is a much misunderstood tax the non-Muslims were asked to pay to the government in lieu of the Muslims’ payment of zakah. By paying the jizyah non-Muslims were guaranteed protection and rights including the right to worship as they chose, as long as they did not conspire against the Islamic authority. This can be equated nowadays to ‘nationality’ or ‘citizenship’. It is important to note that many times throughout Islamic history Christians and Jews opted to pay the jizyah and live under Muslim authority rather than the other options available to them under the various empires and ruling bodies. They knew that under Islam their humanity, rights and so on were respected and protected as long as they fell in line with the boundaries established by Islam.

Under an Islamic government, Muslim and non-Muslim citizens are free to practice their religion and both should obey the laws of the land. If the government levied a tax only on its Muslim subjects, it would be unjust, as all are equal under the government. At the same time, it would certainly be unjust to impose zakah on the non-Muslims; so a new tax called jizyah was introduced to balance the situation. All of us know that any government can legitimately ask its citizens to obey its laws; and a rebellious defiance of the laws of the land is not condoned by any government.

We should remember that the Muslims were a small band of people facing total annihilation, so the Prophet was compelled to fight for existence; for survival. He was a model for his followers even in fighting a last-ditch battle. Those who believe in “the Son of God who was betrayed, bound, beaten, and crucified” obviously have difficulty in accepting a fighting prophet, who, with righteous indignation, stands up for truth and justice. Islam does not believe in a God Who was tortured, killed and left helpless to be defeated by his enemies! Where is the mercy of God, when He demands the sacrifice of an innocent person to atone for the sins of others? Can He not choose to forgive mankind Himself without exacting retribution?

Islam is a very practical religion that encompasses all aspects of human life then and now. Therefore, when the Muslims were organized for the first time into a community in those lawless times, there had to be laws governing matters of social organization, and even rules for battle. We cannot imagine a situation where fighting is completely ruled out either. Let us examine the verse in question with the foregoing in mind. The immediate context of the above verse is that of a “war in progress” and not a general directive. It was an attempt to motivate Muslims to defend themselves. It was in view of the extreme danger the Muslims were facing, that they were permitted to fight in the first place.

The Qur’an says:
*{To those against whom war is made, permission is given [to fight], because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid;- [They are] those who have been expelled from their homes in defiance of right,- [for no cause] except that they say, "our Lord is Allah”. Did not Allah check one set of people by means of another, there would surely have been pulled down monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, in which the name of Allah is commemorated in abundant measure. Allah will certainly aid those who aid his [cause];- for verily Allah is Full of strength, Exalted in might, [Able to enforce His will].}* (Al-Hajj 22:39-41)

*{Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not transgressors. And slay them wherever you catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter…}* (Al-Baqarah 2:190-191)

It is clear from the above verses that when Muslims fight, it must be for truth and justice. Furthermore, the Prophet (peace be upon him) instructed his followers to maintain the utmost discipline even in battles, including avoiding injury to the innocent and using only the minimum force needed.

Even a cursory study of the Qur'an must convince an objective student, that Islam does not permit, condone or promote violence. On the contrary, it abhors violence and allows it only in self-defense, and certainly not to obtain oil and other forms of material wealth. Those who blame the Qur’an for permitting the Muslims to fight can turn the pages of the Bible and see how Joshua at Jehovah's command: “left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the Lord God of Israel commanded” (Joshua 10:40).


"Believers! wage war against such of the infidels as are your neighbours, and let them find you rigorous: and know that God is with those who fear him." (Sura 9:124).


?? I checked 9:124 and it does not say what you posted, this is what 9:124 says:

9:124. ''And whenever there comes down a Sûrah (chapter from the Qur'ân), some of them (hypocrites) say: "Which of you has had his Faith increased by it?" As for those who believe, it has increased their Faith, and they rejoice''

http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/noble/nobe009.htm


"When ye encounter the infidels, strike off their heads till ye have made a great slaughter among them, and of the rest make fast the fetters." (Sura 47:4).


I think it is more fit to post the WHOLE above verse, here it is:

''So, when you meet those who disbelieve smite at their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, i.e. take them as captives). Thereafter (is the time) either for generosity (i.e. free them without ransom), or ransom (according to what benefits Islâm), until the war lays down its burden. but if it had been Allâh's Will, He Himself could certainly have punished them (without you). But (He lets you fight), in order to test you, some with others. But those who are killed in the Way of Allâh, He will never let their deeds be lost''


Islam is very clear, when someone wage war on muslims, when someone attack and try to kill muslims, then muslims dont turn the other cheek, Muslims should fight and crush the aggressors, I think it is common sense, you see, Islam is realistic religion.

As you can see from the above verse, the second part talks about how to be merciful with the aggressors: ''Thereafter(after the aggressors have been defeated) the time is either for generosity (i.e. free them without ransom), or ransom (according to what benefits Islâm), until the war lays down its burden.

I think any reasonable person inculding you will fight any theif or intrudor who try to breaks in your house, will you let a criminal steal your home and harm wife and your childern while you are watching ?? I DONT THINK SO.


"Be not fainthearted then; and invite not the infidels to peace when ye have the upper hand: for God is with you, and will not defraud you of the recompense of your works." (Sura 47:37).

?? Again, I checked 47:37 and it does not say what you posted, here it is:

''If He were to ask you of it, and press you, you would covetously withhold, and He will bring out all your (secret) ill-wills. '' 47:37

http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/noble/nobe047.htm

"And when the sacred months are passed, kill those who join other gods with God wherever ye shall find them; and seize them, besiege them, and lay wait for them with every kind of ambush: but if they shall convert, and observe prayer, and pay the obligatory alms, then let them go their way, for God is Gracious, Merciful." (Sura 9:5).


This verse 9:5 is very interesting, because to understand it, you need to read 9:4 and then 9:6 so let me post 9:4 :

''Except those of the Mushrikûn ( pagans ) with whom you have a treaty, and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor have supported anyone against you. So fulfill their treaty to them to the end of their term. Surely Allâh loves the pious''

The above is talking about a TREATY with the pagans who were fighting the early muslims, 9:5 is instructing muslims about what they should do after those pagans broke the treaty and indeed killed many muslims.

9:6 is however the MOST INTERESTING and the verse that you wont find in any anti muslim hate site, let me post 9:6

'' And if anyone of the (polytheists, idolaters, pagans, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allâh) seeks your protection then grant him protection, so that he may hear the Word of Allâh (the Qur'ân), and then escort him to where he can be secure, that is because they are men who know not. ''

Do you realize the implication of 9:6 ? I am amazed you passed over this verse !


"O Prophet! make war on the infidels and hypocrites, and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their abode! and wretched the passage to it!" (Sura 66:9).''


verse 66:9 does not say the above, this is what it says:

''O Prophet (Muhammad )! Strive hard against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be severe against them, their abode will be Hell, and worst indeed is that destination.'' 66:9

Prophet Muhammad was instructed to ' strive' against those who were plotting against muslims, I think it is very important to understand the early history of Islam and how the early Muslims were threatened with their own existence.

I am really amazed you did not catch any verse in the noble quran that really teachs mercy and love toward the others who are non muslims, let me give you small sample:

2:256 There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is All Hearing and Knowing.

16:82 But if they turn away from you, (O Prophet remember that) your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message (entrusted to you).

6:107 Yet if God had so willed, they would not have ascribed Divinity to aught besides him; hence, We have not made you their keeper, nor are you (of your own choice) a guardian over them.

4:79, 80 (Say to everyone of them,) 'Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have (O Prophet) sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper."


17:53, 54 And tell my servants that they should speak in a most kindly manner (unto those who do not share their beliefs). Verily, Satan is always ready to stir up discord between men; for verily; Satan is mans foe .... Hence, We have not sent you (Unto men O Prophet) with power to determine their Faith.

21:107 to 109 (O Prophet?) 'We have not sent you except to be a mercy to all mankind:" Declare, "Verily, what is revealed to me is this, your God is the only One God, so is it not up to you to bow down to Him?' But if they turn away then say, "I have delivered the Truth in a manner clear to one and all, and I know not whether the promised hour (of Judgment) is near or far."

22:67 To every people have We appointed ceremonial rites (of prayer) which they observe; therefore, let them not wrangle over this matter with you, but bid them to turn to your Lord (since that is the main objective of religion). You indeed are rightly guided. But if they still dispute you in this matter, (then say,) `God best knows (the value of) what you do."

88:21, 22; also see 24:54 And so, (O Prophet!) exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.

48:28 He it is Who has sent forth His Messenger with the (task of spreading) Guidance and the Religion of Truth, to the end that tie make it prevail over every (false) religion, and none can bear witness to the Truth as God does.

36:16, 17 (Three Messengers to their people)Said (the Messengers), "Our Sustainer knows that we have indeed been sent unto you, but we are not bound to more than clearly deliver the Message entrusted to us.'

39:41 Assuredly, We have sent down the Book( The Quran ) to you in right form for the good of man. Whoso guided himself by it does so to his own advantage, and whoso turns away from it does so at his own loss. You certainly are not their keeper.

42:6, 48 And whoso takes for patrons others besides God, over them does God keep a watch. Mark, you are not a keeper over them. But if they turn aside from you (do not get disheartened), for We have not sent you to be a keeper over them; your task is but to preach ....

64:12 Obey God then and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away (no blame shall attach to our Messenger), for the duty of Our Messenger is just to deliver the message.

67:25, 26 And they ask, "When shall the promise be fulfilled if you speak the Truth?" Say, "The knowledge of it is verily with God alone, and verily I am but a plain warner."

60:8 Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.

60:9 Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong.


And now to your very interesting statement:

''I can not find comparable instructions being given to followers of any other religion''

Let me make small comparsion between the Noble Quran and the Bible ( since I was ex christian ) to find out which book really promotes killing and terrorism:

let us check how many times the word Sword was mentioned in the bible and let us compare it with how many times the word sword mentioned in the Quran:

The Bible:

407 times

http://www.biblegateway.com/bible?language=english

The Noble Quran:

0

WAR

In the bible ?? STAGGERING 867 times

In the Noble Quran ?? only 36 times !!


KILL

In the bible: STAGGERING 480 times
In the Noble Quran: 31 times !!!

And now some really ' peaceful ' verses from the bible:

EZEKIEL 9:4-6 The Lord commands: "... slay old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women ...."

2KI NGS2:23-24 Forty-two children are mauled and killed, presumably according to the will of God, for having jeered at a man of God.

2KINGS 19:35 An angel of the Lord kills 185,000 men.

PSALMS 144:1 God is praised as the one who trains hands for war and fingers for battle

EZEKIEL 23:25,47 God is going to slay the sons and daughters of those who were whores.

HOSEA 13:16 "They shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up."

MATTHEW 11:21-24 Jesus curses [the inhabitants of] three cities who were not sufficiently impressed with his great works.


I advice you to carry on reading the Quran, read about how Islam came to be, read about prophet Muhammad ( from Islamic sources not from hate sources ) and then if you have any more questions, by all means, I will be more than pleased to answer.

Here is some good sites:

http://www.harunyahya.com

http://www.beconvinced.com



Ex-C:

Don't forget to quote your source!

http://www.islam-online.net/askaboutislam/display.asp?hquestionID=7587


The film "Submission" by Theo Van Gogh is very thought provoking.
It's available online at www.genoeg.nu
Also at the link provided below, but the genoeg.nu link is better.
Never believe what a muslim says about Islam unless it is a former muslim who will probably tell the truth.


Jeff, USA

''
Ex-Christian:

"You know Sandy, I earlier asked a question in which no ISLAMOPHOBE dared to answer:

' If Muslims really wanted to convert out of Islam but afraid to do so because of the ' alleged' death penalty, how come they are not converting out of Islam once they in Europe or the US ???? '"


I think that's false reasoning.''


So you too dont have an answer !! hmmmm very interesting.


''The real question is why Muslims immigrate to non-Muslim countries in such large numbers. Let's pretend for a minute that Islam truly is "the way". Why then are Islamic countries not the lights of the world?''


very good question, I can point out that hundreds of thousands of westerners indeed live and work in many muslim RICH countries such as Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar, UAE, Malaysia..etc

The answer is MONEY( it has nothing to do with Islam ) otherwise how do you explain that Muslims indeed keep and hold dear their religion even when they are in the west ?? ( you see, we are back to my question again :) )

Shall we blame CHRISTIANITY for the mass migration of the Irish people in the beginning of the 18th century ????

it is intresting to note that there are 57 muslim countries which are mostly run by secular western supported corrupt regimes.

Beside, not only Muslims migrate, in fact, the number of non muslim immigrants to the USA for example is far more than the muslim immigrants ( the CHRISTIAN Mexcians are shining example) shall we blame christianity for their migration from Mexico to the USA ??


Jeff, USA

''Ex-C:

Don't forget to quote your source!

http://www.islam-online.net/askaboutislam/display.asp?hquestionID=7587''

Thank you Jeff, I had very long post and I forgot to post the source for the explanation of the verse 9:29.

The rest of the post is mine.



Lars

''Never believe what a muslim says about Islam unless it is a former muslim who will probably tell the truth.''

Very moronic statement, Islam is about MUSLIMS, Muslims are the ONLY ones who can explain Islam, because it is THEIRS , after all, it is something belong to THEM, but oh well :)))



"Islam is very clear, when someone wage war on muslims, when someone attack and try to kill muslims, then muslims dont turn the other cheek, Muslims should fight and crush the aggressors, I think it is common sense, you see, Islam is realistic religion."

That`s apparently the filosofy of the US too. Guess where I will place my bet!!


Ex-C,
"Very moronic statement, Islam is about MUSLIMS, Muslims are the ONLY ones who can explain Islam, because it is THEIRS , after all, it is something belong to THEM, but oh well :)))"

No one belives it when Muslims explains Islam anymore. Religion of peace, my ass (pardon my french).


I think that's false reasoning. The real question is why Muslims immigrate to non-Muslim countries in such large numbers. Let's pretend for a minute that Islam truly is "the way". Why then are Islamic countries not the lights of the world?

You are correct that it's false reasoning, but there are other falsehoods as well. There are in fact many people who leave islam, but the cultish death penalty makes a quiet withdrawal a better option. His false premise is that muslims in the US are safe, they aren't. The information about who is muslim isn't objective, since who would answer "no" in a muslim country?Also, I have read that 40% of young muslims fade away from Islam.

Re: Islam bashing; the way I see it: Another response to Ms. Lopa Tasneem By Lopa Hassan

Yes, people are leaving Islam, silently. This is a tragic secret, murmuring into the air of Islamic society these days, trying to tell us something; we can't hear the whisper because it is most often masked by the crude loud scream ‘Islam is the fastest growing religion on earth’.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Marianne, You are not the only one who has been turned away from Islam after learning about it. If you read the testimonial of all those who have left Islam you will see that they left it after their knowledge of Islam improved.

Yes I am aware that Muslims use the story of the conversion of the Westerners as the proof of the truth of their religion. However, most of those who become Muslims leave it after they learn the inhumane teachings of Islam. Read the Steep and Deadly Climb and The Sleepless Night. The problem is that those who leave Islam often are reluctant to advertise their apostasy. Some of them may be concerned for their safety and some still have Muslim friends that they do not wish to offend. Therefore a silent withdrawal seems more appropriate.

And in Iran, Islam has been quite discredited:

The most dramatic crack in the mullah's regime came in Isfahan, where the Ayatollah Taheri, the imam of the city and the official representative of Supreme Leader Khamenei, resigned his post and released a five-page letter explaining his motives.

"I am embarrassed and ashamed," he wrote. "You cannot blame (the United States and the Shah) for the failures and corruption of our country. This has all resulted in our people turning away from Islam, rising unemployment, inflation, high cost of living, a 'satanic gap' between the rich and the poor, an ailing economy, government corruption and addiction." He describes the regime as a vast mafia responsible for "a failing foreign policy, corruption, bribery, brain drain, and the harassment and jailing of journalists and writers." Worst of all, it funds and supports vigilante forces who "continuously sharpen their dinosaur fangs of violence, with the hope of marrying their ugly, oppressive, fear-evoking bride of violence to religion."

http://www.nationalreview.com/ledeen/ledeen071102.asp


nilsr

I already made it clear you cant be taken seriously, so dont try :)


Via Rantburg:

From the excellent Dutch blog Zacht Ei. His link goes to news source in Dutch, registration required.
The mole in the Dutch intelligence agency AIVD turns out to have been a Moroccan translator. His name is Outmar Ben A. (family names are customarily abbreviated in Dutch journalism) and he is 34 years old. After the Van Gogh murder, it became apparent that secret AIVD documents got into the hands of radical Islamists. This afternoon, secretary Johan Remkes of Domestic Affairs will have to answer to the Second Chamber, the Dutch Lower House of Parliament, for the failures of the AIVD.

----

We have the same problem, can't be trusted. Not good.


And you're doing a stellar job of explaining it, EC. Keep up the brilliant work.

--

It's not called the "Religion of Pieces" for nothing.


Ex-C,
guess we can agree upon disagreeing on that one too :)

Please read Michael Ledeen on Mohammed B., and don`t go there.

http://www.nationalreview.com/ledeen/ledeen200411101620.asp


Via EURSOC:

Index On Censorship, a publication dedicated to protecting the right to free speech, blames Dutch film-maker Theo van Gogh for inciting his own murder.

Van Gogh, who was murdered by an Islamofascist in Amsterdam last week, was a "free speech fundamentalist on a martyrdom operation" whose death was the inevitable result of his "abuse of his right to free speech."

This is unbelievable stuff. One of the world's leading anti-censorship publications fails to condemn Europe's most prominent political murder for two years - despite the fact that the murder was carried out as "punishment" for having criticised a repressive, censorious regime?

Also in this months's Index on Censorship are reports that a Mexican editor was murdered by a drugs cartel for exposing their activities. Was the Mexican asking for it too? In Sri Lanka, an editor who criticised the government had a grenade tossed through the window of his home: Had he "abused his right to free speech?"

Or is free speech only acceptable as long as it doesn't offend Islam?

Index link found at Harry's Place

---

What's up is down, what's down is up.


The French Catholic Church is expecting around 9,500 people to be baptized as Catholics in the country this year, with almost 1,000 of those to be converts from Islam.

Three-quarters of the new believers had no previous faith, but 9 percent are former Muslims, 2 percent are former Jews and 2 percent are former members of other Christian denominations, the Church report said.

How about if every year, there is a worldwide religion/philosophy day, where everyone would go to their place of worship (athiests in a school gymnasium), and all the other religions and philosophies get 15 minutes each to make their case. The ground rules would be that any group that wishes to be recognized as a valid religion (for taxes or whatever), would have to agree to 1) disavow any punishment for leaving the religion (to prove you're not a cult), and 2) agree to open up your places of worship to the other groups once a year.

I would guess that every religion and philosphy would agree, except for Muslims.


Ex-C:

"very good question, I can point out that hundreds of thousands of westerners indeed live and work in many muslim RICH countries such as Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar, UAE, Malaysia..etc

The answer is MONEY( it has nothing to do with Islam ) otherwise how do you explain that Muslims indeed keep and hold dear their religion even when they are in the west ?? ( you see, we are back to my question again :) )"

Sure. Westerners go there because oil company jobs are there.

However, Muslims come to the West to actually live in the West. By the number of unemployed, we can tell its not merely for jobs. Since the West is so tolerant and free, there is no reason for them to not hang on to their faith. They just don't want to live under Islamic governments.

Ironically, for the hardliners, the freedom they enjoy in the West allows for the "decadence" they despise.

"Shall we blame CHRISTIANITY for the mass migration of the Irish people in the beginning of the 18th century ????"

Sure, let's. Religion has a nasty track record of worsening, not bettering people's lives. Christianity is certainly not exempt from that. I would argue, though, that Christians have modernized considerably better than Muslims have.

"it is intresting to note that there are 57 muslim countries which are mostly run by secular western supported corrupt regimes."

That's true. Of course, if the West tried to either reform or remove those corrupt regimes... erm... well, we know what would happen. See Iran and Iraq.

"Beside, not only Muslims migrate, in fact, the number of non muslim immigrants to the USA for example is far more than the muslim immigrants ( the CHRISTIAN Mexcians are shining example) shall we blame christianity for their migration from Mexico to the USA ??"

Hahaha, you don't have to tell me about our Mexican immigration problem. With Mexico, as with many Islamic countries, it is because of corrupt government and a poor standard of living for the people that they migrate.

I think there are a lot of parallels there, actually. Particularly in that when they do migrate, they fail to assimilate into the population. When Mexicans come to America, for example, they often don't even bother to learn the language. They don't come here to become Americans, but simply for money and benefits. They do, however, bring with them a lot of resentment for the very country that is taking them in. There are many Mexican "rights groups" here which declare that they hate and want to overtake America, when it is we who have given them a better place to live. If they succeed, why do they expect they'll have better results than what they've already had in their home of Mexico?

The same happens quite often with immigrants from Islamic countries. They come for better living conditions, but they remain separated from others in the country and often outright despise them. And the liberalism of these countries allows for the existance of Muslim groups like Milli Gorus or CAIR, the latter of which has openly admitted that it would like to see America as an Islamic country one day. The irony being that Islamic countries don't exactly have a good track record with human rights, standard of living, and so forth, and that that's why they've migrated to begin with. :-)

Although I am basically opposed to all religion, I don't especially see anything wrong with Islam as a faith per se. It does, as you have been willing to admit yourself, need to watch for the extremists in its midst, and it has to have reform from within. But simply as a religion, it is no different from Christianity or Judaism. Islam as a political theory, however, always results in totalitarianism. It's this Islamism that is the problem, and the extremists have been very successful at dictating the tone and pace.


Jeff, USA

Ex-C:

''Sure. Westerners go there because oil company jobs are there.
However, Muslims come to the West to actually live in the West. By the number of unemployed, we can tell its not merely for jobs. Since the West is so tolerant and free, there is no reason for them to not hang on to their faith. They just don't want to live under Islamic governments. ''

This is pure nonesense, how they dont want to live under islamic government but yet hold ISLAM very dear to their hearts ! cant you see how you contradict yourself here ?

Beside, there are 57 muslim states, can you please name me which one of these has ISLAMIC governments and which has corrupt western supported secular governments ?


"it is intresting to note that there are 57 muslim countries which are mostly run by secular western supported corrupt regimes."
That's true. Of course, if the West tried to either reform or remove those corrupt regimes... erm... well, we know what would happen. See Iran and Iraq.''

you must be joking, the west tries to reform for the sake of reform ? GIVE ME A BREAK.


''Hahaha, you don't have to tell me about our Mexican immigration problem. With Mexico, as with many Islamic countries, it is because of corrupt government and a poor standard of living for the people that they migrate. ''


So it is not because of religion then ???


''I think there are a lot of parallels there, actually. Particularly in that when they do migrate, they fail to assimilate into the population. When Mexicans come to America, for example, they often don't even bother to learn the language. They don't come here to become Americans, but simply for money and benefits. They do, however, bring with them a lot of resentment for the very country that is taking them in. There are many Mexican "rights groups" here which declare that they hate and want to overtake America, when it is we who have given them a better place to live. If they succeed, why do they expect they'll have better results than what they've already had in their home of Mexico?''


but after all, many big American states were THEIRS ( California, New Mexico, Florida, Arizona, Texas) !


''The same happens quite often with immigrants from Islamic countries. They come for better living conditions, but they remain separated from others in the country and often outright despise them. And the liberalism of these countries allows for the existance of Muslim groups like Milli Gorus or CAIR, the latter of which has openly admitted that it would like to see America as an Islamic country one day. The irony being that Islamic countries don't exactly have a good track record with human rights, standard of living, and so forth, and that that's why they've migrated to begin with. :-)''


So again, their migration has nothing to do with religion.


''Although I am basically opposed to all religion, I don't especially see anything wrong with Islam as a faith per se. It does, as you have been willing to admit yourself, need to watch for the extremists in its midst, and it has to have reform from within. But simply as a religion, it is no different from Christianity or Judaism. Islam as a political theory, however, always results in totalitarianism. It's this Islamism that is the problem, and the extremists have been very successful at dictating the tone and pace.''


I Agree with you on that one, but sadly, some morons and Islamophobes try to group all muslims together and frame Islam as bad religion, what should we do about these morons who in most cases happen to be Christian Fascists ?


nilsr,

Ex-C,
''guess we can agree upon disagreeing on that one too :)

Please read Michael Ledeen on Mohammed B., and don`t go there.''


You quoted the nation review !! LOOOOOOOOL this publication is well known christian fascist publication whose its editor once suggested NUKING MECCA !

http://www.religioustolerance.org/news_02mar.htm

Do you know now why I dont take you seriously even when you try ' very ' hard ? :))


"You quoted the nation review !! LOOOOOOOOL this publication is well known christian fascist publication whose its editor once suggested NUKING MECCA "

heh, no bad idea if you ask me :))))

Why are you shouting so loud all the time? Frustrated? Guess it`s not easy being muslim in Finland. Keep my voice low there if I were you. God I`m glad I`m not you.


Sandy P

''Also in this months's Index on Censorship are reports that a Mexican editor was murdered by a drugs cartel for exposing their activities. Was the Mexican asking for it too? In Sri Lanka, an editor who criticised the government had a grenade tossed through the window of his home: Had he "abused his right to free speech?"''


THANK YOU sooo much, I was searching for such cases which show that NON-MUSLIMS also kill those who disagree with them or ' insult ' them.

Were theose killers muslims also ?

Opps, they were not muslims, so why then we blame Islam for the action of a muslim who did what non muslim also do ??


Ex-C:

"This is pure nonesense, how they dont want to live under islamic government but yet hold ISLAM very dear to their hearts ! cant you see how you contradict yourself here ?"

According to you, anybody who holds Mohammed as the final prophet of the one God is a Muslim. They might want an Islamic government in theory, but this is a ridiculous utopian *theory*. The obvious fact is that somebody who meets this criterion of being a Muslim can easily prefer the reality of Western government to the reality of Islamic government. There is no contradiction.

"Beside, there are 57 muslim states, can you please name me which one of these has ISLAMIC governments and which has corrupt western supported secular governments ?"

Do you not know yourself? I'm honestly not that interested in it. If you have a point to make, then say it. I know enough about Islamic government simply from looking at Iran, where people are left and right throwing their religion aside.

"you must be joking, the west tries to reform for the sake of reform ? GIVE ME A BREAK."

I didn't claim they did.

We are capitalists, so we're going to trade and deal with other countries. Naturally, some of these countries will have corrupt and oppressive governments. If we deal with them, we will be shouted at for dealing with tyrants. If we sanction them, we're murdering their children by not allowing them medicine and whatnot. If we try to make them take a lighter hand with their rebel elements, we will end up with Iran. If we forcefully get rid of their corrupt leader, we will end up with Iraq (which I think will become another Iran, anyway). The point being, there is nothing that we can do that will keep our hands clean.

Personally, I feel the best hope is to let countries like Iran have their way for a while until the young people say "enough" and overthrow the government themselves. When this happens, they won't clamor for another Islamic government but for a more Western, secular one, I guarantee you.

"So it is not because of religion then ???"

No, of course not. Religion isn't the only motivator for migration.

"but after all, many big American states were THEIRS ( California, New Mexico, Florida, Arizona, Texas) !"

Not Florida.

And... what is the point? America bought or won militarily all these territories long before any of us were born. Do we need to renegotiate all boundaries and refight all wars that ever happened?

"So again, their migration has nothing to do with religion."

I don't think it's as simple as a yes or no. People migrate for all different reasons. In my opinion, Islam has yet to be modernized and so still has a medieval attitude which can be seen throughout the Middle East. I'm open minded, though. Tell me - in your opinion, how much has Islam affected the current state of Islamic countries? And why aren't these countries appealing to Westerners in the same way that Western countries are to Muslims? Is this because of Islam or in spite of it?

"I Agree with you on that one, but sadly, some morons and Islamophobes try to group all muslims together and frame Islam as bad religion, what should we do about these morons who in most cases happen to be Christian Fascists ?"

Though I'm sceptical of its chances of happening, I believe that reform from within is the answer. Not enough non-Zionist Christians or moderate Muslims are making their voices heard. Each side is primarily interested in reforming the other side, and that, of course, only fuels suspicion and conflict. Some Christians are sympathetic to the Palestinians; some Muslims are pro-Israeli. But there certainly isn't enough variation or differing opinions within each group, so I can only conclude that politics and religious belief are hopelessly intertwined and people are refusing to think critically.


I must say that the q'uran is a difficult read, mostly because the suras are not in chronological order and it full of mindless repetition. One overriding theme does emerge, and that seems to be punishment to unbelievers in this life and the next. How can any intelligent person possibly attribute the word "noble" to this collection of garbage. I can now understand how these islamic drones are driven to commit violent acts in the name of their religion. If this crap is what they preach in mosques then it is no wonder that this morroccan immigrant stabbed and then mutilated the corpse of the film maker Van Gogh. If it was possible I would utterly destroy every mosque and exile the mindless followers of that asshole mohammad who foisted this devilish, insidious deception upon the civilized world to Antarctica and rename it Islamarctica and they could build minarets of ice and preach whatever they want amongst themselves.


THANK YOU sooo much, I was searching for such cases which show that NON-MUSLIMS also kill those who disagree with them or ' insult ' them.

Were theose killers muslims also ?

Opps, they were not muslims, so why then we blame Islam for the action of a muslim who did what non muslim also do ??

How old are you? I'm just wondering, since I've been teaching my 5 year old not to use the excuse: "other people do it"

I'm embarassed for you.


Ex-C:

"Were theose killers muslims also ?

Opps, they were not muslims, so why then we blame Islam for the action of a muslim who did what non muslim also do ??"

Um... perhaps because Islamic terrorism is so widespread?

Certainly there are nonviolent Muslims. Many of them. But religion is what its followers make of it. If enough adherents are extremists, then it's only natural that people will question the religion itself. Too many moderates are more interested in defending Islam to us than they are rooting out these troublemakers who are going into their mosques and recruiting in their community. It's no mystery how moderate Muslims can feel alienated by verbal attacks on Islam, but they have to be mature enough to realize why Islam has its current reputation and decide which is more troubling to them - the problems in Islam, or non-Muslims pointing out the problems in Islam.


Bjorn,

Why don't you update the story with the posistive things coming out of this, like the Dutch Muslim marches against extremism?


Via Bros. Judd, another study:

DOES THE SMIRKING CHIMP HAVE TO BE RIGHT ALL THE TIME?:

Freedom squelches terrorist violence: KSG associate professor researches freedom-terrorism link (Alvin Powell, November 2004, Harvard Gazette)


A John F. Kennedy School of Government researcher has cast doubt on the widely held belief that terrorism stems from poverty, finding instead that terrorist violence is related to a nation's level of political freedom.

Associate Professor of Public Policy Alberto Abadie examined data on terrorism and variables such as wealth, political freedom, geography, and ethnic fractionalization for nations that have been targets of terrorist attacks.

Abadie, whose work was published in the Kennedy School's Faculty Research Working Paper Series, included both acts of international and domestic terrorism in his analysis....

----

There's also an informative link posted about the working poor in America. Might get some of you to think a little differently about what you've been shown. Would make for some interesting conversations among your friends.


--"Beside, there are 57 muslim states, can you please name me which one of these has ISLAMIC governments and which has corrupt western supported secular governments ?"---

Why do the need corrupt western governments?

Seems they're doing pretty well on their own.

Iran comes to mind. Earthquake highlights it.

And then there's Yasser and his bank accounts.


This is extremely sad - however awful the killing of Van Gogh was there is no excuse for attacking islamic mosques or schools.

To vandalize building where honest, modest, people of Islam are praying to god and have their sacred quiet hours is to succumb to irrational hate of anything Moslem.
Even if those mosques are being used by radical moslems that provides no excuse because this mosque is hardly only used by these and targeting a whole religion is essentially the effect.

This cannot be termed in anyway as vigilance since the target is not a perpetrator of any kind.

The dutch police is taking action, though it may appear to late, theirs should the action be. It´s an issue that do not belong in the hands of individuals outside a justice system which, though it may sometimes come to term when it comes to terrorism since it´s in effect mostly based on acts commited, is the one legal arm for action in any other case than direct selfdefense.

We don´t need hate mongering or actions of people answering hate with hate. We don´t need fear and scaremonging but to keep our heads high and stable.

Those responsible and those planing attacks on people in the political and cultural life are the ones not to be attacked be solitary avengers by by law, police, justice.
In my opinion they should be jailed for a long time to get a oneway ticket in their hand once they get out - no return possible. Not be subject of hate or retribution - not even my favorite nausea Omar Bakri.


T. Hansen:

I just wanted to say that I completely agree with that last post of yours.

Øyvind


The entire point of the post was the irony of America's relative tolerance in comparison to the pent-up violence exhibited by a few in Holland in reaction to Islamofascist violence.

Point taken... and welcomed.

A few reacting to a few? Maybe...

That just leaves the other 37 flash points world wide where Islamofascists are attempting to impose their ideology through violent means.

Certainly cut&pastes of ideologues and dismissive comments towards the arguments to the contrary mean it isn't happening right?

Aceh, Darfur... where Islamic's slaughter those insufficiently devout muslims that are racially different?

Philippines, Thailand, Malaysia, Nigeria, Chechnya...

It bores me to go on... to deny it only indicates you are not to be taken seriously.

If Muslims would condemn the methods of targeting civilians then they would be part of the solution... their failure to do so makes them share in the reaction to such violent methodology.

Whether the reaction is justified or not...

Even if they only 'share in the reaction' to the extent that they express outrage about that which is quite predictable however tragic.

In America a 'few' commit acts of violence to battle against abortion... extremist acts of terrorism to be sure made in the 'name of g*d'... but they are condemned by all.

So it is demonstrated they are a genuine 'few'.

It is quite absurd to read taunts of others as 'afraid' even as the numbers of Muslims in the world are exaggerated which implies both a threat and imposes a logical fallacy.

In so doing is demonstrated celebration of the martyred few... justification... rationalization.

What is missing?

Oh yeah... condemnation.


Don't forget China, DANEgerous.

Read Rantburg. It'll open your eyes to a lot of things.

Rough place. Former spooks and army-types.


--Why don't you update the story with the posistive things coming out of this, like the Dutch Muslim marches against extremism? ---

Until they start acting on/turning over the extremists, no biggie.

Did they have puppets??? Puppets are the key, after all.


Dangerous:
"What is missing?
Oh yeah... condemnation."

Answer:
"Why don't you update the story with the posistive things coming out of this, like the Dutch Muslim marches against extremism?"


Gill Doyle:
"Allan, what would you have the EU do in order to stop what you call "redneck" America? I am seriously interested. What concrete actions would you hope for from the EU?"
Start by retreating from NATO, and building a separate defence force would be a good idea. Even our own PM, Bondevik, has started looking into joining EU, and he is in the same position as me: Christian, Originally no to EU, now.. Yes.
I'm not saying 'join the EU to spit in the Americans face'. Its rather natural, when you start to feel threatened, you join forces in order to become stronger yourself. Its as easy as that. Of course, there are other good things in EU as well, like cheaper cars, better opportunity to work within EU countries, common currency, etc..
All this would not be necessary if the rednecks had gained so much influence in American policy. You can feel their hatred for anything not American quite easily by reading posts from some of the American posters here.
Of course, there are many sensible oppinions from American posters like Jeff, however, people like him are not running the American government these days.


Allan writes: "Start by retreating from NATO, and building a separate defence force would be a good idea."

I have nothing against the EU. I agree with you, I think, when you suggest that NATO ought to be disbanded. The European public is so suspicious now of American motives. It's hard to imagine them right now cooperating with America on any new project that requires military force. They're not happy about having agreed to play a part in Afghanistan, I sense.

But I wonder if Norwegians, for example (if Norway joins the EU), would be happy about having France and Germany lead. You might see Norwegians fighting on the Ivory Coast, for instance, or in other former French colonies.

Allan writes: "I'm not saying 'join the EU to spit in the Americans face'."

Well, I'm glad to hear that.

Allan writes: "Its rather natural, when you start to feel threatened, you join forces in order to become stronger yourself."

In what way do you feel threatened? You don't feel that American might attack Norway, do you? Perhaps you fear that America might pressure Norway into sending troops to places like Iraq, where you prefer that they not go. Is that what you mean?

Allan writes: "Its as easy as that. Of course, there are other good things in EU as well, like cheaper cars, better opportunity to work within EU countries, common currency, etc.."

Right. But you can still trade with the U.S.

Allan writes: "You can feel their hatred for anything not American quite easily by reading posts from some of the American posters here."

I certainly have got pissed off at the Euros. That's very true. But what pisses me off is their anti-Americanism. I don't think I have anything else to complain about. It's hard to like people who run you down all the time. If Europe would get reasonable in its criticism of the U.S., then we wouldn't feel as we do. It's one thing to criticize; it's another thing entirely to say that we (Americans) are bent on world conquest, are liers and scoundrels. We get a lot of that these days from folks on your side of the Atlantic. And that kind of invective has been floating our way for as long as I can remember -- for forty years, at least. It didn't start with this war in Iraq. Just think about that before you get mad. When did you first hear people there dump on the U.S.? It's a very old sport, and you can understand that it wears on our nerves.

Allan writes: "Of course, there are many sensible oppinions from American posters like Jeff, however, people like him are not running the American government these days."

I'll have to look more closely at what Jeff writes. Give us another chance, though, Allan. It happens in these forums, you know, that people try to score points by trashing those who disagree with them. I have lost my temper too and said things I regret saying. We have to remember that what we're trying to do here is not to score points, but rather to understand each other. I don't think that we can change each other's minds. We've accomplished something if we can just understand each other and stay civil.


Oh, boy, 2005 is shaping up to be a very interesting year:


Turkey’s military has begun preparing for what officials warned could result in a major invasion of neighboring Iraq. Officials said the Turkish General Staff has drafted plans for an invasion by at least 20,000 troops into northern Iraq in early 2005. "After the Iraqi elections in January, the Turkish military will be ready to move," a Turkish government source said...


Gill:
"I have nothing against the EU. I agree with you, I think, when you suggest that NATO ought to be disbanded. The European public is so suspicious now of American motives. It's hard to imagine them right now cooperating with America on any new project that requires military force. They're not happy about having agreed to play a part in Afghanistan, I sense.
But I wonder if Norwegians, for example (if Norway joins the EU), would be happy about having France and Germany lead. You might see Norwegians fighting on the Ivory Coast, for instance, or in other former French colonies"

I definately vote for helping US in whatever need may be, yes even militarilly, and there are MANY Europeans that thinks this way, as long as it is justified. If US is attacked in a large scale war, like from China, you would see Norwegians and French and Germans all rally to help you. You also saw it in Afghanistan.

Nope, we would not be happy about fighting a french war at all either. However, EU is a good forum for all the nations to contribute in, and EU is not run that much by France and Germany as it used to. Of course, I am not opposed to sending forces to stop humanitarian catastrophes as in Darfur, but you might ask yourself, why are no American soldiers there? And don't say its because you are preoccupied, US is THE strongest force on earth damnit.. And yes, I can see the difference between Darfur and Iraq, in my mind, its more important to stop crisises from happening like there than to make Iraq democratic (like that really was the reason)

In the end I feel excactly the same as you Gill, only opposite, I get sick of seeing Americans ranting on about Europe day after day. And just to make things worse, these people are racists, trying to spread hateful biggoted ideas of Islam being a threat by itself whenever they can. I totally agree with many here that Islamic terrorists being a problem, heck even Ex-C thinks that. I do however get upset by the relentless attacks upon Europe and him by people like this (If you talk reasonably with Ex-C, his responses are reasonable as well). I just pray and hope that ideas like this is not being supported or spread by the American government.

"In what way do you feel threatened? You don't feel that American might attack Norway, do you? Perhaps you fear that America might pressure Norway into sending troops to places like Iraq, where you prefer that they not go. Is that what you mean?"
From my opinion, it seems like many Americans hate everything thats not American. Thats what I mean. I also feel that American politics is destabilising the world, making it a less safe place for all of us. This means we have to have another strong player that might help to set things right.

"I certainly have got pissed off at the Euros. That's very true. But what pisses me off is their anti-Americanism. I don't think I have anything else to complain about."
I get pissed at Americans for anti-Europeanism. The thing is: If someone complain about your policies, which also have effect on their lives, dont confuse it with anti-Americanism.. You hear people of Europe saying all the time: "We dont hate America, we just dont agree with your policies" and then you hear Americans saying, "Yeah yeah, like I'm supposed to believe that you commie-socialist-welfare weakling, we saved you in the second world war, you know" Take your own advice (about the muslims) for once, believe us when we say it: We DONT hate US, we just disagree with your policies.

"Right. But you can still trade with the U.S."
Yes, and the Europe-US trade-block is the largest and has the most trade in the world.

One thing that did cheer me up a bit today was the site http://f*ckthesouth.com/ ... Good stuff :)


"Oh, boy, 2005 is shaping up to be a very interesting year:
Turkey’s military has begun preparing for what officials warned could result in a major invasion of neighboring Iraq. Officials said the Turkish General Staff has drafted plans for an invasion by at least 20,000 troops into northern Iraq in early 2005. "After the Iraqi elections in January, the Turkish military will be ready to move," a Turkish government source said..."

-- Where did you get this Sandy?


Ex-C:

I am curious of you own personal views about some issues.


do you think gays should be thrown from tall buildings

do you have problems with people who are gay

do you think there are reasons when its okay to physically abuse women

do you think women should have equal rights

do you believe in the death penalty

do you think its okay to kill somebody if they insult you

do you think its okay to kill somebody if they insult the christian faith

do you think its okay to kill somebody if they insult the moslim faith

should salman rushdie be killed for writing that book

do you think single parents can bring up there children well

is there anything you like about western culture (be it art, music, literature, television or anything else)

how many sexual partners should a women have in a lifetime

do you think pornography plays a role in the cause of crime. If so I better go to a different site after posting this else I don't know what I may do.

do you think its possible to teach "family values" and the importance of the "traditional nuclear" family unit without mentioning Islam.

are those Moroccans selling drugs in that doggy area in Madird Moslims. How about those Moroccans who tried to steal my friends camera the other day. They can't be moslims.They must have dropped their faith

thanks
pablo


Liberalism: is a political current embracing several historical and present-day ideologies that claim defense of individual liberty as the purpose of government. It typically favors the right to dissent from orthodox tenets or established authorities in political or religious matter. A liberal is also a right-wing or classical liberal proponent of free markets and liberal social policy (freedom of association/speech). [As in Australia]
To state what should be obvious, the meaning of ideologies change according to time and place. The original meaning of liberal(individual freedom, limited government, etc.) is now largely obsolete. The "liberals" of today are now considered a variety of conservative. I think the remnant attitude from the old liberalism that still obtains in both the US and Europe is one of tolerance towards the Other. I don't believe there is anything in Marxist doctrine from which this necessarily flows. I was thinking of the "liberal" use of ethnic and racial epithets by Marx himself. That is why I construed the dominant ideology of Europe as social democracy with a liberal flavor. IN the US, of course, what is called liberalism is a form of social democracy- an increasingly authoritarian form of socialism in the age of PC, racial preferences, "anti-hate" laws and minute regulation of the workplace. When I made a reference to the equation of "fascism" (or even national socialism ) with conservatism or nationalism I was thinking of all those leftists (who think we have all met) who equated anything "right-wing" with those ideologies. For example, here in the US even the feeblest attempts to control illegal immigration are met with cries of "racism". And when the rac ist label is used the "nazi" label is not far behind.
Maybe I'm wrong about what passes for parliamentary liberalism outside the US. Tell me, do the German Free Democrats or similar parties have anything in common with classical liberalism ? I think they are somewhat more pro-free market than the other parties, but hasn't the social basis of truly liberal parties dissolved.


"ut I wonder if Norwegians, for example (if Norway joins the EU), would be happy about having France and Germany lead. You might see Norwegians fighting on the Ivory Coast, for instance, or in other former French colonies"
Oh, I forgot, France is a member of NATO, and as the alliance says, an attack on one member is like an attack on all. Should not then NATO help in stabilising Ivory Coast?


Alan wrote:

" Of course, I am not opposed to sending forces to stop humanitarian catastrophes as in Darfur, but you might ask yourself, why are no American soldiers there? And don't say its because you are preoccupied, US is THE strongest force on earth damnit.. "

Do you realy mean US should go in unilateraly, like they (almost) did in Iraq? This was one of the major stands opposing the invation. By the way, US state department is the only ones labeling the happenings of Darfur a genocide, displaying a will of action.

What the ongoing situation proves is the lack of will and effectivity of the UN. They stand back watching as villages are burned, males killed and women raped. "Now you will have light skinned children" is what they are being told.

Yesterday BBC proved on film that government policeforces partisipated in forcing refugeecamps to move. In violation to int.treaties. Collin Powell has stated that this is "unacceptable". Where is the UN? And where is the EU? Bleeding hippocrites!

Your attitude is so typical to the opposition to the US: If they act, it`s wrong. If they don`t act, it`s wrong too. The only thing clear is that you don`t like them.


pablo, madrid


''Ex-C:

I am curious of you own personal views about some issues.''

Sure.


''do you think gays should be thrown from tall buildings''

No.


''do you have problems with people who are gay''

Not at all.


''do you think there are reasons when its okay to physically abuse women''

There can be NO reason whatsoever which justifies abusing women.


''do you think women should have equal rights''

Under Islam, they already have equal rights.


''do you believe in the death penalty''

Yes.


''do you think its okay to kill somebody if they insult you''

No.

''do you think its okay to kill somebody if they insult the christian faith''

I am not christian anymore, I will leave that to some christians here to answer.


''do you think its okay to kill somebody if they insult the moslim faith''

I am not sure about this one, traditionally, anyone who insults Islam will be put to death ( it happened with the great hero of Islam Salahudin who killed a European christian cursader for insulting prophet muhammad )

I wont do that personaly though, I will not kill someone for insulting Islam.


''should salman rushdie be killed for writing that book''

NOOOOO, in fact, it was this stupid fatwa which made him a celebrity.


''do you think single parents can bring up there children well '''

No, they cant.

''is there anything you like about western culture (be it art, music, literature, television or anything else)''

Of course, I am westerner after all, I like the respect of law and order, I am lucky enough to travel to many parts of the world specially the arab world and I can see many positive things about our western culture but most of these positive aspects are sadly material stuff, we are bankrupt spiritually and morally.


''how many sexual partners should a women have in a lifetime''

only ONE, her husband.


''do you think pornography plays a role in the cause of crime. If so I better go to a different site after posting this else I don't know what I may do.''

of course pablo, pornography is sick , it corrupts your mind and your soul.


''do you think its possible to teach "family values" and the importance of the "traditional nuclear" family unit without mentioning Islam.''

Of course you can do that, we muslims dont claim monopoly over morality or over paradise for that matter.


''are those Moroccans selling drugs in that doggy area in Madird Moslims. How about those Moroccans who tried to steal my friends camera the other day. They can't be moslims.They must have dropped their faith ''

Indeed, they are not muslims who steal from others.

Those Moroccan criminals should be deported from Spain.

''thanks''

You are very welcome, here are some sites in Spanish about Islam:

http://www.verdeislam.com

http://www.webislam.com

By the way, I have special great passion for Spain ( Al Andalus as we muslims call it ), I have been to Granada ( the great muslim city ), It was magical illuminating great visit.



Allan,

Turkey has openly declared that it will mobilise and insert troops across the border into northern Iraq if a Kurdish party gains power there.

Doing the Iraq war (II) they massed soldiers on their border in order to intimidate the Kurds.

Cheers,
Dave.


Rantburg, Allan.

I've mentioned it more than once here. It's a rough place, full of military-types. But a good roundup of world hotspot stuff.

Not only that, there was a companion article posted, seems to me Turkey's burning its' bridges.

Is NATO going to protect it from US?

Especially since frogistan doesn't want them in the EU in the 1st place???


Allan, frogistan is a member of NATO, but not on the military side, IIRC.

There was a meeting a couple of years ago in which they did not participate cos they don't have a seat at that table.

DeGaulle pulled them out in 66?????


--Norwegians and French and Germans all rally to help you. You also saw it in Afghanistan.--

Oh, please, stop the revisionism.

I've been reading this nonsense for 2 years now.

ONLY if we tell you where, when and with what.

US spends money, people and blood.

Google the articles yourself.


"I also feel that American politics is destabilising the world, making it a less safe place for all of us."

Allan, I am intrigued by your stability fetish. I don't agree that stability, in and of itself, is necessarily worth preserving. Stalin's Russia was stable. Saddam's Iraq was stable. Would you have felt safer there?

If you feel that American politics are destabilising the world, then why on Earth would you want American troops positioned anywhere; even Darfur?


Give it up, Nancy, they have this thing about "stability."

America has never been about stability, and that's one thing "the world" can't understand.


>> America has never been about stability, and that's one thing "the world" can't understand.

Really, the "stable" thing to do would have been to remain an oppressed british colony. It would have been in the interest of "stability" to let the South secede and keep slavery going. It would have been "safer" to let the Japanese warlords have Hawaii, if they wanted it so bad. The stable thing to do would have been to let Hitler keep Europe, and negotiate with the more moderate elements of the Nazi ideology.

Stability in the face of evil is cowardice. It takes courage to fight evil.


Kevin S, Boston


Having lived in France I can tell you the French bitch about the English language taking over and the North Africans(muslims).


So I'll list them... because it's not about actual violence it's about "stereotypes" right?

Canada, USA, Mexico, Argentina, Brazil, Paraguay, Algeria, Chad, Djibouti, Egypt, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Ivory Coast, Kenya, Liberia, Libya, Mali, Mauritania, Morocco, Nigeria, Somalia, South Africa, Sudan, Tanzania, Albania, Austria, Belgium, Bosnia, Bulgaria, Denmark, France, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, Norway, Russia, Spain, Sweden, the UK, Bahrain, Cyprus, Iran, Iraq, Israel, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Palestinian Authority, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey, United Arab Emirates, Yemen, Afghanistan, Bangladesh, China, East Timor, India, Indonesia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Malaysia, Pakistan, the Philippines, Tajikistan, Thailand, Uzbekistan, Australia.

So it's really just a few... in an isolated few places...

And who are the Dutch rounding up?

The Kurds... who plan to fight for liberation against Iran-Turkey-Iraq.

Just like the French rounded up the Iranian resistance...

So when the Dutch government takes material action against those that actually threaten the Dutch...

I'll be wondering why the Dutch government takes so much interest in the enemies of the countries that harbor and support the 'few' that threaten the Dutch.

And no... I've seen no reporting of:

"Why don't you update the story with the posistive things coming out of this, like the Dutch Muslim marches against extremism?"


This is amusing. I was just looking at NRK (Norwegian television/radio website). One of the articles there begins as follows:

"22 amerikanere og 600 opprørere er drept i kampene om Falluja, hevder en amerikansk militær talsmann, men som vanlig kan ikke tallene bekreftes."

Translated: 22 Americans and 600 rebels have been killed in the fighting in Falluja, an American military spokesman claims. But, as usual, the numbers can't be confirmed."

But, a short time ago, NRK had no trouble accepting som other figures. Here's how a different story began, just a week or so ago:

"100.000 flere døde
Amerikanske helseeksperter mener at 100.000 flere mennesker enn normalt har dødd i Irak siden invasjonen i mars i fjor."

Translated: "100000 more died. American health experts believe that 100000 more people than normal have died in Iraq since the invasion in March of last year."


Ex-C

---''do you think women should have equal rights''

Under Islam, they already have equal rights.---

Source: http://www.answering-islam.org.uk/Women/index.html

Some quotes:

"Lesser inheritance

Liability to divorce and inability to divorce

Men can have multiple wives, but a woman can have only one husband

The wife must stay secluded at home

A woman must keep her head covered inside the house

A woman’s court testimony is only counted as half of a man

A woman cannot leave the house except accompanied by a near relative

Only men can take part in Friday and feast day prayers and funerals

A woman cannot be a ruler or judge"


If by "equal rights" you mean treated the same way as men, then no, women are not equal under islam. Even in heaven, women never get their "72 virgins" like men do.

In fact, there are more women in "hell" than men:

---The Prophet said, "I stood at the gate of Paradise and saw that the majority of the people who entered it were the poor, while the wealthy were stopped at the gate (for the accounts). But the companions of the Fire were ordered to be taken to the Fire. Then I stood at the gate of the Fire and saw that the majority of those who entered it were women."
This hadith is found in
SaHeeH Bukhari: 5196, 6547 (FatH Al-Bari's numbering system)
SaHeeH Muslim: 2736 (Abd Al-BaQi's numbering system)
Musnad AHmad: 21275, 21318 (IHya' Al-Turath's numbering system)
---

This article: http://www.answering-islam.org.uk/Responses/Osama/women.htm explains why women have more rights under Christianity, under the Bible (BBBBBBBB!!!! not bible bbbbb!) than they do following islam. :)

-------------------------------------------------

"Thou shall not murder."
Tell that to the terrorists who shout "Allah is great" while chopping off (or sawing off with a blunt knife) the heads of non-muslims.



"What the ongoing situation proves is the lack of will and effectivity of the UN. They stand back watching as villages are burned, males killed and women raped. "Now you will have light skinned children" is what they are being told.
Yesterday BBC proved on film that government policeforces partisipated in forcing refugeecamps to move. In violation to int.treaties. Collin Powell has stated that this is "unacceptable". Where is the UN? And where is the EU? Bleeding hippocrites!"
What the! Who is the hippocritte?! The US goes into Iraq to 'spread democracy' and you guys cheer, 'YEA, we're strong, we're the hero's we fight evilness, we are courageous', and at the same time the US is just standing on the sideline on Darfur, just whining and screaming? If the US really meant what they said about spreading democracy, they would have sent forces to Darfur already. And you know US have the resources to do it. US dont give a damn about UN anyways, so how come they suddenly thrust the responsibility of this onto UN? I'll bet my right arm that now after Iraq is taken, the US military adventures are over for this time. They won't do anything about Iran, and they wont do anything about Darfur. Its as simple as that.
Yeah, Coling Powell claims its 'unacceptable', so where the hell are your brave young boys?
You have more than those positioned in Iraq now by the way.


Gunnar:
"Really, the "stable" thing to do would have been to remain an oppressed british colony. It would have been in the interest of "stability" to let the South secede and keep slavery going. It would have been "safer" to let the Japanese warlords have Hawaii, if they wanted it so bad. The stable thing to do would have been to let Hitler keep Europe, and negotiate with the more moderate elements of the Nazi ideology"
Lol, the stable thing would not for Japanese warlords to attack in the first instance. The stable thing would be for England not to make colonies in the first instance. The stable thing would not to keep slaves in the first instance. Its as easy as that.


Allan writes: "If the US really meant what they said about spreading democracy, they would have sent forces to Darfur already. And you know US have the resources to do it. . . . I'll bet my right arm that now after Iraq is taken, the US military adventures are over for this time."

Actually, I don't think that we do have the resources to do it. We have too few men in Iraq, as is. More importantly, though, neither the American public nor the international community would tolerate our sending troops. The Muslim world would go berserk. I think that's the reality.


Allan -- about America destabilizing the world. It is true, isn't it, that folks who oppose this war in Iraq -- who accuse us of destabilizing the world -- preferred the stability that Hussein provided? That is the stability to which you referred, isn't it? The same people who oppose the war also objected to the American/British no-fly zones. And they objected most vehemently to the U.N. sanctions that supposedly killed 5,000 Iraqi children each month. I know that folks who oppose this war claim that they did not like Hussein and did not approve of his regime. Yet -- there is no way around it -- in opposing this war, they absolutely supported Saddam Hussein. And now, those same people -- if they hope for an American failure in Iraq -- are hoping for instability. At this point, what is it that these anti-war people want? Do they want an immediate withdrawal of American forces? Do they want the Sunni insurgents and their terrorist pals to win this war? Given the criticisms that I hear from those folks, I have to believe that that is just what they want.


Amy G.

''Ex-C

---''do you think women should have equal rights''

Under Islam, they already have equal rights.---

Source: http://www.answering-islam.org.uk/Women/index.html''

Answering Islam ? loooooooool what a joke ? at least you dont have the intelligence to realize that this site is anti muslim hate site, but dont worry, we have a site which refutes all the lies in your quoted hate site:


http://www.answering-christianity.com

How do the Bible and the Noble Quran view women?

Jesus considers women as dirt that defiles men (since Jesus, the GOD, is the one who supposedly inspired the New Testament as Christians claim): Revelation 14:4 "Those are those (men) who did not defile themselves with women..''

http://www.answering-christianity.com/view_of_women.htm


Ex-C:

Sorry, but your source on this (http://www.answering-christianity.com/view_of_women.htm) is just ridiculous. Instead of explaining the restrictions put on women by Islam such as the points brought up by Amy, it simply highlights a few nice things in comparison to the "harsh" and "evil" quotes of the Bible... mostly taken from the Old Testament, which many Christians will argue is mostly null and void thanks to the message of Jesus and the New Testament which did away with legalism and the old covenant.

If Answering Islam is a Muslim hate site, then Answering Christianity is a Christian hate site.


Jeff, USA

''Ex-C:

Sorry, but your source on this (http://www.answering-christianity.com/view_of_women.htm) is just ridiculous.''

Oh really ? I did not see you say the same thing about answering Islam hate site which makes you what ? I guess HYPOCRITE is the correct word !

'' Instead of explaining the restrictions put on women by Islam such as the points brought up by Amy, it simply highlights a few nice things in comparison to the "harsh" and "evil" quotes of the Bible''

Amy did not bring a SINGLE VERSE from the Noble Quran, what she did is just copying and pasting without knowing what the hell she is copying and pasting !!


''... mostly taken from the Old Testament, which many Christians will argue is mostly null and void thanks to the message of Jesus and the New Testament which did away with legalism and the old covenant.''


Oh really ? How pathetic, what about this?


Matthew 5:17–18:

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfil them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.”


It is because of such contradictory absurdities in christianity that I decided to leavr this cult and embrace the only one true religion, The great Islam.


http://www.why-christians-convert-to-islam.com

http://www.jesus-or-allah.com



Ex-C:

"Oh really ? I did not see you say the same thing about answering Islam hate site which makes you what ? I guess HYPOCRITE is the correct word !"

Well, as you had already mentioned that, I didn't see a need to repeat it.

I do think "hypocrite" is the correct word, though. You call a Christian site a hate site and yet cite its Islamic counterpart as a credible source.

"Amy did not bring a SINGLE VERSE from the Noble Quran, what she did is just copying and pasting without knowing what the hell she is copying and pasting !!"

Can you address her points on your own, then? Without copying and pasting from other websites? Are the practices she mentioned Islamic ones, or do they exist apart from Islam?

"Oh really ? How pathetic, what about this?


Matthew 5:17–18:

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfil them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.”

It is because of such contradictory absurdities in christianity that I decided to leavr this cult and embrace the only one true religion, The great Islam."

The laws and practices in these old books are simply not compatible with modern societies. In my opinion, the argument that Jesus did away with legalism is a way of modernizing Christianity. It is a contradiction, but it is this compromise that makes Christianity acceptable for many people in the secular world. Islam has yet to be modernized in such a way. That is exactly why there is so much conflict between the West and Islam.


US army is pretty stretched out in Iraq that´s just a fact - Soldiers that been promised just to be there for ½ a year is being recycled back and have stayed there for more than a year in thousands. national guard members as old as 60 + is being send to Iraq - not to forget how hard all this is being on the US economy.

Sudan would only be a new nest of muhajedin jihad vs USA neeeding 100000 + troops to get anywhere. and to establish democracy there would be even harder than in Iraq - a country that atleast used to have a relatively high level of education and living standard before Iran war.

Alan I think the truth you will hate the US don´t matter what they do just as so many else. USA just can´t do anything right sigh.

I think the US prefers to be hated for not doing anything here in this case rather than for invading. Europe however have plenty of troops to send - but oh we only send peace keeping forces not peace making.


Revelation 14:4 "Those are those (men) who did not defile themselves with women..''

That has nothing with what Jesus said to do this is on the account of John and some other on the account of Paul.

Jesus attacked not women but pharisees and scibes. Jesus was about love and compassion not about hypocracy, ritual. And he contempted anyone pretending to be good and saved but was nothing but rotten inside.

When anyone tried to approach him with their personal ideas about "sinful" women and stone them like Mary of magdalene he effectively rebuked them.


Ex-C;

You've not responded to the points I brought up about women in Islam not being equal to men. All you've done is attacked Christianity, and pulled some quotes out of context from the Bible to "prove" your point. Please explain, that if women "have the same rights" as men do in Islam, then why:

can men marry up to four women while a woman can only marry one man?

why women have to wear clothing that covers their entire bodies and men don't?

why afgan women are being killed by men when trying to express their new freedoms given to them by the new democracy?

why when a woman is raped by a man, it is usually the woman who is punished/killed for "defiling the family honor" instead of the raper?

why Islamic women generally have no say in who they marry?

And why you think they have equal rights when the prophet himself said that women are inferior?

This isn't about comparing Islam to Christianity. It's about whether women are equal or not under islam.


>> You've not responded to the points I brought up about women in Islam not being equal to men.

I can tell you that when my wife was working as a software engineer for an aerospace company, there were mid-east gentlemen (we weren't really aware of muslims at that point), who in a meeting would not address any woman. Female engineers would speak, and they would act like nothing was said. A male would have to repeat it, and then they would answer.


“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfil them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.”

I'm no bible scholar, but some thoughts:

1) He was speaking to the Jews, who are, and always will be "God's chosen people". It's true that even when Jews recognize Jesus as the Messiah, they can't abandon the law.

2) The book of Acts makes it clear that gentiles are not to be bound by the "law"

3) It might not have been a long time, since "everything is accomplished" might refer to "It is accomplished".


Amy:

Your copied and pasted nonesense is not worth to respond to, I refered you to a lik from answering christianity site which addresses all the lies your copied and pasted.

As to you other questions, I think American women should first fight for their rights before they open their mouthes about muslim women:


Sexual Assault Facts in the USA:


One out of every three American women will be raped in her lifetime. (6,13, 17)

According to the Surgeon General, violence is the leading cause of injury to women age 15-44. (8)

One out of four girls and one out of six boys are sexually abused before age 18. (11)

84% of rapes go unreported; 46% of survivors of acquaintance rape and 27% of stranger rape survivors never tell anyone. (9, 14, 15)

77% of rape survivors know their attacker. These include rapes committed by relatives, neighbors, acquaintances and boyfriends. 57% of rapes occur on a date. (10, 15)

90% of children under the age of 12 knew their assailants. (18)

51-60% of college men report they would rape a woman if they were certain that they would get away with it. One out of twelve college men surveyed had committed acts that met the legal definition of rape; 84% of these men said what they did was DEFINITELY not rape. (12, 15, 16)

Alchohol may act for the assailant as a disinhibitor, as an excuse following the assault, or as a strategy to reduce victim resistance. At least 45% of rapists were under the influence of alcohol or drugs at the time of the assault. (20)

One in every seven married women will be sexually assaulted by her husband. (6, 12)

Of women who are killed, 55% are killed by a relative, spouse, or other intimate partner. Of men who are killed, only 20% are killed by a relative, spouse, or other intimate partner. (3)

71% of rapes are planned in advance. (10)

98% of all sexual assault survivors will never see their attacker caught, tried and imprisoned. Of the rape cases brought to prosecution, over one half will be dismissed before trial or acquitted. One half of convicted rapists serve less than one year in prison. (9, 18)

A survivor of sexual assault is nine times more likely to attempt suicide than a person not assaulted. (16)

39% of women in state prisons report being sexually abused prior to being in jail. (21)

67% of women who were raped and/or physically assaulted since age 18 were assaulted by a current or former husband, cohabitating partner or date. (19)

Survivors of sexual assault have higher rates of drug and alcohol consumption and related problems (10):

- Survivors are 5.3 times more likely than non-survivors to use prescription drugs for non-medical purposes
- 3.4 times more likely to use marijuana
- 6.4 times more likely to use cocaine
- Ten times more likely to use hard drugs other than cocaine
- 79% of survivors who drink alcohol became intoxicated for the first time after the assault
- 89% of survivors who use cocaine used it for the first time after the assault.

More than 80% of women who are raped try to physically resist (5).

Studies show that women whose response to an assault is to kick, hit, scream, scratch or run away are half as likely to be raped as those who do not - and are not injured more often. Conversely, begging, pleading and reasoning are related to a greater severity of sexual abuse (1, 13).

50-85% of women in the U.S. can expect to be sexually harrassed during their academic or working life (7).

90% of people who encounter sexual harrassment are unwilling to report for two primary reasons: fear of retaliation and fear of loss of privacy (4, 16).

Sexual harrassment costs the government approximately $100 million a year in actual and productivity costs (4, 16).

http://www.dcrcc.org/assault-facts.htm

So you see Amy, you dont even have the moral high ground when it comes to women rights, at least, we muslims elected women presidents and prime ministers some 20-30 years ago, when, IF EVER, your ' civilized' country will elect its first women president ??????


Ex-C;

*sigh* All you're doing is dodging the issue I brought up - whether women are truly equal to men under islam - and spouting facts that have nothing to do with that issue.

Maybe you are doing so because you know that women are not equal to men under islam, and you don't want to admitt it.


Amy:

You did not even bother to look at the link I gave you which answers all your questions, but oh well !

How many American women were killed today as a result of domestic violence ???


*rolls eyes* Ex-C, can you at least answer this one question without bringing up irrelevant issues?

Why, if men and women are equal under islam, can men marry up to four women while a woman can only marry one man?


hi amy and ex christian,
ex christian, it would be nice if you stop dodging amy's question, and be man enuf to admit that islam is nothing but a misogynist and chauvinistic religion , plain and simple... all other countries have contributed at least one female astronaut, even patriarchal india....i am still waiting for a female astronaut to grace the space center from a muslim country, but don't hold yr breath amy. There is an old arab saying ( yes islam as is practised is really arab-religion, actually a form of old testamental judeochristianity, they are the reincarnation of the religion of the olden pharasees who hold women in contempt , for they begin their prayer by thanking god for not being born a women): a woman is the property of her father when born, when she is of age, she is the property of her husband, when she is old she is the property of her sons. She is Umm Abu, Umm Ahmad, Umm Khalid, she is somebody's mother, somebody's sister, somebody's wife...she is never her own person, for she does not exist, she is just a necessar evil. Sister, have you ever wondered why majority of mullahIslam countries are so behind the rest of the world...think for a minute, they denigrate half the population/women and the hand that rocks the cradle rules the world...there you have it, illiterate women, raises illiterate kids with poor health and mental capacity and therefore the country suffers . For an eye opening essay go to this site ( the wonderful treatment of women by Islamists):

http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/women.html

You go girl,

Kim Sook-Im


Gunnar,
i am seething with anger to know that your wife was sidelined by one of those primitive barbaric cameljocks ( oh oeyvindt don't even think about being too politically correct, the middle easterners call you names that will make a prostitute blush o.k. !). Gunnar, if that happens again, i insist you tell your wife to demand that they speak to her directly, look her in the eye and if they refuse, to ask all her colleagues , ie. male colleagues to collectively remain silent and let that uncivilized baboon of ali baba stew and sweat in the chair till he take a hint. The rest of the world have better wake up, and stop catering to this primitive trolls..do you all want to be arabized and bedouinized , for once be proud of your own culture and stop catering to this low lives, you do not need them, they need you. period.

Kim Sook-Im
( very irrate korean country girl !!!)


Amy G. USA

''*rolls eyes* Ex-C, can you at least answer this one question without bringing up irrelevant issues?''


The issues I raised are very important, you cant criticize or condemn something YOU are guilty of.


''Why, if men and women are equal under islam, can men marry up to four women while a woman can only marry one man?''

Because if woman has many husbands and if she got pregnant, you cant know who is the father, GOT IT ? I thought it will be very easy for you to figure that out !


Kim Sook-Im,US

Your comments about Islam indicates grave ignorance of this great religion, and since your ignorance of this religion is well established, it will be useless really to argue with you !

May be less dogs meals at your lunch will do the trick :)))


"Because if woman has many husbands and if she got pregnant, you cant know who is the father, GOT IT ? I thought it will be very easy for you to figure that out !"

Ever heard of DNA tests ?


T. Hansen ,

dont hold yr breath, ex christian has abandoned all intelligence and rationality when he got infected with the islam-virus. Also resorting to insinuating that all koreans eat dog meat is a cheap shot, i could say the same for you eating horse meat, but you are missing the crux of the arguement. ( i am a vegetarian buddhist by the way and do not slaughter goat and sheeps to appease a vengeful and blood thirsty deity like mullah islamists do ) ..how you treat animals reflect on your level of morality inherent in yr religion, a religion that sanctioneds beheading another sentient being does not pass for a lofty creed . period. kapisch !

kim sook-im
free-thinking country girl :)


>> Gunnar, if that happens again, i insist you tell your wife to demand that they speak to her directly, look her in the eye and if they refuse, to ask all her colleagues , ie. male colleagues to collectively remain silent and let that uncivilized baboon of ali baba stew and sweat in the chair till he take a hint

ROFL. In retrospect, this is what we should have done. However, in that pre-9/11 time (80s), we were completely ignorant of this worldwide Jihad phenomena. I guess we took him as an isolated wacko, not worth an "anti-Jihad" effort.

I hope the rest of South Korea is more like you, "free thinking girl". It would make fighting the NK commies back then all the more worth it. Btw, that whole thing was organized by a Norwegian, Trygve Lie. The only good thing the UN has ever done.


I think the Dutch are trying to take their country back. Muslims have proven to be poor neighbors, and should be sent back to their home countries where they can misbehave to their heart's content.

The war of civilizations is growing plainer, and it is harder not to choose sides.


>> The war of civilizations is growing plainer, and it is harder not to choose sides.

Even though the fence is tattered and barely standing, I'm sure that some folks will still attempt to sit on it. (right, øyvind?)


Gunnar,

Lets hope that in your attempts to polarise opinion into either extremist camps that you do not cast a side the civilisation you claim to be fighting for.

Dave


Sorry, Gunnar, I have never believed in that fence.

I find no reason to choose the side of people bombing mosques over the side of people killing critics and flying airplanes into buildings, or the other way around.


Ex-C:

Getting pregnant has nothing to do with equality between men and women.

P.S. I was reading over some old topics, and I saw in one of your comments that you laughed at the "Christian logic of 1+1+1=1" (refering to the Holy Trinity). Now, if you were REALLY an ex-Christian, wouldn't you understand the concept of the Holy Trinity? All REAL Christians know that the Holy Trinity isn't three separate things, but parts of a whole, of One.


Lets hope that in your attempts to polarise opinion into either extremist camps that you do not cast a side the civilisation you claim to be fighting for.

The fact that you believe that getting off the fence is "extremist" indicates your disconnect from reality. Faced with a choice between Nazis trying to herd innocent jewish children into gas chambers and the US military landing at D-Day, you wouldn't be able to tell which one has the moral high ground.

Øyvind, Bergen Sorry, Gunnar, I have never believed in that fence.

I find no reason to choose the side of people bombing mosques over the side of people killing critics and flying airplanes into buildings, or the other way around.

That's painfully obvious. As such, your highly nuanced opinion means nothing in the larger scheme of things. Long live the memory of Chamberlin!


Yes, Gunnar, I'd prefer Chamberlain any day, if the alternative is someone or something that looks like the guy who sat on the other side of the table.

I'm not terribly optimistic when it comes to peace in our time, though.

So, not wanting to choose the sides of terrorists, regardless of their ideology, makes me "highly nuanced", does it?


Yes, Gunnar, I'd prefer Chamberlain any day, if the alternative is someone or something that looks like the guy who sat on the other side of the table.

I'm completely shocked that you just openly admit this, since Chamberlin is the biggest fool in history. You aren't being asked to choose between Chamberlin and Hitler. The choice is between Chamberlin and Churchill.

I'm not terribly optimistic when it comes to peace in our time, though.

given that appeasement is guaranteed to strengthen evil, and that you openly support appeasement, I guess sitting on the fence is really all about supporting evil, without appearing to do so.

So, not wanting to choose the sides of terrorists, regardless of their ideology, makes me "highly nuanced", does it?

How about non-ambiguously choosing the side of the non-terrorists? How about clearly stating that those that defend themselves against the attacks of evil nazi aggressors are not morally equivalent to the aggressors.


Faced with a choice between Nazis trying to herd innocent jewish children into gas chambers and the US military landing at D-Day, you wouldn't be able to tell which one has the moral high ground.

Hardly, you might have noticed that I mentioned the word "extremists".

In the titanic clash between facism and communism, it was the western democracies who were the middle ground.

And when it came to child raping Russians vs Nazi murders (just as mosque burning neo-nazis vs islamic fascists), I and my family tradition of soldiering has ever been stauchly on the side of the allies, and their love for freedom and human dignity/rights.

Contary to popular opinion, fighting fire with fire only results in more fire. Try water instead ;-)

By all means kills/imprison/neutralise as many extremist Islamo fascists as you want, I'm right there with you, but do not expect for a minute that I will accept the killings innocent muslims as being justified.

When the allies landed in Europe they didn't start throwing the German civilians into death camps did they?

Cheers,
Dave


How about clearly stating that those that defendthemselves against the attacks of evil nazi aggressors are not morally equivalent to the aggressors.

THere is a big difference between "defending" oneself and the moral equivalent (say burning a mosque down) of fire bombing Dresden.

I am no supporter of Nazi war crimes, or of Islmaic atrocities against the west, it doesn't mean I am going to support similar actions in retaliation.

{FYI; I think the war on terror is justified, US military prescence in Iraq must remain, and the existence of an Israeli state is just peachy by me)

Cheers,
David.


In the titanic clash between facism and communism, it was the western democracies who were the middle ground.

Ideologically, fascism and communism are different sides of the same coin. They are not opposite extremes. The false left-right model is just a deceptive way for socialists to distance themselves from fascists. Fascism and Communism are the opposite of freedom/human rights.

By all means kills/imprison/neutralise as many extremist Islamo fascists as you want, I'm right there with you, but do not expect for a minute that I will accept the killings innocent muslims as being justified.

I certainly don't support the deliberate killing of innocent people, and this conversation isn't about that. So big time Straw Man!

When the allies landed in Europe they didn't start throwing the German civilians into death camps did they?

No, of course not. Your point? Who has done that? Like Israel and the US in the WOT, the allies did kill civilians.

The point is: Can you make a moral distinction between the allies and the axis powers?

If so, given that the current Israel-PLO conflict is a DIRECT continuation of the conflict of ww2, can you make a moral distinction between these two parties. Anyone who claims that there is a middle ground between hitler and the jews is supporting hitler. Al-Husseini convinced Hitler about the final solution, and commanded a Nazi division. His nephew, Arafat, has been trying to complete this work, with the support of the Nazi parties in Iraq and Syria, started by Al-Husseini.

That's what this thread is really about. Nazi supporters have intimidated norwegian jews to not show up, and if they do, they cannot even wave an israeli flag in a commemoration of the holocaust. The fact that these nazi supporters may not realize that they are supporting Nazi ideology is no excuse. The germans said the same.

This is the monster that Norway gave legitimacy to and treated as a statesman. How ironic that Quisling won after all...


>> I am no supporter of Nazi war crimes

A curious and disturbing distinction, implying that you do support Nazis, just not the war crimes?


fascism and communism are different sides of the same coin.

And the conceptual difference between one fanatic attacking muslim schools and another religious fanatic attacking a film producer is?

I certainly don't support the deliberate killing of innocent people, and this conversation isn't about that. .

You have claimed consistently that anyone (specifically Bergen) who is opposed to these terror attacks (whether provoking or revenging), is somehow sitting on a figurative fence , in your own words appeasing Nazis/terrorists.

Your posts have led me to believe that you view the arsonists as being on your “side”, in this war, seemingly on every Islamic, than surely you must condoning terrorism, and these arson attacks against innocents also.

The point is: Can you make a moral distinction between the allies and the axis powers?

I think I proved this earlier when I mentioned my opposition for fascist and communist totalitarian powers, and support for western democracies (allies).

The only point that has relevance to this thread is; Can you make a moral distinction between those who oppose terrorism – regardless of its justification, and those who use terrorist attacks to express their own ideological perspectives – Islamic Fascist Terrorists, Dutch Arsonists, IRA atc…

With your neo-Clausewitzian Total War mentality I doubt this very much.

Not once, has either Bergen or I declared support for Islamic terrorism, or for these long dead WW2 Nazis, and I don’t believe ever mentioning giving in to such people’s demands (appeasement) or merely ignoring their actions.


That's what this thread is really about. Nazi supporters have intimidated norwegian jews to not show up, and if they do, they cannot even wave an israeli flag in a commemoration of the holocaust.

Um …actually this thread is about an increase in anti-muslim violence and racism. As for the Israeli flag, why should a symbol of Israeli nationalism be mandatory at an antiracism/holocaust commemoration when the Star of David, a common symbol of Jewish faith, was actually allow/encouraged??? The actions of Nazis were against the Jews not against the state of Israel (which didn’t even exist at the time).

The fact that these nazi supporters may not realize that they are supporting Nazi ideology is no excuse.

So now the SOS Rasisme is Nazi organisation sprouting anti-racism slogans as a cover for its Jew-hatred? I’m sure news of this will come as a surprise to many of its members.


Bjørn’s clarification of the Issue:

that's not what we're talking about here. Some anti-Islamic nut bombed a primary school - that's what we're talking about. A school.

You’re (Gunnar’s) response:

1)

when anti-semitic fascists start to gain power, and start killing people, crush them with all abandon. Nuke the moon.

2)

Round up and detain for questioning every potential radical. If they aren't dutch citizens, deport them. Take biometrics from them all

Were you referring to the total Islam-Dutch population in quote 2 or only those justifiably suspected of terrorist links?

When a rat in a basement full of rats bites and kills your child, a wise parent would get rid of all the rats, not just the one that did the deed.
For the previous question I guess yes, as you use rat as a euphemism for Muslim. I take it you advocate harassing all Muslims rather than just the ones who are definitely terrorist?

James said: ”The war of civilizations is growing plainer, and it is harder not to choose sides”
Even though the fence is tattered and barely standing, I'm sure that some folks will still attempt to sit on it.

Your protestations I don't support the deliberate killing of innocent people, and this conversation isn't about that seem to be belied by your earlier statements.


The sad thing is compared to some others on this blog you’re relatively benign.

Dave


A curious and disturbing distinction, implying that you do support Nazis, just not the war crimes?

To make it even more blatantly obvious so that even Gunnar will not misunderstand, I don't support; eugencies, racism, concept of teutonic supremacy, state control oppression, militarism, invading neighbouring countries, command economies (socialism) or any other form of Nazi ideology.

The only distinction here is between actions and beliefs. If some one worships a strange religion or holds racists ideals, this is of no concern to me. If they start trying to use this ideas/beliefs as a justification to attack/oppression/kill or do whatever to other people than of course no.

This is the only reason why I didn't explicitly state that I am against Nazis ideological theory (ie that statement was comparing the actions of Fascists to Islamic Fascists, their beliefs are very much different), that and the fact I didn't realise that my support for Western democracies, liberalised economies, racial tolerance, freedom of speech and association could be misconstrued as support for fascism.

Cheers,
Dave.


Ok, I got my threads mixed up. I thought I was responding in the "No Jews on Kristallnacht?" thread, which has no connection to the Dutch situation.

To help clear up the confusion that I've caused, my views about sitting on the fence are regarding PLO and Israel. I apologize to øyvind for my remarks, which taken in the context of the Dutch situation, were totally out of line.

I view the Dutch situation in a much different way. First of all, although the motivation may be similar, it's a murder and not terrorism. The reprisals against innocent muslims are deplorable, and are symptomatic of an unacknowledged culture war in Europe made worse by a weak democratic system and overly PC environment.

I agree with the Bush view that peaceful muslims are not the enemy, only radical islamo-fascists. So, when I said "rats", I was only thinking about terrorists and the states that sponsor them. I was explaining why for example, Bush wants to keep it vague as to exactly which "rat" did the deed. They (terrorists & the sponsor states) all could have.

Oops :)


The reprisals against innocent muslims are deplorable, [sic] peaceful muslims are not the enemy, only radical islamo-fascists.

pfew! For a moment there I'd thought you'd been overcome by anti-Islamic blood lust.

Should have known better!

Cheers,
Dave


To make it even more blatantly obvious so that even Gunnar will not misunderstand, I don't support; eugencies, racism, concept of teutonic supremacy, state control oppression, militarism, invading neighbouring countries, command economies (socialism) or any other form of Nazi ideology.

The only distinction here is between actions and beliefs. If some one worships a strange religion or holds racists ideals, this is of no concern to me. If they start trying to use this ideas/beliefs as a justification to attack/oppression/kill or do whatever to other people than of course no.

Ok, even I understand the clarity of that. We're in complete agreement on what you state here.


>> Were you referring to the total Islam-Dutch population in quote 2 or only those justifiably suspected of terrorist links?

ONLY those justifiably suspected of terrorist links.

>> Should have known better!

Understandable that you didn't. Again, I apologize.


I have however noticed the links you were trying to draw between Muslims and the Nazi regime.

Its very telling that in the SS were a number of muslims divisions, such as the Handschar and Kama Waffen SS.

Indeed during the war, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was known to have had contact with the Nazi in relation to supplies of the weapon; Karibiner 98k, 7.92mm.

Fleming, David. (2003) Weapons of the Waffen SS.


"I don't support; eugencies, racism, concept of teutonic supremacy, state control oppression, militarism, invading neighbouring countries, command economies (socialism) or any other form of Nazi ideology." David

Neither do I with one exception - that is militarism.

Anyone thinking about cutting the military as to save money as a lot of politicians do are begging disaster.

Our capacity and willingness to strike back and lead multiple wars at once is essential to keep ourself and Taiwan, S Korea from being overrun and thus remain free.

If we grow weak military that will be the end of us. Sorry to say that but that´s the way I think it will be.

And if we are not determined to strike back at terrorists and any nation helping them they will just keep on killing us eventually in 100000´s per act. They may do so anyway - but we will make it much harder for them and stop them more often than they succeed.

Furthermore I think there should be military interventions where there is genocide. Rwanda a good example - now Sudan.

We need to be militant and even preemptive and as military superior as at all possible the Bush administration got that right - Europe should start to wake up.

This of course does not exclude trying to implement benevolent policies like helping nations peacefully and economically and negotiating a solution to the Palestine/Israel conflict. On the contrary it makes it a better option for the rest of the world to live in peace with us.

Chamberlain is ok just as long as he use absolute safeguards as back up.

Churchillain :)


Hansen, Gunnar et alias,

Yes a military superiority is a must, but the problem is more complex, this war is not wholly physical. The violence ,terrorism etc, are just symptoms, the root cause is the evil ideology/ the quranic interpretations. Islam is a predatory belief system, when muslims are weak/minority they profess a religion of love and tolerance. When they are in power, they ruthlessly suppress other creeds and extinguish freedom and liberty. A Cult will brook no competing ideology. Also there is the problem of taquiyyah or religiously sanctioned dissimulation to confuse enemy infidels. Also there is the special phenomenon of general and special 'fardhs' or obligations. The general fardhs are like 5x obligatory prayer, paying zakat/tithe, making hajj/pilgrimage etc...the special 'fardhs' are for special departments of the muslim community/Ummah( the mother brood --shades of alien! gasp!)which allow for special mujahideen departments to wage holy war against infidel and perpetrate atrocities to further islam and allah and shariah. So your 'innocent' muslim may overtly deplore the violence committed by islamist terrorist, but covertly rejoice at the death of one more infidel. The also covertly and indirectly support the violent activities of their special 'fardh' /special force bretheren by their generous tithe ---and there is no paper trail, since in the islamist world there is a parallel underground cash only banking system. All this is very neat isn't it ex christian and to think that you accuse me of ignorance of your Great and beautiful and blah this and blah that religion. What is so great and beautiful about Islam that hangs a sixteen yr old girl because she was dating a boy and uncovering her head dress in court ...and this infuriated the presiding islamist judge so badly that he ordered the girl hanged. What is so beautiful about a religion that admonishes its followers to kill, maim and pillage unbelievers, and further tell them that it is better to be actively killing infidels than to be just a passive believer in its doctrines. eX Christian , you may be able to fool the western liberalist and apologist, but you ain't fooling this korean county girl none !!!. We south koreans live everyday under the spectre of another form of cultic fasciscm that of the grand ayatollah Kim Jong Il of north korea. His minions and 'innocent'followers worship him as a prophet . The leaders of islamoFascism finds in him a faithful brother-- they say evil birds of a feather flock together. Nazism, Cultism, Fasciscm, IslamoFascism, Theocratic-fascism are all the same beast wearing a different face. For eye opening essay go to this site:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/cultorreligion.htm

for another shocker please go to:

http://www.christianpost.com/dbase/editorial/31/full/1.htm

Thank you/Kamseh Hamneeda

Kim Sook-Im,USA

Kim sook-Im, USA


Yes a military superiority is a must, but the problem is more complex, this war is not wholly physical. The violence ,terrorism etc, are just symptoms, the root cause is the evil ideology/ the quranic interpretations. Islam is a predatory belief system

Kim, I suspect you're right, but if so, it's not a problem for governments to solve. That would be a battle for the hearts and minds. However, seeing the radical elements crushed under foot also teaches a theological lesson: "Maybe Allah wasn't helping them".

We stand with you against the NK commies. He was just about to collapse. Too bad Clinton and South korean guy decided to "engage", which actually meant "prop him up". Now, he's more dangerous than ever. Another victory for appeasement.


Dear Gunnar,

You mentioned that religious ideologies is not for government to solve...again at the risk of sounding repetitious, you must understand that islam is not any religion, mullahIslam is a killing machine with the ultimate goal of arabization /bedouinization and subjugation of the world to Allah and the hateful barbaric shariah. Islam does not distinguish between state and religion, they are both synonymous. Affairs of the state are affairs of Islam. I refer you to this eye opening article:

Tack sa mycket,

Kim Sook-Im

DEMOCRACY AND FREEDOM !
Overwinning aan democratie en vrijheid!
seger till demokrati och friheten!
자유와 민주주의에 승리!!!


"when muslims are weak/minority they profess a religion of love and tolerance." Kim Sook

Well there are many moslems which profess love and tolerance because they do love and tolerate.

As well as there are weak minority moslems which express hatred and intolerance.

Now Islam do have some problems with it´s tenets and it´s fundamentalism, that is a question of reform and really that reform we can´t do for them.

The true name of any intolerant fundamentalism including the one of Islam is hate.

Any clinging to ideals is really fundamentalism I cling to freedom and will not bargain over it much. The moslem to Islam and won´t bargain over it much.

The war is in ideas as well and if it could be kept there it would be cool - If in the long run it should turn out it can´t we have to place our trust in military superiority.

It wasn´t just the allied armies which defeated Germany ( or Japan ) - it was also their own shame, their own coming to terms as to how far they went in their hatred. That coupled with marshall help and not something like the versaillés treaty.

The price we know was very high and it was the price of appeasement and looking the other way of manic pacifism in the wake of 1 WW.

The second option would have been invading germany and kicking out the nazis, but that would not have solved the problem of the German hate. In the long run though germany ( and jews and gypsies etc. ) might had been free of both the nazis and the hate.

The third option would have been military budget lift not only in quantity but quality or military superiority in short as to contain the regime as long as it would take for it to collapse and the hate to cool down.

In case of Germany 1933 I would have voted for the second option but that´s easy retrospect - they did not know what we know this day.

As for the situation this day I stick with the 3´rd option in general.

The situation today is more complex and I am afraid there are no answers which is not hard.

As for Fighting fire with fire don´t work - water does. It´s not really that simple though I wish it was.

I am strong admirer of Ghandi and read his Autobiography and several books about him. His "An eye for eye makes the whole world blind" is a pearl. If the whole world were adopting Ahimsa (non violence) we would have a much better place to live this day. But it will not be enough for one part to adopt this way of thinking.

Fire may be extinquished by water but fires may also grow so extensive and so hot that the water we can muster won´t do to stop it.
Sometimes fire grows so strong and hot that it has to kill itself in it´s rage eating all oxygene. This has happened before and might happen again as the world is constructed.

We live in the backfire of ages of hate and conquest. When people like George Tenet talk about 4 worldwars, the WOT being the 4´th. The just as true thing is That is has been one long domino brick line of world war since 1914. The endless chord of backfire. And even choices we make today can backfire on us - especially the choice of betting on Pakistan as an ally. This land harbor terrorists including Al-queda and Bin laden. Has assisted terrorists including Al-queda and North Korea in their effort to get WMD. And the country is ripe with fundamentalism stretching way into the ranks of army and intelligence service. This gamble we must hope will work because war would be costly in lives with Pakistan especially if they resolved to using nukes. But eventually this gamble can result in a 100000 + thousand ( extra )dying in a western city somewhere or even in that one day we have to engage a much stronger Pakistan in warfare - this is really the stake. It´s a delicate balance and there are no simple answers It´s always been that way and there are no signs of it changing overnight.

The hate inside you tells just as must about yourself as what you hate.

But hate is here and we have to take it and it´s effects into consideration.


hi hansen and gunnar et al.

sorry i forgot to include the link regarding 'islam as a tool of domination', here is the link:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/sina41116.htm

thanks,

Kim Sook-Im, USA


I do not agree with T. Hansen in many issues. What he wrote in his last post above, however, is something I can mostly agree with.

I think these lines are especially true: Well, there are many moslems which profess love and tolerance because they do love and tolerate. As well as there are weak minority moslems which express hatred and intolerance

I also agree there are problems in mainstream Islam. These problems are problems we can address, but the ones that really need to adress them are the Muslims themselves. I have seen many Muslims that have done that. Those Muslims are worthy of our support. Not of our hatred.

Øyvind


Amy G. USA


''Ex-C:

Getting pregnant has nothing to do with equality between men and women.''

Hi Amy, so far, you were reasonable and ' respectful' not like the other mindless Islamophobes here so you deserve a detailed response.

Of course, there are physical differences between man and woman, these differences cant be dismissed at all, otherwise why men and women dont play football together ? :))


''P.S. I was reading over some old topics, and I saw in one of your comments that you laughed at the "Christian logic of 1+1+1=1" (refering to the Holy Trinity). Now, if you were REALLY an ex-Christian, wouldn't you understand the concept of the Holy Trinity? All REAL Christians know that the Holy Trinity isn't three separate things, but parts of a whole, of One.''

You know Amy, I know christianity and its doctrine more than any average christian, perhpas that is why I converted to Islam.

trinity is basically saying 1+1+1 = 1 or saying 1=3 and 3=1 of course many priests try hard to explain this to me but it does not make any sense.

Many christians from many christian dominations dont believe in this pagan concept, so why you are surprised ?

Also, I just want to give you some links about ISLAM and WOMEN, these links are the SOURCES, other links which the mindless Islamophobes put here are anti muslim hate links so be careful:


MUSLIM WOMEN LEAGUE- USA:

http://www.mwlusa.org


SISTERS IN ISLAM:

http://www.sistersinislam.net


Aziz Magazine:

http://www.azizahmagazine.com


Why I took the hijab ( Headscarf )

Hilary Saunders used to think that Islam was a relic from the dark ages. Now she has converted. Here she explains why

http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,2763,740616,00.html


Women turning to Islam - islam growing in the west

Unprecedented numbers of British people, nearly all of them women, are converting to Islam at a time of deep divisions within the Anglican and Catholic churches.

http://www.newscuts.com/cgi-bin/pread.cgi?p=http://www.prweb.com/releases/2004/7/prwebxml138378.php

I will be more than pleased to answer 'all' your questions about Islam as long as they are respectful and in the spirit of finding out the truth.



Everyone in Europe should listen to the radical islamist on this blog. This is our future.
Would you trust your children to this fanatic?


Thanks for answering my questions Ex-C. But I still don't believe that women are equal to men under Islam. The prophet himself said that women are inferior mentally and spiritually. I can dig up the Koran verse if you want.


Hi Amy,

be careful....ex-christian having been infected by the islamo-virus, is attempting what is called in arabid " dawah" or attempting to surreptitiously convert you, by presenting you islamist propaganda....you see the arab-religion he practises is a very rude and vainglorious religion. Islamist are always declaring proudly to the world that they are the fastest growing, their religion is the prettiest, the most beautiful, the greatest, the bestest blah blah blah blah blah....essentially a bunch of bullshit ( pardonez moi my french o.k.)....YOU CAN IMMMEDIATELY SEE THE WORKINGS OF A CULT... if your religion is so great why are you trying to sell it ? the greatness of a Faith is not in its advertising, but in its works and in its fruits.........the very wise and divinely inspired Jesus of Nazareth ( which buddhists rever as the mahaBoddhisata - a most compassionate Buddha of the west) declares: by their fruits shall ye know them.....THE FRUITS OF MULLAH ISLAM ARE ROTTEN, EVERYWHERE THAT THIS CULT HAS TAINTED HUMANITY, YOU SEE VIOLENCE, MAYHEM, HATE, MURDER, BACKWARDNESS, EVIL ...NOTHING GOOD..........SAYING THAT your religion is good, and that women have this and that rights are empty rhetoric....ask him about the status of women in pakistan and saudi arabia , ex christian is always pointing out how many rapes etc occur in western world, well in the mullahislamic world they just kill the rape victim (honor killings) and award the rapist ha ha ha. The despicable hudud laws of the shariah declares a women guilty of Zina/adultery if she is pregnant outside of marriage, even though she may have been raped, she is still liable for the situation she is in and will be stoned to death...welcome to beautiful islam....AND WHAT IS THAT I HEAR YOU SAY EX-CHRISTIAN, THAT WE ARE ISLAMOPHOBES AND THAT WE ARE NOT RESPECTFUL OF ISLAMISTS....SINCE WHEN WERE ISLAMISTS RESPECTUFL OF OTHERS, YOU WOULD'NT KNOW RESPECT IF IT BIT YOU IN THE BUTT HAAAAH!

Truth in point is folks....ex-christian is indoctrinated with this islamovirus thing that has warped his sense of morality , he's a sort of doctor jackal and mr. hyde now....if he starts growing a beard and read more of the mullah version of islam and become more pious, then his paradigm shift becomes more complete. HE IS EXCHIBITING EXACTLY THE BEHAVIOUR PATTERNS OF THE INDOCTRINATED MINIONS/SLAVES OF THE OTHER NORTH KOREAN AYATOLLAH KIM JONG-IL. His north korean subjects worship him and his late father as divinity and they have this outlandish and outrageous propaganda about how great Grand ayatollah Kim is, and how he had made korea into a wonderful paradise ( yeah where millions starve to death and we in south korea and the rest of the world have to donate food and do charity to keep them alive, so they can nuke us LOL), this Cult of ayatollah Kim jong-il, keeps the north korean masses in the dark , and keeps the rang and file members compliant through threats , intimidation and assasination.....sounds very muh like mullah-islam. Mullah islam does the same, self agrandizement( despite the stark fact of reality), lying, cheating, dissimulation, cultic behaviour, intimidating members of the religion with death for apostasy or leaving islam. IF ALLAH IS SO GREAT WHY DOES HE NEED MEN TO DO HIS DIRTY JOB, IF ISLAM IS SO GREAT AND FREE WHY DO MUSLIMS KILL APOSTATES AND ANYONE THAT BLASPHEME THE PROPHET OR ISLAM = SAME IN NORTH KOREA IF YOU BLASPHEME THE AYATOLLAH KIM JONG-IL, HE WILL LIQUIDATE YOU, IF YOU QUESTION HIS RELIGION WHICH IS KIM JONG-ISM, HE WILL CUT OUT YOU TONGUE...NO WONDER THE ISLAMIST MULLAHS AND AYATOLLAH KIM ARE SUCH GREAT BUDDIES...THEY ARE OF THE SAME ILK-- EVIL MEN RUNNING EVIL RELIGIOUS MAFIAS - the one mullah-islam, the other mullah-korea.

o.k. Ex-muslim, if you are man enuf come on in and let's spare, dont be hiding behind that islamophobe sh_t ! ( pardonez moi, mais je parles de plus en plus l'argotisme vulgaire ha ha ha

Kim Sook-Im
Free sweden from dangerous mullah-islam !!! :))

befria Sverige från farlig religion av mullah - Islam!!! :))

回教...離開瑞典!!! :))

이슬람교...스웨덴의 나가십시요!!!! :))


Also, I just want to give you some links about ISLAM and WOMEN, these links are the SOURCES, other links which the mindless Islamophobes put here are anti muslim hate links so be careful:

Take note of this mentality: dissent = bad. Very telling.


KIM:

I almost find myself thinking a bit like Øyvind when I read you sometimes - OMG zealot vs zealot.

But then again me wishing or anyone wishing that you are not largely right, doesn´t change the direction the world is heading.

I have also chosen my side it happened in the period before and when Breslan took place, not that it was Breslan that did it but it certainly helped the course.

I too though believe in political correctness though I don´t believe in pretend or naivety it´s important to keep in mind that most moslems are genuine and sincere but often blind people that will be just as horrified by the actions of the jihadist terrorists as most of us will.

The problem may lie in part in Islam, but in the end it lies in the heart of mankind.

I suggest that all read this article by Ali Sina, it´s really an eye - opener:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/sina41011.htm

The world is infected by hate and unable to recognize and grasp the cure.

"Jesus of Nazareth ( which buddhists rever as the mahaBoddhisata - a most compassionate Buddha of the west)" Kim

If people were to be embraced by the complete infinite love and forgiveness, the total all embracing, unwaning in any case, love of Christ the most sad thing is that even facing it, embraced by it, they would not believe it to be real. They can´t in anyway understand or even as much as consider the very existance of this love much less it´s power and unlimited range.
And even the relatively few that in theory accept this love as "love for all - forgiving all" and have the hunch it must be so. If they were to be embraced by it for real it would still very very much knock their feets of the ground and appear to them as something that is to good to be real.

The root cause of the troubles we stand in today and the troubles that harassed the world in the aftermath of ww 1 is hate. We can call it by thousand other names, name each of it hydra heads something new, but the root remain the same: hate and it´s two best allies, fear and ignorance.

And it takes love the heal the hate and find a permanent solution to the that problem, love, wisdom, without fear.

The sad truth is that we are facing a group that in hate and nihilism directed towards people who do not share their belief and the very world we live in are willing to kill almost infinite numbers if they feel it with serve their cause and if they can get SUPPORT and save their place in heaven they will do so - some of them might do it don´t matter what.

We can try to counter this every way possible, Through the WOT, the battle of ideas, Through supporting reform and liberty, through embracing higher and universal ideals, and hope we will succeed more than we will fail.

But the fact we have to face that even though they may be few, even though they are not a majority, they are here trying to get WMD and to turn the world into a macro version of Israel vs Palestine and with use of WMD, larger and apocalyptical scale.

Most vital in this fight is that the Moslem world as widely as possible renounce the thoughts and actions of these people and turn to Allah as the God of all, and most merciful of all. This will make them lose the base in the hearts and minds of the of the large numbers that indirectly support them. And in the long run it could prove more important than killing them or destroying their bases which will only delay them.

Once people start to die in millions due to their WMD attacks nothing will be able to stop the fire of hate, anger, revenge which will burn till it strangles itself.


Amy G, USA

''Thanks for answering my questions Ex-C. But I still don't believe that women are equal to men under Islam. The prophet himself said that women are inferior mentally and spiritually. I can dig up the Koran verse if you want.''


Hi Amy, I hope you had the chance to have a look at the sites I gave you.

The Noble Quran does NOT have any verses about women being inferior mentally and spiritually, you can take your time and try to search but dont waste your time because such verses certainly does NOT exist.

Let me help you by giving you some verses from the Noble Quran which talks about EQUALITY between man and woman:

let me start by saying that there is a whole chapter in the Noble Quran called AL NISA ( Women ), show me one holy book which has the same ?

Spiritual Equality of Women and Men:

''Allah has got ready forgiveness and tremendous rewards for the Muslim men and women; the believing men and women; the devout men and women; the truthful men and women; the patiently suffering men and women; the humble men and women; the almsgiving men and women; the fasting men and women, the men and women who guard their chastity; and the men and women who are exceedingly mindful of Allah.'' (The Noble Quran 33:35)

Attitudes towards women:
''O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good.'' (The Noble Quran, An-Nisa (women ) 4:19)

Collaboration and consultation:

The believing men and women, are associates and helpers of each other. They (collaborate) to promote all that is beneficial and discourage all that is evil; to establish prayers and give alms, and to obey Allah and his Messenger. Those are the people whom Allah would grant mercy. Indeed Allah is Mighty and Wise. (The Noble Quran 9:71)

Examples of Consensual Decision Making:

''If both spouses decide, by mutual consent and consultation, on weaning [their baby], there is no blame on either. If you want to have your babies breastfed by a foster mother you are not doing anything blame-worthy provided you pay to the fostermother what you had agreed to offer, in accordance with the established manner. Fear Allah and know that Allah is aware it what you are doing". (The Noble Quran 2:233)

Women's Right to Attend Mosques:

Narrated Ibn Umar: The Prophet (p.b.u.h) said, "Allow women to go to the Mosques at night." (Bukhari Volume 2, Book 13, Number 22)

Narrated Ibn Umar: One of the wives of Umar (bin Al-Khattab) used to offer the Fajr and the 'Isha' prayer in congregation in the Mosque. She was asked why she had come out for the prayer as she knew that Umar disliked it, and he has great ghaira (self-respect). She replied, "What prevents him from stopping me from this act?" The other replied, "The statement of Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) : 'Do not stop Allah's women-slave from going to Allah s Mosques' prevents him." (Bukhari Volume 2, Book 13, Number 23)

Ibn 'Umar reported: Grant permission to women for going to the mosque in the night. His son who was called Waqid said: Then they would make mischief. He (the narrator) said: He thumped his (son's) chest and said: I am narrating to you the hadith of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him), and you say: No! (Sahih Muslim Book 004, Number 0890)

Ibn Umar reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Do not deprive women of their share of the mosques, when they seek permission from you. Bilal said: By Allah, we would certainly prevent them. 'Abdullah said: I say that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said it and you say: We would certainly prevent them! (Sahih Muslim Book 004, Number 0891)

Yahya related to me from Malik from Yahya ibn Said that Atika bint Zayd ibn Amr ibn Nufayl, the wife of Umar ibn al-Khattab, used to ask Umar ibn al-Khattab for permission to go to the mosque. He would keep silent, so she would say, "By Allah, I will go out, unless you forbid me," and he would not forbid her. (Sunan Abu Dawud Book 14, Number 14.5.14)

The Common Performance of Ablutions:

Narrated Ibn Umar: "It used to be that men and women would perform ablutions together in the time of the Messenger of Allah's assembly." (Bukhari: 1: Ch. 45, Book of Ablution)

Women's Right of Proposal:

Narrated Sahl: A woman came to the Prophet, and presented herself to him (for marriage). He said, "I am not in need of women these days." Then a man said, "O Allah's Apostle! Marry her to me." The Prophet asked him, "What have you got?" He said, "I have got nothing." The Prophet said, "Give her something, even an iron ring." He said, "I have got nothing." The Prophet asked (him), "How much of the Quran do you know (by heart)?" He said, "So much and so much." The Prophet said, "I have married her to you for what you know of the Quran." (Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 72)

Women's Right of Permission:

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "A matron should not be given in marriage except after consulting her; and a virgin should not be given in marriage except after her permission." The people asked, "O Allah's Apostle! How can we know her permission?" He said, "Her silence (indicates her permission)." (Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 67)

Narrated Khansa bint Khidam Al-Ansariya that her father gave her in marriage when she was a matron and she disliked that marriage. So she went to Allah's Apostle and he declared that marriage invalid. (Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 69)

The Right of Women not to be Forced:

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: Barira's husband was a slave called Mughith, as if I am seeing him now, going behind Barira and weeping with his tears flowing down his beard. The Prophet said to 'Abbas, "O 'Abbas ! are you not astonished at the love of Mughith for Barira and the hatred of Barira for Mughith?" The Prophet then said to Barira, "Why don't you return to him?" She said, "O Allah's Apostle! Do you order me to do so?" He said, "No, I only intercede for him." She said, "I am not in need of him." (Bukhari: Volume 7, Book 63, Number 206)

Asserting Women's Rights:

Ibn Al-Jauzi narrated the virtues and merits of Umar bin Al-Khattab (Allah bless him) in the following words: Umar forbade the people from paying excessive dowries and addressed them saying: "Don't fix the dowries for women over forty ounces. If ever that is exceeded I shall deposit the excess amount in the public treasury". As he descended from the pulpit, a flat-nosed lady stood up from among the women audience, and said: "It is not within your right". Umar asked: "Why should this not be of my right?" she replied: "Because Allah has proclaimed: 'even if you had given one of them (wives) a whole treasure for dowry take not the least bit back. Would you take it by false claim and a manifest sin'". (Al Nisa, 20). When he heard this, Umar said: "The woman is right and the man (Umar) is wrong. It seems that all people have deeper insight and wisdom than Umar". Then he returned to the pulpit and declared: "O people, I had restricted the giving of more than four hundred dirhams in dowry. Whosoever of you wishes to give in dowry as much as he likes and finds satisfaction in so doing may do so". quoted in: "On the Position and Role of Women in Islam and Islamic Society"

Seeking advice and comfort:

Narrated 'Aisha (the mother of the faithful believers): ... Then Allah's Apostle returned with the Inspiration and with his heart beating severely. Then he went to Khadija bint Khuwailid and said, "Cover me! Cover me!" They covered him till his fear was over and after that he told her everything that had happened and said, "I fear that something may happen to me." Khadija replied, "Never! By Allah, Allah will never disgrace you. You keep good relations with your kith and kin, help the poor and the destitute, serve your guests generously and assist the deserving calamity-afflicted ones." Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza ... (Bukhari Volume 1, Book 1, Number 3)

The Characteristics of a Believing Man:

Narrated AbuHurayrah: Allah's Messenger (pbuh) said: a believing man should not hate a believing woman; if he dislikes one of her characteristics, he will be pleased with another. (Muslim Book 8, Number 3469)

The Education of Women:

Narrated Abu Said: A woman came to Allah's Apostle and said, "O Allah's Apostle! Men (only) benefit by your teachings, so please devote to us from (some of) your time, a day on which we may come to you so that you may teach us of what Allah has taught you." Allah's Apostle said, "Gather on such-and-such a day at such-and-such a place." They gathered and Allah's Apostle came to them and taught them of what Allah had taught him. (Bukhari Volume 9, Book 92, Number 413)

On the Treatment of Women:

Narrated Mu'awiyah al-Qushayri: I went to the Apostle of Allah (pbuh) and asked him: "What do you say (command) about our wives?" He replied: "Give them food what you have for yourself, and clothe them by which you clothe yourself, and do not beat them, and do not revile them." (Sunan Abu Dawud: Book 11, Number 2139) "The best of you is one who is best towards his family and I am best towards the family". (At-Tirmithy). "None but a noble man treats women in an honourable manner. And none but an ignoble treats women disgracefully". (At-Tirmithy).

A Husband must keep the Privacy of his Wife
Narrated AbuSa'id al-Khudri: Allah's Messenger (peace_be_upon_him) said: The most wicked among the people in the eye of Allah on the Day of Judgement is the man who goes to his wife and she comes to him, and then he divulges her secret. (Muslim Book 8, Number 3369)

A Husband's Attitude:

'Umar ibn al-Khattab said that a man came to his house to complain about his wife. On reaching the door of his house, he hears 'Umar's wife shouting at him and reviling him. Seeing this, he was about to go back, thinking that 'Umar himself was in the same position and, therefore, could hardly suggest any solution for his problem. 'Umar (RA) saw the man turn back, so he called him and enquired about the purpose of his visit. He said that he had come with a complaint against his wife, but turned back on seeing the Caliph in the same position. 'Umar (RA) told him that he tolerated the excesses of his wife for she had certain rights against him. He said, "Is it not true that she prepares food for me, washes clothes for me and suckles my children, thus saving me the expense of employing a cook, a washerman and a nurse, though she is not legally obliged in any way to do any of these things? Besides, I enjoy peace of mind because of her and am kept away from indecent acts on account of her. I therefore tolerate all her excesses on account of these benefits. It is right that you should also adopt the same attitude." quoted in Rahman, Role of Muslim Women page 149

The Prophet's Disapproval of Women Beaters
Patient behavior was the practice of the Prophet, even when his wife dared to address him harshly. Once his mother-in-law- saw her daughter strike him with her fist on his noble chest. When the enraged mother -in-law began to reproach her daughter, the Prophet smilingly said, "Leave her alone; they do worse than that." And once Abu Bakr, his father-in-law, was invited to settle some misunderstanding between him and Aishah. The Prophet said to her, "Will you speak, or shall I speak?" Aisha said, "You speak, but do not say except the truth." Abu Bakr was so outraged that he immediately struck her severely, forcing her to run and seek protection behind the back of the Prophet. Abu Bakr said, "O you the enemy of herself! Does the Messenger of Allah say but the truth?" The Prophet said, "O Abu Bakr, we did not invite you for this [harsh dealing with Aishah], nor did we anticipate it." quoted in: Mutual Rights and Obligations.


I really hope you will read the above and give me your comments.



Jeff,

''Take note of this mentality: dissent = bad. Very telling.''

Since when creating hate sites against Islam amounts to dissent ?? what kind of twisted logic you have ??

May Allah Almigty cure you!



Blythe

''Everyone in Europe should listen to the radical islamist on this blog. This is our future. ''


If defending islam and refuting the lies some mindless Islamophobes spread about this great religion is radicalism, then I am VERY PROUD RADICAL ISLAMIST :))))

You guys amuse me so much, keep it up, it is fun :)))



Ex-C:

Since when creating hate sites against Islam amounts to dissent ?? what kind of twisted logic you have ??

You call Answering Islam a hate site, then refer to Answering Christanity? *cough*doublestandard*cough*

May Allah Almigty cure you!

To paraphrase from Rosemary's Baby, "Allah is dead! Satan lives! Hail Satan!"

;-)


Jeff:

I already explained to you that http://www.answering-christianity.com was established as a response to answering islam hate site, please scroll up.

As to your comment about Satan, here is my answer:

''He (Satan) said, "My Lord, since You have willed that I go astray, I will surely entice them on earth; I will send them all astray. Except those among Your worshipers who are devoted absolutely to You alone." He (God) said, "This is a law that is inviolable: you have no power over my servants; you only have power over the strayers who follow you." [The Noble Quran 15:39-42]

Certainly, you are one of those strayers who follow Satan.

''Satan makes them promises, and creates in them false desires; but satan's promises are nothing but deception.'' ( The Noble Quran 4:120 )

''These ( the followes of Satan )are they whose abode is hell, and they shall not find any refuge from it.'' ( The Noble Quran 4:121 )


BUT:

"Those who ally themselves with GOD and His messenger, and those who believed, belong in the party of GOD; absolutely, they are the victors." [The Noble Quran 5:56]

:))))


Hi amy,ex-christian et alias

salaam alaykum ,
kayfa halukum alyaum?

o.k. regarding all those nice and pretty quotes by ex-christian, know that it is just plain propaganda , nothing more nothing less...the proof is in the pudding. Go to the headquarters of the ahl sunnah wa ljamaah ie. the hdquarters of the modern day islamic pharasees ie. saudi arabia and see if you enjoy all those fairy tale rights that ex-christian so cleverly want us to belief. Heh ex christian you can quote till your fingers turn blue, that does not change the fact that the situation of women in islamic country is dismal. They are kept in ignorance and servitude period. Would be nice if you stop trying to white wash the fact and call honest debate , an honest debate and not try to paint your opponents in a debate as kafeer and enemies and islamophobes...you see as a member of the super cult of mohammad you are incapable of introspection and thise goes for millions and millions of good muslim people, not that they are in and of themselves evil, but they are caught up in this horrible mafioso and theocratic conspiracy...which keeps them in control with fear and retaliation and retribution ...why do you think vanGogh was murdered..he was engaging in a vociferous debate with the islamists and instead of suing him , they killed him.One of my friend a bangladesh health worker with UNESCO /UN complained to me that several yrs ago she had to have arm guard to protect her and her colleagues who were doiing women and infant health care srvices in conservative islamic outlying areas of bangladesh and pakistan..where in the villages, women are only good for child bearing and child rearing ..a baby machine , nothing more. The local mullahs and his goons threatened the health workers accusing them of corrupting the morals of the local women when all they did was to give them basic hygiene, maternal care, sex-education, infant feeding instructions etc. Many children had died from diarrhea due to poor understanding of preparation of infant formulae, since the instructions were written in the local languages, but 90% of the women were illiterate and bad preparation technic resulted in diarrhea. So in islamdom, half the society is dysfunctional and illiterate , like a bird with only one good wing how can that society fly well? You see ex-christian is a well fed , educated bourgeoise Swede ensconced in the comfort of his air conditioned office who have the creature comforts to sit and debate propaganda islam to beguile the world with his 'beautiful religion' nonsense...the harsh reality is that mullahIslam is an intransigent form of Theocratic Fascism which is misogynist to its rotten core ...kapiiisch !!!

I recommend that all of you go read this shocker about how islam treats women and sex in general...why devout muslims consider masturbation a sin that will send you to hell, and you thought the catholics were bad...maybe all that pent up frustration is good for Jihad, better to play with yourself and go blind that to use that pen up energy to stab shoot and blow up people...don't you folks agree ha ha ha.

Kim Sook-Im
ex-christian's favorite Ayahto-lass


o.k. sorry, entschuldigung bitte!!!

I forgot to enclude the link about islam and women and SEX:

here is the link:


http://www.islamreview.com/articles/sexinislam.shtml

This article is not for the prudish, so do be prepared for very frank language in the article. It will be a shocker to you folks!!!

Kim Sook-Im


Kim,

Gotta admire your gusto.

Btw, how many languages can you speak?


Ich bin vielspraechig und kann auch ein bisschen Scwedisch, Jag tallar Svenska ochsa men inte mycket god :( . Jag forstar Danska och Norska ochsa : )

and yes Dear Ex-christian it's ok. to debate with me a mere little korean country girl..i do speak and read arabic...ana atkallam wa aqra wa aktub al lughal-arabiyah-ul fushaa aidhan fa hadha ana ghair moonafiq ! LOL

Gunnar, you are swedish n'est-ce-pas?

Kim Sook-Im
ex-christian's favorite korean country girl


>> Gunnar, you are swedish

Ouch! Hey now you can criticise me, but don't you dare INSULT me. Sure, go ahead hide behind the screen. I have a viking sleeper cell in Korea, just for cases like this. :)

I'm Norwegian, born in Trondheim.

Ahh, more support (from Fallujah) for the view that Islam is a peaceful religion, and that muslims treat women like queens:

[A] poster in the ruins of the souk bears testament to the strict brand of Sunni Islam imposed by the council, fronted by hardline cleric Abdullah Junabi. The decree warns all women that they must cover up from head to toe outdoors, or face execution by the armed militants who controlled the streets.

Two female bodies found yesterday suggest such threats were far from idle. An Arab woman, in a violet nightdress, lay in a post-mortem embrace with a male corpse in the middle of the street. Both bodies had died from bullets to the head.


hi Gunnar,

Sorry, jeg ikke snakker norsk :) ...please don't behead me, or i will report you to ODIN and send you to valhalla :)))

yes one of the unexpected consequence of the coalition liberation of iraq was to foster a return of the draconian talibaan version of islam, whenever islam becomes militant they oppress women...so if you see the man starting to grow a beard and the women beginning to wear the chador and burqa watch out, that means the evil islamofascist virus is spreading....do you have a website or video clip showing the atrocities against the women in iraq ?

Mangga Takk,

Kim Sook-Im
totally unveiled korean country girl LOL


Ex-C:

I already explained to you that http://www.answering-christianity.com was established as a response to answering islam hate site, please scroll up.

Yes, and...? You don't find their claims about Christianity and Judaism to be hatemongering? They conclude, in a very roundabout way, that the Bible condones having sex with three-year-old girls. That's a more wild claim than anything I've seen on Answering Islam.

The "my religion is better than your religion" part is annoying to no end, but I don't find Answering Christianity to be without value. Their pro-terrorism/anti-terrorism argument struck me as quite good, and something that everybody - not just the Muslim world - should take into consideration: reform from within, like we talked about earlier. Instead of escalating the violence, people must realize that governments will play on fear and hatred of "The Other" to increase their power and serve their poltical ends.

As to your comment about Satan, here is my answer:

*Qu'ranic ramblings snipped*

More copy & paste. You can't kick your programming, can you? ;-)


>> please don't behead me, or i will report you to ODIN and send you to valhalla

LOL, I don't think Odin would rule in your favor.

>> yes one of the unexpected consequence of the coalition liberation of iraq was to foster a return of the draconian talibaan version of islam,

you misunderstand, this was what it was like in Fallujah before the liberation.

scroll down a bit to FALLUJANS WELCOME LIBERATION

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=15988

Check out the picture of the soldier with the grateful kids, er, I mean evil occupier and the hostile population.


Thanks for the Koran verses, Ex-C. I guess that Islam states that women and men are equal in some cases, but I did go looking for Koran verses that prove my point. Here's what I found:


Ibid., 1 Hadith No. 301:
"Allah's Apostle once said to a group of women : 'I have not seen any one more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious, sensible man could be led astray by some of you.' The women asked: 'O Allah's Apostle, what is deficient in our intelligence and religion?' He said: 'Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?' They replied in the affirmative. He said: 'This is the deficiency of your intelligence' ... 'Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?' The women replied in the affirmative. He said: 'This is the deficiency in your religion.'"

Hadith No. 70:
"Had I ordered anybody to prostrate before any one, I would have ordered women to prostrate before their husbands on account of men's rights over the women ordained by Allah."[47]

Hadith No. 6600
"Amongst the inmates of Paradise the women would form the minority."

(I can find more quotes, but I didn't want to turn this into a quote spam post)


I guess like all religious texts, the Koran contradicts itself on many occasions. I think when that happenes, it's up to the religion's followers to decide what concepts to follow and which ones not to.

Anyways, thanks for talking with me, Ex-C. It's rare that I get to hold a conversation with a Muslim.


Hi Amy:

What you quoted above is NOT Quran, it is hadith ( there is big difference between the two ).


''Anyways, thanks for talking with me, Ex-C. It's rare that I get to hold a conversation with a Muslim.''

You are very welcome any time.


I live in Singapore which make up of many races mainly Chinese, Malay and Indian. Despite our different cultures, languages, customs and yes, religion, we are able to live hormoniously Together. We interact with each other in English (main language).

Majority of the Malay are Muslims. But the religion do not stop us here to interact and lively happily with other non-Muslims.

In Singapore, we celebrate Chinese New Year, Hari Raya Puasa (the celebration after a month of fasting in Ramadhan), Deepavali and Christmas. Right this moment, the Muslims here are celebrating Hari Raya and the non-Muslims here are not left out. In fact they celebrate this joyous ocassion together, visiting their Muslim friends and relatives' houses and tasting the varieties of food.

Walk around the college campus or anywhere here in Singapore, you will see a group of different races (with different faith) interacting with each other merrily. In fact, back in my school days, we celebrate all the main celebration by visitng to each other houses despite being Muslim, Budists, Hindu, Christian etc.

My point is, please do not judge a person just because he/she is Muslim. And certainly, please do not have the conception that Islam is bad and that ALL Muslims are blood suckers and violent creatures. The truth is Islam is a peaceful religion. And of any religion and faith, Islam do not encourage or even promote violents.

As for the terrorists, they are the extremists that have wrongly mis-used and tainted Islam. Their actions are not teaching of Islam. And they definitely do NOT represent Islam or the general Muslims around the world. Should there be a mistake somewhere, it will be these humans who have abused Islam and have given a wrong conception to other non-Muslims.


Hey Ex-C, aren't the Hadiths part of the Koran? Or are they considered separate by the Muslim majority?


Eda, Singapore

Thank you so much for your kind-hearted post, I certainly agree with you but sadly your great wise words will fall on deaf ears because most of the posters here are ' mindless Islamophobes'

Keep the good work, Allah bless you.


Amy G, USA

''Hey Ex-C, aren't the Hadiths part of the Koran? Or are they considered separate by the Muslim majority?''


Hi Amy, the hadith is not part of the Noble Quran.
The hadith is the sayings of prophet Muhammad (pbuh ) while the Noble Quran is the word of God revealed to prophet Muhammad through the angel Gabriel. they are different.

For Muslims all over the world, the Noble Quran is the most important and the most holy.
Most Muslims do recognize the hadiths but not all hadiths are authentic because the earliest hadiths were collected some 200 years after the death of prophet Muhammad (pbuh ).

That is why when you go to anti muslim hate sites, you find them always quoting ' fake ' hadiths while RARELY they refer you to the Noble Quran, they are exploiting the fact that you dont know the difference between the two, as I said, the Noble Quran is the basic and is the law in Islam.

You can read the English translation of the Noble Quran here:

http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/neindex.htm

Or if you dont have enough time, you can relax while LISTENING to this really very beautiful ARABIC-ENGLISH recitation of the Noble Quran, it is from The Islamic Education Center in Houston-Texas:

http://www.iec-houston.org/QuranAudio.shtml


apa kabar saudari edna di singapura?
hi eda from singapore, how are you?
i want to comment that islam was introduced to s.e. asia by sufi mystiques. The type of islam there has been tolerant and moderate being influenced by malay culture and also the pluralistic society. But the wahabist/salafist ,courtesy of saudi arabia has been tryng to destabilize the region and striving to create a s.e. asina caliphate of sort. Singaporeans were shocked a few yrs ago to find out that ordinary and unassuming members of the local islamic community had tried to bomb the US embassy and other foreign embassies too.Although individual muslims may be good people this does not excuse the fact that islam's basic tenet is world hegemony and thro violence if necessary. Please read the following links for a shocker:

http://www.singapore-window.org/sw03/030111au.htm

and also:

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:Dvvm6YpTsEQJ:www.csis.org/pacfor/issues%255Cv03n01_pdf.pdf+ISLAMIST+THREAT+IN+SINGAPORE&hl=en

thank you
terima kasih
謝謝你。
tedanhi kamseh hamneeda

Kim Sook-Im
p.s. my singaporean friend just gave me some mee goreng, laksa and gulai ayam !!! Great food :)))


salaam alaykum

Hi ex christian,

i think it is unfair to insult and disparage everyone that offers criticism/constructive criticism as 'mindless islamophobes'...but i am not surprised about your mindset, which further confirms the level of indoctrination and cultic immersion you are experiencing. Whether you deny it or not, the basic tenet of islam is still world hegemony. Regarding "islamophobia" please read this link:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/sina40622.htm

members of this blog pleae read this link-- it is of utmost importance if you wish to save the world from a holocaust.

Kim Sook-Im


Hi ex christian, i forgot to ask you:

er du fran Turkey. vill du tala turkisk ocksa. Turks aer muslims .

I know you wrote swedish, but maybe you are an expatriate turkish muslim attempting to convert innocent unbelievers like me and amy and eda ?

ex-hristiyan yapmak sen konusmak Tuerk? adl tuerk insanlar konusmak isveclida!

I currently live in the US but i know of several friends from islamic country that have earned their livelihood here in the infidel country and yet it always bother me when they speak so badly of the USA , the very country that gave them food and shelter, whereas they could never gain citizenship in saudi arabia. In fact a good friend of mine from pakistan told of a horror story of how his sister was badly abused as a domestic servant by a saudi family...so much for islamic kindness LOL.

Kim Sook-Im


Moshe Yitzhak Na’eh, 25, father of five, dies of his wounds after being shot in the head early Thursday in a Jewish part of Antwerp near the Muslim quarter. A British subject who lived in Belgium, Na’eh managed local synagogue and yeshiva


>> http://www.singapore-window.org/sw03/030111au.htm

Regarding on the issue on the link given above, it is not as shocker as what Kim has proclaimed. In fact, most S'porans (including the non-Muslims) were awared of this.. and even during the bad times where the integrity of Islam is heavily questioned.

Luckily for us Singaporeans, the Government have encourage from the early days to instil the awareness, understanding and respect among other races difference and faith. This is basically to put our differences aside and to live harmoniously together as a nation.

Singapore had been through a few crises in the last few years, such as the 911 incident, recession, culminating in the Sars crisis which bonded individuals, families and communities from all races, languages and religions. The series encapsulate the emotions and experiences of people who have survived these crises. It was conceived as a national activity to get people from all walks of life involved in the making of the country's first national tapestry. Stitch by stitch, patch by patch, each is a symbol of love and a gift of blessing to the country.

In fact, during the Sars crisis, there was no segregation among the races or whether they are Muslim or not. Every Singaporean played apart in fighting the Sars especially the healthcare fighters. Everyone joined hands and shared their condolence and sympathy over the losses of life especially to the 2 healthcare people (one of which is a Muslim) who have dedicated their life for the nation.


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First of all, to Gunnar- I find your Sweden-Norway rivalry amusing. Don't forget my friend, us Swedes and Norwegians are brothers by blood. I must however, admit my disgust at Sweden for not helping our norwegian brothers in WWII.

Kim Sook - Jag ar ganska imponerad att du kan prata och forsta sa manga olika och annorlunda spraker.

I am a Swede living in Canada, and have lived here for many years. I do not agree with the leftist, socialist path that europe is on (although eastern Canada is quickly following suit, thank god I live in the west).

An arab muslim family that had dual citizenship in Canada and saudi arabia had two sons. They both left Canada to go to Afghanistan to fight for al-quaeda, against American and Canadian armed forces. One of the sons was injured by pakistani troops. The mother then flew the son back to Canada TO GET FREE HEALTH CARE!!!!.

Canada is following suit of europe, in that they are so concerned with being politically correct that they do not see the inherent danger in the complacency of the government. These fanatical islamists see this and take advantage of it.

Last summer I was in Sweden. We were in line to get into a night club. two arabs starting cutting in front of everyone to get into the club. not a single swede said anything. My brother, my friend and I told the to get to the back of the #$#@ing line. They did. My point here is not to seem macho, but they prey on the complacency of native europeans.

When will Europe wake up? when will they realize that these people are a BURDEN on european society? The dutch are taking action into their own hands. These people (muslim immigrants) must realize that they are guests in europe, and that europe is NOT there to cater to them, although it seems that way, judging by many europeans actions (or inaction to situations). How many more native europeans citizens have to be murdered in cold blood for speaking their minds before you wake up from your deep slumber?

In private, many muslim immigrants in Canada and Europe deplore the white race. they say we are infidels. Their "holy book" also speaks of violent uprisings.

Muslims hide behind their "islam is peaceful, and terrorists are not true muslims" slogan all the time. I personally believe that islam is a dirty, corrupt, obsolete and archaic religion that is festering in western countries, and will soon in the very near future lead to a global conflict of west vs. islam.

The damage has been done. we have been complacent too long and now it has come back to haunt europe. The americans are the only ones with enough balls to take action. Too bad that it is so hard to bceome an american, for I would surely like to leave Canada, and move south to a more capitalistic and opportunistic country.

By the way, my girlfriend is from sweden , she moved here to be with me a little less than a year ago. She openly speaks of the double standards that exist in europe concerning immigrants. The immigrants have more rights than the native Swedes, because the government does not want to offend their newly acquired citizens. Meanwhile, the average native swede works their balls off, whilst paying enormous taxes to house and support these many immigrants who segregate themselves and many of whom do not work.

Many people say that the root of all evil is money. That comment holds some merit, but the real root of all evil is religion. It has caused countless deaths throughout history. The most militant of these is Islam. I have spent considerable time on Al-jazeera.com, and the posts these muslims make are full of hatred. Any time i voice my mind, i am called a zionist, jew lover, racist, infidel etc.

Many muslims condone the killing of Van gogh, as they say he shouldn't have said those things. When a native Dutch Citizen is murdered by an immigrant for speaking his mind, there is something severely wrong with the situation.

What would happen to me if i was a christian, and moved to an islamic country, and murdered a native of that country for speaking out against christianity? there would be utter chaos.

When will the western world stand up to this hostile, silent take over of europe by muslim immigrants?

I agree with live and let live, but there comes a time when diplomacy ends and you have to take a stand to protect your very existence. How many more van goghs must there be before europe realizes this?


Rob Johansson

'' These people (muslim immigrants) must realize that they are guests in europe''


No, we are not GUESTS, in fact, you are an immigrant yourself, only 20% of Swedes can PROVE their grandparents were born in Sweden !

I am European, White and PROUD MUSLIM, this is my land and Islam is my religion, if you dont like it, you can go to hell, there is no muslims there :))


I am European, White and PROUD MUSLIM, this is my land and Islam is my religion, if you dont like it, you can go to hell, there is no muslims there :))

You're right. There are no Muslims in heaven, either. They rot in the ground, like anybody else. Makes their delusions all the more sad.


Actually I can prove my granparents were born in sweden, as with my great grand parents, their parents and so on.

Your comments about going to hell, and that there are no muslims there simply prove my theories.

It is too bad that your are so feeble minded as to not see the intolerance in your post. This is what islam creates, intolerance, oppression, hatred.

My anti-muslim views on europe also are intolerant. However, in my defense they are reactionary, in that it is a reaction to the situation that has been created by the influx of muslim immigrants in europe.

I believe that we are all equal, but when an immigrant kills a native dutch citizen for his beliefs, then it is time to take a stand, and it is too bad that europe is being taken hostage by islam.

I can accept your opinion, it is too bad islam has made you intolerant to the point where you cannot accept mine.


Rob Johansson

''Actually I can prove my granparents were born in sweden, as with my great grand parents, their parents and so on.''

so you admit then that 80% of Swedes are immigrants themselves !! Thank you.


''Your comments about going to hell, and that there are no muslims there simply prove my theories.
It is too bad that your are so feeble minded as to not see the intolerance in your post. This is what islam creates, intolerance, oppression, hatred. ''


My ass ! your first post was filled with hate and intolerance against muslims, now you are talking about oppression and haterd !! are you high on some illegal grass?


''My anti-muslim views on europe also are intolerant. However, in my defense they are reactionary, in that it is a reaction to the situation that has been created by the influx of muslim immigrants in europe.''

Since when Hatred is reactionary ??

Of course, you dont tell us about the deep rooted racism within the swedish society, you dont talk about those immigrants in Sweden who need to change their names to get an interview ( not job yet ), you dont talk about the ghettos that YOU created !

You dont talk about great Muslim Swedes like Zlatan Ibrahimovic who made Sweden famous in the international football !

You dont talk about how muslim immigrants are working in restaurants as dish washers depiste having post graduate degrees ( I have been to Sweden, it SUCKS when it comes to Immigrants ):

''Så fort arbetsgivaren ser ett invandrarnamn hamnar jobbansökan längst ner i lådan. Trots att det handlar om ungdomar som är födda i Sverige, har gått i svensk skola sedan första klass.
– Och frågan är vem som diskriminerar mest – de privata företagen eller stat och kommun.''

http://www.hd.se/ArticlePages/200411/08/20041108105423_-Alla_anvandare-851/20041108105423_-Alla_anvandare-851.dbp.shtml


Statistik

Här presenteras ett urval av statiska uppgifter om Sverige inom området rasism och diskriminering. Under figurerna framgår från vilka källor statistiken är hämtad.

Rasismen i länen

Sammanställning av länsvisa statistiska uppgifter angående rasism och etnisk diskriminering, 2002, José Alberto Diaz, Integrationsverkets skriftserie 1.
1. Anmälningar till Diskrimineringsombudsmannen

Tabellen nedan visar antal anmälningar till Diskrimineringsombudsmannen under åren 1999, 2000 och 2001. Som framgår av tabellen har det inträffat en markant ökning av anmälningar kopplade till arbetslivet.

Anmälningar arbetslivet
1999
2000
2001

Arbete
183
163
269

Anmälningar övriga samhälle

Arbetsmarknad
0
22
27

Bostad
21
30
37

Försäkring
0
16
18

Kredit
7
18
10

Restaurang
9
14
4

Rättsväsende
39
41
38

Socialtjänst
30
20
21

Sjukvård
6
8
8

Utbildning
25
24
34

Övrig diskriminering
61
41
24

Övriga varor och tjänster
47
17
28

Källa: Diskrimineringsombudsmannen (DO)

2. Brott med rasistiska/främlingsfientliga motiv

I tabellen nedan redovisas uppgifter inhämtade från Säkerhetspolisens rapport "Brottslighet kopplad till rikets inre säkerhet 2000". Tabellen visar antal brott med främlingsfientliga/rasistiska inslag som drabbat personer med annan etnisk bakgrund än majoritets befolkning under 2000.

Brottslighet med rasistiska/ främlingsfientliga motiv

Majoritet mot minoritet

Olaga hot
518

Ofredande
462

Misshandel
368

Förtal/förolämpning
337

Hets mot folkgrupp
354

Skadegörelse
165

Olaga diskriminering
158

Klotter
76

Grov misshandel
27

Brottskod saknas
21

Olaga intrång
15

Hot eller förgripelse mot tj.man
8

Våld mot tjänsteman
9

Rån mot privatperson
5

Tjänstefel m.m.
7

Stöld
6

Övriga brott
23

Totalt
2572

Källa: Säkerhetspolisen: Brottslighet kopplad till rikets säkerhet 2000.

http://www.sverigemotrasism.nu/templates/svWide____2709.asp


And you still have the gut to talk about Muslim intolerance !!


''I believe that we are all equal, but when an immigrant kills a native dutch citizen for his beliefs, then it is time to take a stand, and it is too bad that europe is being taken hostage by islam.''

But the killer was NOT an immigrant, he was DUTCH, he was born in Holland.

You see, it is you ( the racist scumbags ) who refuse to accept immigrants, you still call them IMMIGRANTS despite the fact that the majority were born here in Europe and their parents are European citizens!!

''
I can accept your opinion, it is too bad islam has made you intolerant to the point where you cannot accept mine.''

No , I dont accept yours because it is posionous opinion and smells like the NAZIS. it is based on hatred and racism, but let me make it very clear to you, we are here to STAY and if you dont like it, I told you already where to go.

We can all live together in peace but NOT on your terms neither on our terms, we can all find a compromise, a middle way, apart from that, any attempt to mess with muslims or their lives will be resisted and defeated ( the tragedy of Al Andalus will never ever be repeated again ).


Ex-christian, yes the killer of van gogh had dual citizen ship of both morroco and holland. And since he was born in holland, how is it that he has morrocan citizenship? simple, His parents are morrocan, and since he was able to get morrocan citizenship, he is still an immigrant.

I do not hold nazi beliefs, and your post is typical of why europeans are afraid to speak up against what is going on, as soon as they do, they are labelled as nazis.

You are quick to call me racist, but in fact you know absolutely nothing about me. Before these terrorist attacks occurred, i began to wonder about islam and the goings on of the world.

From what I have seen, I have become the way I am. I have noticed that muslims hold a number of double standards. They want to be tolerated and accepted where ever they go (which is understandable). But they are VERY intolerant of non-believers, especially jews.

They come to countries, build mosques etc, and are free to dress and do what they want. Now let's take super model Heidi Klum, and send her to Iran or Saudi Arabia, and let her walk down the streets in a bikini. You tell me what would happen. Or how about i go to saudi arabia or tehran chechnya, or any muslim area and build a giant synagogue there. Again, you tell me the results.

And i already know your answer, it will be some rediculous jargon about "thats why muslims come to western countries, to be rid of the oppression". but what you fail to see my friend, is that the native dutch population is being oppressed by fanatical muslims.

First, muslims say that Theocratic states like iran and saudia arabia are controlled by power hungry nuts cases who oppress the people and twist islam to suit their needs.

But then when a western country starts building a substantial muslim population (such as holland) these fanatical traits start emerging there as well, same with the phillipines, chechyna, indonesia, small muslim uprisings in china ad inf. Now please tell me what is the common theme with all these terrorist attacks and uprisings? It can't be race, because there are people of all ethinicities involved, arabs, asians, caucasians, persian, turks, afghans. so what could it be? the answer is ISLAM.

It is the only common link. So what is it that causes these people to become fanatical?

I believe it is the core of islam, and its militant passages of the koran. Islam is a religion of the third world and the oppressed. Why are africa and the middle east mostly muslim? and why are they still a thousand years behind the west? the religion effectively holds them down

Mohammed knew that he could control people with fear, and the easiest way to do this was instill the fear of god in them. He simply manipulated the situation to control people. He was nothing short of a creton and a con artist.

Surely many of you think that I am a hypocrite, being as I am an immigrant to Canada. I have nothing against immigrants who are like myself. I do not hate the country in which i live. I do not segregate myself. I do not live on the social welfare systems of my host country. And finally, I do not attend religious meetings that purposefully propagate hatred towards and death to the people which I live amongst.

Ex-christian, I am glad that you are happy as a muslim, it does not make a difference to me.

But don't be so quick to call some one a racist when he or she only says what many europeans are thinking, but are to politically correct to say.


Rob:

I do not hold nazi beliefs, and your post is typical of why europeans are afraid to speak up against what is going on, as soon as they do, they are labelled as nazis.

You are quick to call me racist, but in fact you know absolutely nothing about me. Before these terrorist attacks occurred, i began to wonder about islam and the goings on of the world.

I'm glad to see that people are starting to refuse to let the cries of "racist" or "Nazi" shake them. It's especially nice to hear from a Swede. Many of my Swedish friends hesitatingly admit they don't like what's going on with immigration, but they tell me a lot of people in Sweden are afraid to say it openly because they'll be branded a racist. It's a bad day when "tolerance" forces you into national and racial suicide.

Ex-C:

To brand somebody as a racist because they have misgivings about or even outright hate Islam is weak. Islam is a belief system, not a race.

As far as being a Nazi, you are aware that the Muslims were allied with the Nazis? In fact, there is a lot of evidence that al-Husseini influenced Hitler into exterminating Jews rather than deporting them, as he didn't want them to come to Palestine. As Gunnar has pointed out, the PLO are a bunch of unreformed Nazis.


I would like to add a few things. First off, ex christian, I have no idea how by me saying that I can prove my swedish blood lines proves that i agree with your statement "so you admit then that 80% of Swedes are immigrants themselves !! Thank you."

Furthermore, religions are created by man, that is undisputable. That alone should prove their fallability.

When one looks at the nonsensical ramblings in the bible and the koran, it is clear as day that these are merely books written to add security to people's lives, who, in those ancient times, had no way explaining the natural phenomena that were occurring in their world.

I went to a catholic high school, and we had a religion class, and we learned about cults. The only difference to me between a religion and a cult is the amount of people that follow it.

What kind of religion tells you to starve yourself for a month? Islam

What kind of religion says you can't have sex till you're married? Christianity

What kind of religion tells you that you can't eat pork? Islam

What kind of religion tells you that if you do not accept the lord as your saviour, you will spend eternity in hell? Christianity

Do you not see the pattern of dictatorship through instilling fear of a vengeant god? People are controlled by this, and brainwashed, many since birth/

Christianity has advanced, or should i say adapted, so that people live in todays times without being overly religious, and can still be labelled as christians.

Now why is it that muslims are still a thousand years behind? praying 5 times a day? It is becuase there hasn't been a reform in islam. with this reform will come the death of extremism. Until then, terrorism will continue until finally there is a global conflict in which there will be mass destruction.

Do you not see that western people will become more intolerant as the attacks continue until we wage war on islam? Can you not fathom that if terrorists and extremists continue to hide amongst the muslim population, inevitably the entire muslim poplulatoin will be wiped out? this is the nature of mankind. All mankind, not whites or black or any ethinc group. all of us.


"( the tragedy of Al Andalus will never ever be repeated again )."

???

Once moslem land always moslem land ?


Rob Johansson

''It is the only common link. So what is it that causes these people to become fanatical? I believe it is the core of islam, and its militant passages of the koran.''

It seems you are totally ignorant of Islam and the Noble Quran, I bet you did not even read the Quran, until then, I wont go further with you in that regard but I might help you by giving you this to go through:

http://www.islamdenouncesterrorism.com


'' Islam is a religion of the third world and the oppressed. Why are africa and the middle east mostly muslim? and why are they still a thousand years behind the west? the religion effectively holds them down''

Your ignorance of Islamic history is scandalous! ever heard of AL-ANDALUS ?? ever heard of MUSLIM SPAIN ? well, go read about how Spain was before ISLAM and how it became after Islam and then come back here for more.

Here are some tips:

Muslim Spain and European Culture

http://www.xmission.com:8000/~dderhak/index/moors.htm

LEGADO ANDALUSI ( Spanish site with many languages )

http://www.legadoandalusi.es/legado_gb.html

Andalusia when it was

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/4482/andalus.html

Have a nice 'informative' weekend.


Rob Johansson

''I would like to add a few things. First off, ex christian, I have no idea how by me saying that I can prove my swedish blood lines proves that i agree with your statement''

You did not even attempt to disprove my statement which suggests you indeed accepted it.


''Furthermore, religions are created by man, that is undisputable. That alone should prove their fallability. ''

Nonesense, if religion is created by man, who created man then???


''What kind of religion tells you to starve yourself for a month? Islam''

This is again another example of why we muslims need to do more to educate ignorant people like you about our great faith, in Ramadan, we dont starve, we fast from sunrise to sunset to be able to control our instincts and FEEL the hunger of the needy.

Beside, fasting in ramadan has SO MANY medical benefits that was approved by doctors;

The Spiritual and Health Benefits of Ramadan Fasting

http://www.crescentlife.com/spirituality/spiritual_and_health_benefits_of_fasting.htm

The Benefits of Fasting

http://www.healthpromoting.com/Articles/articles/benefit.htm


''What kind of religion says you can't have sex till you're married? Christianity''

What's wrong with that ? why you insist on living like an animal ???


''What kind of religion tells you that you can't eat pork? Islam''

If you refer to dirty people as 'pigs', how come you are eating them ? :)


''Christianity has advanced, or should i say adapted, so that people live in todays times without being overly religious, and can still be labelled as christians.''


christianity did not advanced or adapted, christianity is DEAD:

Church may end up as sect, warns bishop
http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,2763,1174137,00.html


''Now why is it that muslims are still a thousand years behind? praying 5 times a day? It is becuase there hasn't been a reform in islam. ''

What kind of logic you have ? eating 3 times a day was the norm for thousands of years and still to this day, shall we stop it ?

Muslim are not behind, Muslims follow their religion more than any other group, we take our religion very seriously, we dont wish to live like animals ( sorry but this is how you guys live ) our lives are not centerd on our animalistic needs ( sex, food and material gains ), we view this life as vanity, short trip to the hereafter where the real eternal life.


''with this reform will come the death of extremism. Until then, terrorism will continue until finally there is a global conflict in which there will be mass destruction.''


I am amazed you did not mention the evil your western nations is commiting against muslims as the reason behind this ' terrorism' ! how about your own terrorism as a reason???


''Do you not see that western people will become more intolerant as the attacks continue until we wage war on islam? ''

The Attacks will continue until you stop your evil terrorist actions against muslims, it is just common sense.

We Muslims dont aspire to have war with anyone, specialy us European Muslims, our land is Europe and our religion is Islam but you should know that war on Islam will end in your totall destruction, YOU SHOULD BE WISE AND LEARN FROM HISTORY:

When Islam was born with few followers, it brought down the two most powerful empires at that time ( the Persian and the eastern Roman empire )and when Islam was weak in the 12th century, it crushed the crusaders and the mongols who invaded the muslim world, and when Islam was DEEP DOWN, it crushed the mighty colonial powers such as Britian and France in the first half of the 20th century.

You cant wage war on third of the world.

''Can you not fathom that if terrorists and extremists continue to hide amongst the muslim population, inevitably the entire muslim poplulatoin will be wiped out? ''


You see why I smell nazi rotten garbbage here ! are you inspiring for another holocaust ??


I know about Islamic Spain. You still haven't refuted any of my points about religion mentioned in my posts, you are just a copy and paste person.

All I have seen from you is jargon, and pastes from biased websites.

Can you not think for yourself? You are completely brainwashed by islam. are you mad that I called mohammed an idiot? Are you going to kill me? If so I will be in Sweden Summer 2005

By the way, I do have knowledge of the koran and the bible. I wouldn't even use the pages from either for toilet paper if i ran out.

You have never answered the reason extremism is rampant in islam. you just tell me how I don't know anything about Islam.

I am sorry my friend, but you have very limited debating skills and seem to be very feeble minded in that you cannot see past your own brainwashing.


Jeff, USA

''As far as being a Nazi, you are aware that the Muslims were allied with the Nazis? In fact, there is a lot of evidence that al-Husseini influenced Hitler into exterminating Jews rather than deporting them, as he didn't want them to come to Palestine. As Gunnar has pointed out, the PLO are a bunch of unreformed Nazis.''


what a bunch of zionist jewish lies !

It is funny seeing an American clown talking about muslim-nazi connection when his own country is ruled by a president whose family supported the nazis:

How Bush's grandfather helped Hitler's rise to power

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1312540,00.html

How The Bush Family Made Its Fortune From The Nazis

http://www.rense.com/general26/dutch.htm

Also, how about the MODERN JEWS voting for nazis and indeed cooperating with them against muslims ?

from the Israeli newspaper, Haaretz

The Jews who voted for Le Pen

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=160403&contrassID=2&subContrassID=15&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y


The jews and their clowns( like Gunnar ) always love to point the ' alliance ' between muslims and the leftists while they dont talk about the sinister alliance they the jews are making with the NEO NAZIS and the far right anti muslim paties in Europe !!


My points were that religion DICTATES to you. You still do not see it.

There you go with your nazi name calling again. Call me a NAZI all you want. I am not insinuating that another holocaust should happen, I am simply saying that it WILL happen if this escalates further, it is the nature of man.

We are animals, animals have sex. bottom line. I eat pork, I don't call people pigs. Pork is an animal, just like all other animals. The fact that you won't eat it, shows how you are OPRESSED by the very religion you cherish. You just don't see it. We can argue all day about this, the bottom line is that yes, i have become very intolerant of islam because I have seen what extremists do to people. And that there are many many times more extremists attacks by muslims than any other group. Call me racist. call me a Nazi. I don't care. Islams days of intimidating and subduing those who speak out are over. I will not be silenced. And do not for a second think that i am only saying this on the internet, i will say it to any muslim iin person as well. You stand up for what you believe in, as do I.

And your visions of grandeur do not intimidate me one bit. You feel confident that it will be the destruction of the west if a war happens. Are muslims world wide going to sail to north america to wage war?

If islam wages a truly GLobal war against infidels or non believers, it will truly be the death of islam.


Rob Johansson

''I am sorry my friend, but you have very limited debating skills and seem to be very feeble minded in that you cannot see past your own brainwashing.''


Everytime an Islamophobe is cornered, refuted and his 'lies' were exposed, he/she say the same above garbbage.

''The trouble about man is twofold. He cannot learn truths which are too complicated; he forgets truths which are too simple''
Rebecca West.



You can say what you will my friend.

Ex-C wrote: "what a bunch of zionist jewish lies!"

Everytime a brainwashed, not-free thinking muslim is cornered, refuted and his 'lies' were exposed, he/she say the same above horse shit.

(along with, of course, THE USA IS TO BLAME)


"Muslim are not behind, Muslims follow their religion more than any other group, we take our religion very seriously, we dont wish to live like animals ( sorry but this is how you guys live ) our lives are not centered on our animalistic needs ( sex, food and material gains ), we view this life as vanity, short trip to the hereafter where the real eternal life."

Bingo! this world is the trip to hell for all us non moslems or ( so Khomenei had a good point in killing us was doing us a favor liberating us from our worthless and sinful lives ) ? and the trip to heaven for the moslems, with 72 virgins as eternal sexual bliss, if you die as martyr taking your trip to heaven over the blood oceans of infidels.

I have seen the light I must become a moslem, you have convinced me utterly - plz I don´t wanna go to hell.

Now what´s best Sunni or Shia ?


Ex-C:

what a bunch of zionist jewish lies !

It is very true. Read about al-Husseini.

It is funny seeing an American clown

How very unbecoming of you. You racist. ;-)

Rules for posting

2. But: No personal attacks. Your opponents are wrong, but they're not stupid, and they're not evil - maybe elsewhere, but not on my website.


As a temporary immigrant to The Netherlands (Natuurlijk heb ik de taal soms geleerde, toen ik in De Mooie Nederlands lekker gewoonde.),I am back in the land of my birth, part of The New World, south of Canada. The Dutch have invited guests into their homeland who are starting to kill their hosts. This pisses off the normally even-tempered Hollanders, as it would the Swedes, Danes, Portugeuse, Brazilians, Congolese or Japanese. Those to whom you give freedom of thought -as a basic right of your democracy- and who then begin to destroy its meaning by slaughtering a free speech advocate (Theo Van Gogh, writer/film-maker/gadfly) in broad daylight, on the serene streets of beautiful Amsterdam- as schoolkids were being led to their classes by their parents and grandparents- such a murder deserves a serious reaction from his neighbors and friends. Burning mosques or writing slogans on muslim schools is silliness, and plays into the same infantile level of mind that the murderer of Van Gogh inhabits. The Magical Thinking Realm of all 'True Believers' (see the worthwhile book of the same title by Erich Hoffer). A better response would be to have a national forum on 'what it means to live in The Netherlands' (and, by extension, 'in Europe'): i.e.- a core belief in the U.N. Rights guaranteed to all people, at the very least. The same acceptance of mutual respect and responsibility and debate for all. But, once a person becomes violent by declaring their belief has been "insulted" ("attacked", etc.), then the perpetrators should either be imprisoned or deported (if any country would want such dangerous fanatics). The most vicious should be held in jail permanently and not allowed to restart their murderous plotting in another locale. This will mean a growing population of fundmentalist maniacs in prison proseltyzing from their cells. A bad idea, -so the law should be amended to remove their right to be heard once they are shut away. As part of the punishment- a vow of silence. Or, it will be a spawning ground for even more hardcore lunatics heeding their call for revenge. Meanwhile, the Europeans (who have the most dangerous members of the Islamic faith in their midst, and are relatively unarmed, compared the their neighbors and relatives in the U.S.A.) need to encourage reverse immigration (a BACK TO THE HOMELAND movement) so that the Muslim populace, now enjoying the freedoms of Europe without any of the responsibilities (tolerance, freedom of belief/thought/publication, peaceful debate, abiding by the written secular Law, etc.), can be stimulated to return to their countries of origin to help build them up to the glorious condition that all of the proponents of the Islamic theocratic State say is a natural outgrowth of being Muslim*. The Islamic religious State is incompatible with the post-'Age of Reason' secular state in the rest of the world. But, nothing either group says to the other has ANY meaning, because the secularist thinks that reason will convince, while the true believer "KNOWS better" (and 'hears' only 'blasphemy'). The clash of free minds against the Absolute Adherents to a 'holy' vision (Aztecs used to tears out living hearts to 'feed the Sun'; Cathaginian followers of Moloch rolled their live first born children into fiery cauldrons to appease their grim deity, ad nauseam, ad absurdum...) is 'eternal' and unavoidable. The Muslims must return to and live in their own nations, and try to resolve their own innner conflict (mostly clearly drawn by two medieval Islamic scholars arguing over the value of philosophy in their books "The Incoherence of the Philosophers" and the strong, pro-Philosophy reply "The Incoherence of the Incoherence"). Until the Muslim world can contain its own interior raging, its self-destructive inability to debate rationally, and failure to reign in the patriarchal excesses grafted onto the Muslim modern mind- both male and female- from its bronze age past, the "West" (and all Western-ized peoples, from China to Chile to Polynesia), will have nothing to gain from having them as guests in our stable societies. They are beginning to act like drunken soccer hooligans smashing up the shop of Mom and Pop stuggled all their lives to build up. No people will tolerate this nonsense, violence and trumpeting irrationality ruining their cultural values, or civic peace. I can only hope the women in Islam finally speak up, tell their men to grow up, and the world will be a happier place as the Muslims realize that: to admit our the world is a glorious treasure which we should be working to preserve and nurture, not a stolen hunk of meat that we should fight over like deranged hyenas. I wish more followers of Mohammed were Sufis, also, those rare members of the Muslim creed who seem to have a sense of humor about their own humble intellectual breadth, as humans. I hope my Dutch friends can regain their freedom without too much slander from the naive in neighboring lands who haven't had to face the fact that the intolerant, like the Nazis, use your freedoms to undermine them (Hilter was first voted in, after all, before he got the power to rewrite the laws). As a wise judge put it: "The Bill of Rights is not a suicide pact." Buddhism and Taoism hold many hints to a more tolerant planet. But they don't scream as loud. Om mane padme hum. EDO

*Why this wonderland on Earth keeps failing to evolve when Muslims form nations, and has always degenerated into Islamic sect warfare -starting from when the 'Sunnis' killed the Shia religious figures at the start of the battle for the inheritence of Mohammed's 'robe' (familiy dynastic versus patriarchal-tribal)- is fairly obvious. Human-all-too-human. Pretending to be divine.


ex-c

The idea of religion itself is absurd. Look at it this way. Judaism came along a long, long time ago. Moses started this garbage.

Then jesus came along and christianity was born. Christians immediately dismissed judaism, as Christianity was the newest thing, and surely it had to be the real thing. [sic]

Along comes another guy who realizes he can gain ALOT by instilling fear into people and making them believe he is the next prophet. This incestual, pedophillic con-artist was named Mohammed.

Then comes along another guy named Ahmed. The Qadianis believe in him. You dismiss them because he disagrees with mohammed. do you not see the absurdity of it all? Who is to say who is right? It's all BULL SHIT. yet thousands and thousands of people throughout history have been killed for it. lunacy.

I also thoroughly enjoy how you say americans are attacking "our" land in Iraq. so all of a sudden, you become a muslim, and you can claim the land? LOL (and I know how all muslims claim to be brothers, but you still have no right to that land)

My poor misguided friend, I would honestly like to see how long it would take before your white head was being sawed off if you were hanging around iraq.

Did you know that incest is commonly practiced among arab muslims in the Middle East? Did you know that Mohammed married a 9 year old girl? by the way, she was an orphaned jew. And the saying is that the offspring of a female jew, is a jew. So Mohammed's kids were jews. Man he must have heated them.

I know you will again respond with me being a nazi, racist, zionist, bigot, infidel, or whatever else you can conjur up. Maybe you could call me a helicopter, i have always wanted to be able to fly.

here is a post from a very well-read man from another forum that I frequent. Please read this, and tell me what you think Mr. Ex-C


Starjade says: I have said this before and will say it again. Islam has fallen and Islamic law forces Muslims to convert.

There is a law in the religion of Islam that says: If you know something that is not true then you must be unafraid and stand up and state it. the matter will then be discussed and whatever is found to be true will be accepted as being true and whatever is found to be false will be rejected as being false.

The Sura 4:82 of the Koran says:
Do they not consider the Koran with care for if it came from any other than Allah then surely they would have found much discrepancy therein.

There is a challenge that has been going on for about 1400 yrs for anyone Muslim or non-Muslim to take up this Challenge and find just one error in the Koran. If one error is found in the Koran then that is proof that the Koran did not come from God.

Tell me Muslims and do not shirk or lie.
Do these errors exist in the Koran. And I know that they do but I want you Muslims to face these facts and confirm that these errors do exist in the Koran. If these errors do exist in the Koran and be sure that they do. Then this is proof that the Koran did not come from God and this is also proof that Muhammad is a liar and a Fraud and certainly not a Prophet from God as he claimed.

The first concerns the adoption of Moses by Pharaoh's wife (in sura 28:9). This story contradicts the Biblical Exodus 2:10 version, which states that it was Pharaoh's daughter who adopted Moses. It is important to note here that had Pharaoh's wife adopted Moses, he would have consequently been adopted by Pharaoh himself, making him heir to the throne. This fact alone makes the subsequent story of Moses's capture and exile rather incredulous.

Moses

The first concerns the adoption of Moses by Pharaoh's wife (in sura 28:9). This story contradicts the Biblical Exodus 2:10 version, which states that it was Pharaoh's daughter who adopted Moses. It is important to note here that had Pharaoh's wife adopted Moses, he would have consequently been adopted by Pharaoh himself, making him heir to the throne. This fact alone makes the subsequent story of Moses's capture and exile rather incredulous.

Issa
The name for Jesus in the Qur'an is given as "Issa." Yet this is incorrect. Issa is the Arabic equivalent of Esau, the name for the twin brother of Jacob. The correct Arabic name for Jesus would be Yesuwa, similar to the Hebrew Yeshuwa, yet the supposedly "all-knowing" Qur'an has no mention of it.


King Solomon was taught the speech of birds (sura 27:16) and the speech of ants (sura 27:18-19). In his battles, he used birds extensively to drop clay bricks on Abrah's army (sura 105:3-4), and marched them in military parades (sura 27:17). He also used them to bring him messages of powerful queens (sura 27:20-27).

Note: According to the historical record, Abrah's army was not defeated by bricks dropped on their head. Rather, they withdrew their attack on Mecca after smallpox broke out among the troops (Guillame, Islam, pgs.21ff).

Sura 4:82 errors in the Koran.

In sura 17:101 we find 9 plagues (or signs), whereas in sura 7:133 only 5 are listed (note Ali's footnote no.1091 which adds the rod and leprous hand from verses 107 and 108, as well as the drought and short crops of verse 130 as plagues, to make up the nine).

In sura 17:103 we are told that Pharaoh was drowned with his army, yet in sura 10:90-92, upon admitting to the power of God, he is rescued as a sign to others.

Jinns & Shooting stars:

Meteors, and even stars are said to be missiles fired at eavesdropping Satans and jinn who seek to listen to the reading of the Qur'an in heaven, and then pass on what they hear to men in suras 37:6-10; 55:33-35; 67:5; & 72:6-9.

How are we to understand these suras? Can we believe indeed that Allah throws meteors, which are made up of carbon dioxide or iron-nickel, at non- material devils who steal a hearing at the heavenly council? And how do we explain the fact that many of earths meteors come in showers which consequently travel in parallel paths. Are we to thus understand that these parallel paths imply that the devils are all lined up in rows at the same moment?

Muhammad claimed that he fulfilled the Prophecies of Isaiah and yet it is not explained why he did not satisfy this main Prophecy of Isaiah.

The Phenomena of Thunder and Lightning
It is common knowledge, as scientists teach, that thunder is a sound caused by the impact between electrical charges found in the clouds. Yet Muhammad, the prophet of Muslims, has a different opinion in this matter. He claims that the thunder and the lightning are two of God’s angels—exactly like Gabriel!

In the Qur’an there is a chapter under the title of "Thunder" in which it is recorded that the thunder praises God. We might think that it does not mean that literally because thunder is not a living being—although, spiritually speaking, all of nature glorifies God. The expounders of the Qur’an and its chief scholars, however, insist that Muhammad said that the thunder is an angel exactly like the angel Gabriel. In his commentary (p. 329), the Baydawi comments on verse 13 of chapter of the Thunder,

"Ibn ’Abbas asked the apostle of God about the thunder. He told him, ‘It is an angel who is in charge of the cloud, who (carries) with him swindles of fire by which he drives the clouds. In the commentary of the Jalalan (p. 206), we read about this verse: "The thunder is an angel in charge of the clouds to drive them."

Not only ibn ’Abbas asked Muhammad about the essence of the thunder, but the Jews did too. In the book, "al-Itqan" by Suyuti (part 4, p. 230), we read the following dialogue: "On the authority of Ibn ’Abbas, he said the Jews came to the prophet (peace be upon him) and said, ‘Tell us about the thunder. What is it?’ He told them:

‘It is one of God’s angels in charge of the clouds. He carries in his hand a swindle of fire by which he pricks the clouds to drive them to where God has ordered them.’ They said to him, ‘What is this sound that we hear?’ He said: ‘(It is) his voice (The angel’s voice)."’

The Law of Islam that I have invoked says if those errors do exist in the Koran then the Koran must be rejected and so must all the words of Mad Muhammad.

According to the Old Testament law of Deuteronomy Ch 19 v 15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: At the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established. This is a witness law that is designed to determine matters of the truth especially about statements that could be deemed as being blasphemous or sinful. It is not a matter for your own personal opinion; even if nobody wanted to believe the evidence that is presented. If that law is fulfilled, then legally it is binding and should stand good according to religious law.

Now then let me see the evidence you Muslims must have that this Angel Gabriel has appeared to mad Muhammad in his Cave. What about those witnesses to when Mad Muhammad claimed that this Angel Gabriel had appeared to him on the Mountainside. You know the Mountain that Muhammad had climbed because he knew he had gone mad and had intended to Kill himself. Isnt it a fact that no such witnesses actually exist. It is all just the claims of Muhammad who was alone each time. And the fact is that the follow Islam of Die law is the only reason this Bulldump story ever actually took off after all we have already seen how deceptive Muslims can be. Well then as there are no witnesses then according to Old Testament law of Deuteronomy Ch 19 v 15 Muhammad has been proven by religious law to be a Fraud. His word must be rejected and the Koran must be rejected and all Muslims must now convert from islam. Islamic law says that this must be so.

I challenge islam. Let an Imam comeonline and give an account as to why Islam is making Blasphemous claims that the Koran itself says are not true. If you meet a Muslim then quote the law I have mentioned above. then Sura 4:82 him. You will find this will tame Islam and its followers will be too embarrissed to continue to worship in the religion of Islam. Islam has fallen and it is in no position to recover. All that is needed is for the word to be spread amongst their congregations.


Rob J.,

You should know what to argue with the Irrational is absurd. NOTHING you "prove" about the fallibility of the Koran [Q'uran?]- even using its own words- MEANS ANYTHING to a 'believer'. Salman Rushdie pointed out that Mohammed himself censored the Koran ["Q'oorun?] by deleting the so-called "Satanic Verses" (which first allowed the idols at Mecca to be retained as 'lesser gods', then decided, LATER, to expel these tribal deities as 'confusing' -and Mohammed then did a rewrite the Koran [Q'arun?]. These verses were supposedly inspired by the 'Shaitan' (Satan?) as a test of Mohammed's wits (half?).
STOP trying to reason with the unreasonable. They don't argue from anything but their desire for a global despotism wherein they are little tin gods -sanctified in all forms of inhumanity aimed at those they decree as 'infidels' (thinking people?). All Bibles are Rorschach tests for the human mind. But the hard work of learning a basic skill of thought like Epistemology ("How DO we know what we know? How CAN we know anything?) is more vital. We need to be able NOT to argue with the Islamic Mind, but to show that it is dancing on air. Philosophically. Logically. Psychologically. And leads to the same monstrous tyranny as every previous Absolutist madness, from the pharoahs to Chairman Mao. We are creatures who can only know MAYBE. When anyone declares that they can know CERTAINTY, they are stating their arrogant schism with the sensible, secular, scientifically-based and humbly reasonable world. And the only reply to them is: come back when you can behave decently. It's going to take centuries. But, as the philosopher A. N. Whitehead nicely put it: "My one hope is the knowledge of the inherent instability of evil." EDO


Amazing! I was just telling a friend of mine regarding the van Gogh murder and the ensuing violence that nothing on that level happened in the USA after 9/11...yet the world keeps insisting it's America who is intollerant and evil. When will the world realize anti-American propaganda is nothing but a ruse used by the Marxists in order to garner power for themselves? And europeans call Americans religious! Nothing is more religious than the blind following of Karl Marx!


hi rob johannson, tack..men jag inte tallar svenska mycket god....ich kann besser Deutsch, ungluekliherweise habe ich nicht oft die Gelegenheit mich mit jemandem auf Deutsch zu unterhalten LOL.
o.k ex christian...you should really tell the truth:

ex Kristen , du er inte talande sanningen. Har du någonsin besöka saudi Arabien och annan muslim land. Den araber muslims diskriminera emot annan muslims , för exempel , pakistansk , bangladeshi , och indisk muslims samt annan utländsk arbetaren. du borde klaga högt emot sådan skiljande!!! Muslims discriminate against other muslims from other countries, the rich arabs beat up the poor bangladeshi muslims all the time. One of my bangladeshi friend was abused badly as a guest worker in saudi arabia...so much for practise of equality and what not in the beautiful religion of the islamisks LOL.


hello again,

i should also say to ex-christian the following:

الإسلام ديانة خطيرة جدًّا . عندما يقرأ المسلمون القرآن بجدّ و يصدّقون كلّ كلمة في الكتاب, يصبحون الإرهابيّين و المجاهدين ببطء !!! ( o.k. christian i just said in arabic, that the quran is a very dangerous book and that when muslims read the quran diligently and start believing seriously every word in the book, they slowly become terrorists and mujahideens...this is a proven fact, the more pious the muslim , the more likely he will commit violence and murder ..that book is a manual of terrorism ....o.k. ex-christian if you cannot read the arabic, than you are a bad muslim and will not go to jannah/firdaus/paradise LOL...

한국의 아름다운 나라에서 친구 김 너의좋은 Kim Sook-Im

Your favorite little korean girl - not wearing a burqa :)))


Hey Kim!

LOL, love your lack of ambiguity.

I started off with this theory as well, but backed off from it, not because I think it's definitely wrong, but because I personally couldn't back it up, not being an Islamic scholar. However, FrontPageMag.com is highlighting a conference with 3 Islamic scholars, and one of them basically says that Islam should be confined to Arabia.

My point is that whether it's a religion of peace or not is somewhat irrelevant. The problem is the radical violent fascist folks, regardless of what gimmick was used to convince them that violence is the answer. By crushing these elements, we're teaching a theological lesson to the currently non-violent ones.

If allah is real and desires that his followers kill the infidels sooner rather than later, then we won't be able to destroy them. By definition, no one can defeat God?

However, if we are able to defeat the terror fascists, then it follows that either allah is not real, or is he is not God (perhaps Tash), or that he doesn't want killing in his name.


The world is finally seeing what Muslims really are. They are nothing but evil people who leave their own repressive governments to create mayhem in their "adopted" country. Muslims firmly believe they have a "right" to attack any country in which they reside. Hence, phillipeans, Sudan, India, Russia, Netherlands and on the list goes.
Muslims don't know or want peace. That's a fact! When they are not fighting non-muslims, then they are fighting with each other. Violence is all they know.
I hope the world realizes this and takes a stand against Muslims. Send them back to the middle east sand pits to rot.


>> I hope the world realizes this and takes a stand against Muslims. Send them back to the middle east sand pits to rot.

That won't work, since we're going to transform the middle east. Years from now, I plan on going on a vacation, visiting safe and calm Israel, visit the historic sites in Syria, take a trip down to the cradle of civilization, stay in the Garden of Eden Hotel, travel through modern Persia, and see the new Afghanistan.

Don't let the current trouble fool you. Post war Germany had years of insurgent fighting.

http://www.americandaily.com/article/5322


"Muslim are not behind, Muslims follow their religion more than any other group, we take our religion very seriously, we dont wish to live like animals"

I was reading some earlier quotes and this one from ex-christian caught my eye.
"Muslims don't wish to live like animals". NO..they only treat their women this way!
Hey, ex-christian...explain to us why you muslims leave the Middle East hell hole, to live in a place where you don't respect the laws, women, rights, etc.
tell us how muslims around the world believe that once they get a majority of people in a location, they can fight to have "islamic laws" in place.
The reason is because Muslims want to turn the world into one huge "Islamic" world. why else would muslims move from the Middle East to live in a NON-MUSLIM country? They know darn well they have NO intention of adhering to the laws of another country. They are all biding their time.

Words of wisdom: DON'T EVER TRUST MUSLIMS.


hi ,
here is an important o a vry importnat
book concerning Islam

http://www.muslim-refusenik.com/thebook.html

this book is by irshad manji


Hi Edo van Ede, Gunnar, Johansson and others,

a lot of the rites and rituals of the modern sunni and shiah sects are derived from old testamental judeo christianity...like the relgion of the pharasees of old, with all their noxious rites and rituals ex. ostentatious public prayer, bowing scraping etc. etc.For christians remember Jesus warned against the pharasees! In fact he said for a good christian to go into the closet and pray secretly to god, for the Father who hears
in secret will reward you... do not be like the pharasees who make much fuss about their prayers, standing in street corners ( muslims pray in street corners en masse) for men to see, for them shall men be their recompense !!!

Also the circumambulation of the ka'aba is a pagan rite. Ancient arabia was a lush land with an inland sea and tropical to semitropical flora and fauna. It was an area controlled by the ancient Kurus of Bharat ancient india. There is a lot of vedic influence in ancient arabia and many of the rituals and worship in modern islam is influenced in part by the vedic religion and culture of ancient india . Scholars even trace the Ka'aba as a preislamic vedic maha lingam or holy shrine to the hindu tri-murti...!

CHECK OUT THIS SITE FOR EYE OPENER:

http://www.stephen-knapp.com/proof_of_vedic_culture's_global_existence.htm

BE SURE TO READ THIS ONE WHICH EXPOSES THE RELATIONSHIP OF VEDIC /HINDUISM INFLUENCE ON ISLAM AND ARABIA !!!:

http://www.swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/archives/byauthor/aditichaturvedi/vpopia1.html

ALSO READ THIS :http://www.swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/archives/byauthor/aditichaturvedi/vpopia3.html

THE PRE ISLAMIC VEDIC INFLUENCE IS SO GREAT THAT EVEN THE NAME MOHAMMAD WAS DERIVED THUS:

MAHA + ATMAn--->MAHA + MADAN--->MOHA + MADD(N)---->MOHA MMADD---->MOHAMMAD !!!!

( the etymology thus maha=great from mega as in megaWatts, megaPlex, atman=atem, atmen, in german atmen to breath, ADAM the breath, divine breath all having vedic roots via sanskritic !)

Maha Guru Kim Sook-Im

Mano pubanggama Dharma
Mano Setta Mano Maya

Hi ex christian:

Buddham Sarannam Gacchami
Dharmam Sarannam Gacchami
Sangham Sarannam Gacchami :)))


herrrooo,

o.k. ya Ex-Christian salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah wa barakatuh ! :)) ?comos estas?

أليكم السّلام صديقي ..... من فضلك اقرأ هذه المعلومات المهمّة في هذه الصّفحة الإلكترونيّة .....

o.k. i just said in classical arabic if you would be so kind and nice as to read the following web link...you will find the information most interesting :)

http://www.studytoanswer.net/islam_myths.html

hartelijke groeten

Kim Sook-Im
فتاتك البوذيّة الصّغيرة من كوريا !!!أوووه ! لا تنتقد بوذا . بعض المتعصّب البوذيّ ( استحالة ) سيقطع رأسك .....ها ها ها
!!!! :)))
your favorite little buddhist girl from korea.
oooh!!! try not to criticize the Buddha....a fanatical buddhist ( an impossibility) might decide to cut off your head ...ha ha ha :)))


Ex-C, I have been reading your posts in another thread that seems to have died out.

Anyways, I would like to say that you are one of the most closed-minded people I have ever had the misfortune of speaking with.

You said "You can criticize islam, but you CANNOT insult it"

Who the fuck are you tell me what I can and cannot do?

What you said is a prime example of Islams intolerance, and how it is causing massive problems in europe.

By the way, mohammed was steamy pile of camel shit that fucked little boys.

If you have a problem with that, I will be in Sweden in the summer of '05. Name the time and place, as you say most of us hide behind computer screens, I won't, I will tell you the exact same thing to your face.

I apologize to the rest of you for stooping to his level, but that is how you have to deal with some people.


>> I apologize to the rest of you for stooping to his level, but that is how you have to deal with some people.

The US military agrees. It's amazing that the terrorists took them up on the challenge.


Hello blog members,

mullahIslam is a super Cult masquerading as a religion. Truth does not need laws to protect it, truth can stand by itself. MullahIslamists use all kinds of devious means to 'uphold' their cult dogma- dissimulation, deceit,lies, coercion, even physical assault and murder as witnessed a gajillion times in the history of mullahIslam- with the most recent murder of outspoken theo van Gogh in holland. The shocking thing is that the stupid politicians in england on the behest of their islamists lobbyists are gearing to pass a law forbidding the criticism of islam. This is a dangerous precedent to free speech for which Theo would have died in vain. Read the following communique from Dr. Ali Sina and sign the petition for freedom of speech and expression = concepts totally anathema to Islam=a draconian system that enslaves the mind body and soul and which will lead you to perdition! :

article by Dr. Ali Sina:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/sina40828.htm

also read: http://www.geocities.com/islamic_monitor/index.html

Dear Friends,

I have just read and signed the online petition:

"First Amendment freedoms include the right to criticize Islam and Muhammad"

hosted on the web by PetitionOnline.com, the free online petition
service, at:

http://www.PetitionOnline.com/islam999/

I personally agree with what this petition says, and I think you might
agree, too. If you can spare a moment, please take a look, and consider
signing yourself.

Best wishes,

Kim Sook-Im


I haven't seen ex christian around lately. maybe he is plotting a terrorist attack on me because I insulted islam. Oh well, who cares.


Hi Gunnar,

Here is a post on the satanic verses and commentaries. Interestingly the earliest muslim bibliographers reporte on the validity of the quaranic verses.Their very prsence in the quran invalidates that book as divine revelation according to the opinion of the author.

http://answering-islam.org.uk/Index/S/satanic_verses.html

happy reading
Kim Sook-Im


Hi Gunnar,

Here is a post on the satanic verses and commentaries. Interestingly the earliest muslim bibliographers reporte on the validity of the quaranic verses.Their very prsence in the quran invalidates that book as divine revelation according to the opinion of the author.

http://answering-islam.org.uk/Index/S/satanic_verses.html

happy reading
Kim Sook-Im



sorry for the double post, i goofed up :)

Hi Johansson,

You should call on the norse Valkyrja Brunhildr or Freyja in Folkvang to search for ex-christian. He's probably hiding in Mid-Gard :)

Do you see some similarity in the way the fanatical islamists believe in their supposedly holy writ the way that ancient norsemen probably would have believed in Odin, valhalla and Ragnarok? LOL. In a way a lot of the islamist purists are frozen in time.

Kim Sook-Im
koreansk flicka krigare vem lever i Asgard
korean valkyrie staying in Asgard ;))


I notice that they are frozen in time, however the vikings were more tolerant than muslims are today. They encountered many people throughout their travels and had peaceful tradings with many.

not so with muslims. The most amusing thing about EX-C is how he says he is brothers with iraqis, but they would behead him in a second.

Islam is the disease in which the world is suffering from. Maybe good ol' Thor could return and strike down the muslims with Miollnir, his trusty hammer.


hello friends,

here are two articles discussing the 'stockholm syndrome ' which open societies are suffering with regards to islamism.

these articles will shock and open your eyes.


http://www.alexandredelvalle.com/publications.php?id_art=93

and

http://www.alexandredelvalle.com/publications.php?id_art=125

forward article to friends


Thanks / gracias

Kim



dear friends,

here is the link to a free e-book

死亡的先知 *** PROPHET OF DOOM *** نبيّ الموت

prophète de la mort


by Craig Winn

http://www.prophetofdoom.net/

For your sanity i strongly urge you to read or browse through the content...at least read the short introduction!!! It will be a shocker and hopefully wakes everyone up from their complacency. Do f/ward it to friends.

Thanks


I have read that Mohammed annhiliated
the men of a whole jewish tibe (had them
behedded) and sold the women in prostitution.
Moreover Mohammed married a 9 year old girl.
How can such a sinner be a prophet ?
perhaps some muslim out there can explain.

I suggest muslim population is rising
because of the lack of brith control and
womens rights.


Kim, YOU ARE WONDERFUL!

FYI Ex-C's real name is Salahudin (maybe?). At least that was the name he was using on this site back in August, confirmed by Bjoen, with the same canned arguments and the same references to 'expert' muslim sites.

The fact is that Salahudin is so typical of the enlightened Muslims in the West. He hates it (the evil West), but wouldn't be caught dead in those wonderful Muslim societies he so dearly regards. He is a prime example of the hypocrisy and bigotry that is the trademark of Muslims. From personal experience I can tell you, as you doubtless know, that they are incredible. Facts and common sense mean nothing to them. If I had a buck for every time I have heard the words "out of context" and "you don't understand" I would be rich. Oh yes, another point: Muslims can quote from any non-quranic text to prove a point; if you use that same text to argue something, it immediately becomes 'non-authorative'.

Another example of this Orwellian double-speak: Have you noticed how much Salahudin talks about the abuse of women in the West. Yes, it is a problem, as it is everywhere on this planet. Now there is only one well known book that actually endorses beating a wife... Guess which one? Pathetic. If old Van Gogh had just beat up women, it would have been fine with Salhudin, but to expose the problem, that was unforgivable.

The fact is that there are only two kinds of Muslims: those that will kill you themselves (the so-called fundamentalists) and the ones that will let other Muslims kill you and then make excuses (the so-called moderates), like Saludin.

By the way, Salahudin, you never answered my questions from two months ago...
Remember... Do you like Brazilians? Vamos ver se voce responda agora, senao vou ter que falar mal de seu querido profeta (o tal de maome), o filho da puta que era traficante de escravos. Hey, those are fighting words, Salahudin. Actually the Portuguese is close enough to Italian and Spanish to get the general idea.

Thats it!


Oi........ ... Olá John, como esta você. Esta você originalmente de Sao Paulo. Estudei o português continental e a pronunciação o pronuncia em lisboa é um pouco diferente que o português falado em Brasil. Incluo sob uma cópia do artigo o que eu escrevi na outra seção deste 'blog' em caso que você ainda não a tinha lido. Gosta-me muito da comida brasileira - tenho provado tutu-de-mineira!! isto e um tipo de comida do estado de minas gerais - nao e? Acredito que 'ex-cristão' gostaria de visitar Brasil. Todos os homens muçulmanos( o pelo menos um grande porcentagem deles LOL ) são hipócritas grandes, eles fingem ser muito morais no seu próprio país islamista, mas uma vez eles partem de casa para visitar o oeste ou outro país democrático, eles transformam-se em 'casanovas' e em animais selvagems de sexo ....ha ha ha...para eles o Brasil e certamente um paraiso de Ala na terra LOL...especialmente ao longe da praia de Ipanema....aaaah as bonitas ..as.formosas mocas brasileiras de Ipanema

o.k. i just told john that a lot of muslim men are such big hypocrites , when they are in their own country they behave like Mr. Holier than Thou, but the minute the leave home to visit a western country or the decadent west or another liberal democratic society ( of course you always have exceptions to the rule) they immediately turn into wild sex -animals lusting after the girls of the decadent democratic societies. Cos a muslim men can marry an infidel girl, but an infidel guy cannot marry a muslimah.....nice cult by-laws to ensure propagation of the cult.

here is a link discussing the growing islamist population in brazil and the ever present potential of upheaval :(

http://www.30-days.net/email03/day19.htm

HERE IS AN IMPORTANT REPORT ON THE GROWING ISLAMIST THREAT FROM LATIN AMERICA-- READ THIS AND PASS IT ON.:

http://www.frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=14557

Muito Obrigada/kamseh hamneeda

Kim Sook-Im
a moca de Corea :))
한국에서 아름다운 여아 :))
the girl from Korea :))


oi again john edwards,

sorry i forgot to give you the article i wrote. It is in portuguese on the thread ' theo van gogh assasinated , it was posted 2004-11-22

muito obrigada

Kim Sook-Im


Kim...

Voce e' realmente m-a-r-a-v-i-l-h-o-s-a!. Para dizer a verdade, nao sou brasileiro, mas depois de 25 anos em Sao Paulo e Rio, e com uma esposa e tres filhos brasileiros - acho que posso dizer que sou brasileiro de coracao.

You don't have to tell me about Muslim hypocrites --- they have made it an art form. For most of my life I couldn't have cared less about Islam. If they wanted to eat sh-t and say it was wonderful, it was their problem. Then a few things happened, small and isolated events. A Cousin went to work on the Basra-Bagdad highway in the 80s, and some other friends worked in Libya in the oil industry. Both of these came back with horrible stories about life and some of the people (not all!) in Muslim countries. In Libya, Ceasar and Lisa told us they could not go out because of the insults they had to endure from Muslim men -- not to mention their hands doing improper things. Then there was a Coptic man in Egypt, one of my first Internet chat sessions (1996 I think), who told me about how the Muslims treated them. The final straw was a pinoy lady, Marilu, who had worked in Singapore (she hated the pregancy tests every 30 days!) who told me she used to complain about Singapore until her cousin came back from Saudi Arabia. If only half of what she told me is true, the whole Kingdom of Saud is a filthy blight on the face of this earth. It seems that foreigners have no rights in Arabia, specially the Indians and far-eastern Asians who do the everyday jobs. To make a long story short, most Muslims have absolutely no sense of honor, respect or decency (well, there were a few that were decent, she said, but they could only simpathize). I won't go into the details, but it is disgusting what the expatriot community has to put up with from the Saudis(sexual harrassment, non-payment for work, persecution, physical abuse, bad food, etc...). And this is what people like Salahudin stand for....

Then came Sept 11. So once in a while I take time to speak out against Big MO, the slaver-pedophile (4 wives for ye, but 20+ for me) and his band of pathetic followers. After a couple of threats, from the usual "you'll be sorry" to "I'm going to cut your heart out" I decided that no Muslim deserved respect. They are are either bigots or they are dangerous. It is a sad, sad story.

But it can be fun, too. There is nothing like going to one of the PC "Islam is Peace" meetings organized by the local government and being able to ask questions at the end of the session. Imagine in the face of a Saudi Imam being asked in what year Saudi Arabia formally abolished slavery... (hint: well within my lifetime) or asking his opinion about an editorial in a Kenyan newspaper asking whatever happened to all the blacks taken north by Arab slavers over the centuries. It ain't a pretty picture, but there is some humor and petty gratification in it for me.

So when I find time I speak out in person or go to different Internet sites like this, to speak out for those in Islamic lands who have no voice and who suffer in silience.

Well that all for now. May the good Lord bless all of us who really care about people, especially the people who share their concerns on this site. We are not perfect and sometimes we let our emotions run away, or we are sometimes not as nice as we would like, but we try and we really care. All you have to do is be honest and speak out.

Tchau! ciao adios amigos...



In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful,

"Permission to fight (against disbelievers) is given to those (believers) who are fought against, because they have been wronged and surely, Allah is Able to give them (believers) victory" [Quran 22:39]

"Those who believe, fight in the Cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve, fight in the cause of Taghut (anything worshipped other than Allah e.g. Satan). So fight you against the friends of Satan; ever feeble is indeed the plot of Satan."[Quran 4:76]

Some American writers have published articles under the title 'On what basis are we fighting?' These articles have generated a number of responses, some of which adhered to the truth and were based on Islamic Law, and others which have not. Here we wanted to outline the truth - as an explanation and warning - hoping for Allah's reward, seeking success and support from Him.

While seeking Allah's help, we form our reply based on two questions directed at the Americans:

(Q1) Why are we fighting and opposing you?
Q2)What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple:

(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.

a) You attacked us in Palestine:

(i) Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for more than 80 years. The British handed over Palestine, with your help and your support, to the Jews, who have occupied it for more than 50 years; years overflowing with oppression, tyranny, crimes, killing, expulsion, destruction and devastation. The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel. The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily.

(ii) It brings us both laughter and tears to see that you have not yet tired of repeating your fabricated lies that the Jews have a historical right to Palestine, as it was promised to them in the Torah. Anyone who disputes with them on this alleged fact is accused of anti-semitism. This is one of the most fallacious, widely-circulated fabrications in history. The people of Palestine are pure Arabs and original Semites. It is the Muslims who are the inheritors of Moses (peace be upon him) and the inheritors of the real Torah that has not been changed. Muslims believe in all of the Prophets, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all. If the followers of Moses have been promised a right to Palestine in the Torah, then the Muslims are the most worthy nation of this.

When the Muslims conquered Palestine and drove out the Romans, Palestine and Jerusalem returned to Islaam, the religion of all the Prophets peace be upon them. Therefore, the call to a historical right to Palestine cannot be raised against the Islamic Ummah that believes in all the Prophets of Allah (peace and blessings be upon them) - and we make no distinction between them.

(iii) The blood pouring out of Palestine must be equally revenged. You must know that the Palestinians do not cry alone; their women are not widowed alone; their sons are not orphaned alone.

(b) You attacked us in Somalia; you supported the Russian atrocities against us in Chechnya, the Indian oppression against us in Kashmir, and the Jewish aggression against us in Lebanon.

(c) Under your supervision, consent and orders, the governments of our countries which act as your agents, attack us on a daily basis;

(i) These governments prevent our people from establishing the Islamic Shariah, using violence and lies to do so.

(ii) These governments give us a taste of humiliation, and places us in a large prison of fear and subdual.

(iii) These governments steal our Ummah's wealth and sell them to you at a paltry price.

(iv) These governments have surrendered to the Jews, and handed them most of Palestine, acknowledging the existence of their state over the dismembered limbs of their own people.

(v) The removal of these governments is an obligation upon us, and a necessary step to free the Ummah, to make the Shariah the supreme law and to regain Palestine. And our fight against these governments is not separate from out fight against you.

(d) You steal our wealth and oil at paltry prices because of you international influence and military threats. This theft is indeed the biggest theft ever witnessed by mankind in the history of the world.

(e) Your forces occupy our countries; you spread your military bases throughout them; you corrupt our lands, and you besiege our sanctities, to protect the security of the Jews and to ensure the continuity of your pillage of our treasures.

(f) You have starved the Muslims of Iraq, where children die every day. It is a wonder that more than 1.5 million Iraqi children have died as a result of your sanctions, and you did not show concern. Yet when 3000 of your people died, the entire world rises and has not yet sat down.

(g) You have supported the Jews in their idea that Jerusalem is their eternal capital, and agreed to move your embassy there. With your help and under your protection, the Israelis are planning to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque. Under the protection of your weapons, Sharon entered the Al-Aqsa mosque, to pollute it as a preparation to capture and destroy it.

(2) These tragedies and calamities are only a few examples of your oppression and aggression against us. It is commanded by our religion and intellect that the oppressed have a right to return the aggression. Do not await anything from us but Jihad, resistance and revenge. Is it in any way rational to expect that after America has attacked us for more than half a century, that we will then leave her to live in security and peace?!!

(3) You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake:

(a) This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom, and its leaders in this world. Therefore, the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies. Thus the American people have chosen, consented to, and affirmed their support for the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians, the occupation and usurpation of their land, and its continuous killing, torture, punishment and expulsion of the Palestinians. The American people have the ability and choice to refuse the policies of their Government and even to change it if they want.

(b) The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates.

(c) Also the American army is part of the American people. It is this very same people who are shamelessly helping the Jews fight against us.

(d) The American people are the ones who employ both their men and their women in the American Forces which attack us.

(e) This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us.

(f) Allah, the Almighty, legislated the permission and the option to take revenge. Thus, if we are attacked, then we have the right to attack back. Whoever has destroyed our villages and towns, then we have the right to destroy their villages and towns. Whoever has stolen our wealth, then we have the right to destroy their economy. And whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill theirs.

The American Government and press still refuses to answer the question:

Why did they attack us in New York and Washington?

If Sharon is a man of peace in the eyes of Bush, then we are also men of peace!!! America does not understand the language of manners and principles, so we are addressing it using the language it understands.

(Q2) As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.

(a) The religion of the Unification of God; of freedom from associating partners with Him, and rejection of this; of complete love of Him, the Exalted; of complete submission to His Laws; and of the discarding of all the opinions, orders, theories and religions which contradict with the religion He sent down to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Islam is the religion of all the prophets, and makes no distinction between them - peace be upon them all.

It is to this religion that we call you; the seal of all the previous religions. It is the religion of Unification of God, sincerity, the best of manners, righteousness, mercy, honour, purity, and piety. It is the religion of showing kindness to others, establishing justice between them, granting them their rights, and defending the oppressed and the persecuted. It is the religion of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil with the hand, tongue and heart. It is the religion of Jihad in the way of Allah so that Allah's Word and religion reign Supreme. And it is the religion of unity and agreement on the obedience to Allah, and total equality between all people, without regarding their colour, sex, or language.

(b) It is the religion whose book - the Quran - will remained preserved and unchanged, after the other Divine books and messages have been changed. The Quran is the miracle until the Day of Judgment. Allah has challenged anyone to bring a book like the Quran or even ten verses like it.

(2) The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you.

(a) We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling's, and trading with interest.

We call you to all of this that you may be freed from that which you have become caught up in; that you may be freed from the deceptive lies that you are a great nation, that your leaders spread amongst you to conceal from you the despicable state to which you have reached.

(b) It is saddening to tell you that you are the worst civilization witnessed by the history of mankind:

(i) You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. You flee from the embarrassing question posed to you: How is it possible for Allah the Almighty to create His creation, grant them power over all the creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives?

(ii) You are the nation that permits Usury, which has been forbidden by all the religions. Yet you build your economy and investments on Usury. As a result of this, in all its different forms and guises, the Jews have taken control of your economy, through which they have then taken control of your media, and now control all aspects of your life making you their servants and achieving their aims at your expense; precisely what Benjamin Franklin warned you against.

(iii) You are a nation that permits the production, trading and usage of intoxicants. You also permit drugs, and only forbid the trade of them, even though your nation is the largest consumer of them.

(iv) You are a nation that permits acts of immorality, and you consider them to be pillars of personal freedom. You have continued to sink down this abyss from level to level until incest has spread amongst you, in the face of which neither your sense of honour nor your laws object.

Who can forget your President Clinton's immoral acts committed in the official Oval office? After that you did not even bring him to account, other than that he 'made a mistake', after which everything passed with no punishment. Is there a worse kind of event for which your name will go down in history and remembered by nations?

(v) You are a nation that permits gambling in its all forms. The companies practice this as well, resulting in the investments becoming active and the criminals becoming rich.

(vi) You are a nation that exploits women like consumer products or advertising tools calling upon customers to purchase them. You use women to serve passengers, visitors, and strangers to increase your profit margins. You then rant that you support the liberation of women.

(vii) You are a nation that practices the trade of sex in all its forms, directly and indirectly. Giant corporations and establishments are established on this, under the name of art, entertainment, tourism and freedom, and other deceptive names you attribute to it.

(viii) And because of all this, you have been described in history as a nation that spreads diseases that were unknown to man in the past. Go ahead and boast to the nations of man, that you brought them AIDS as a Satanic American Invention.

(xi) You have destroyed nature with your industrial waste and gases more than any other nation in history. Despite this, you refuse to sign the Kyoto agreement so that you can secure the profit of your greedy companies and*industries.

(x) Your law is the law of the rich and wealthy people, who hold sway in their political parties, and fund their election campaigns with their gifts. Behind them stand the Jews, who control your policies, media and economy.

(xi) That which you are singled out for in the history of mankind, is that you have used your force to destroy mankind more than any other nation in history; not to defend principles and values, but to hasten to secure your interests and profits. You who dropped a nuclear bomb on Japan, even though Japan was ready to negotiate an end to the war. How many acts of oppression, tyranny and injustice have you carried out, O callers to freedom?

(xii) Let us not forget one of your major characteristics: your duality in both manners and values; your hypocrisy in manners and principles. All*manners, principles and values have two scales: one for you and one for the others.

(a)The freedom and democracy that you call to is for yourselves and for white race only; as for the rest of the world, you impose upon them your monstrous, destructive policies and Governments, which you call the 'American friends'. Yet you prevent them from establishing democracies. When the Islamic party in Algeria wanted to practice democracy and they won the election, you unleashed your agents in the Algerian army onto them, and to attack them with tanks and guns, to imprison them and torture them - a new lesson from the 'American book of democracy'!!!

(b)Your policy on prohibiting and forcibly removing weapons of mass destruction to ensure world peace: it only applies to those countries which you do not permit to possess such weapons. As for the countries you consent to, such as Israel, then they are allowed to keep and use such weapons to defend their security. Anyone else who you suspect might be manufacturing or keeping these kinds of weapons, you call them criminals and you take military action against them.

(c)You are the last ones to respect the resolutions and policies of International Law, yet you claim to want to selectively punish anyone else who does the same. Israel has for more than 50 years been pushing UN resolutions and rules against the wall with the full support of America.

(d)As for the war criminals which you censure and form criminal courts for - you shamelessly ask that your own are granted immunity!! However, history will not forget the war crimes that you committed against the Muslims and the rest of the world; those you have killed in Japan, Afghanistan, Somalia, Lebanon and Iraq will remain a shame that you will never be able to escape. It will suffice to remind you of your latest war crimes in Afghanistan, in which densely populated innocent civilian villages were destroyed, bombs were dropped on mosques causing the roof of the mosque to come crashing down on the heads of the Muslims praying inside. You are the ones who broke the agreement with the Mujahideen when they left Qunduz, bombing them in Jangi fort, and killing more than 1,000 of your prisoners through suffocation and thirst. Allah alone knows how many people have died by torture at the hands of you and your agents. Your planes remain in the Afghan skies, looking for anyone remotely suspicious.

(e)You have claimed to be the vanguards of Human Rights, and your Ministry of Foreign affairs issues annual reports containing statistics of those countries that violate any Human Rights. However, all these things vanished when the Mujahideen hit you, and you then implemented the methods of the same documented governments that you used to curse. In America, you captured thousands the Muslims and Arabs, took them into custody with neither reason, court trial, nor even disclosing their names. You issued newer, harsher laws.

What happens in Guatanamo is a historical embarrassment to America and its values, and it screams into your faces - you hypocrites, "What is the value of your signature on any agreement or treaty?"

(3) What we call you to thirdly is to take an honest stance with yourselves - and I doubt you will do so - to discover that you are a nation without principles or manners, and that the values and principles to you are something which you merely demand from others, not that which you yourself must adhere to.

(4) We also advise you to stop supporting Israel, and to end your support of the Indians in Kashmir, the Russians against the Chechens and to also cease supporting the Manila Government against the Muslims in Southern Philippines.

(5) We also advise you to pack your luggage and get out of our lands. We desire for your goodness, guidance, and righteousness, so do not force us to send you back as cargo in coffins.

(6) Sixthly, we call upon you to end your support of the corrupt leaders in our countries. Do not interfere in our politics and method of education. Leave us alone, or else expect us in New York and Washington.

(7) We also call you to deal with us and interact with us on the basis of mutual interests and benefits, rather than the policies of sub dual, theft and occupation, and not to continue your policy of supporting the Jews because this will result in more disasters for you.

If you fail to respond to all these conditions, then prepare for fight with the Islamic Nation. The Nation of Monotheism, that puts complete trust on Allah and fears none other than Him. The Nation which is addressed by its Quran with the words: "Do you fear them? Allah has more right that you should fear Him if you are believers. Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of believing people. And remove the anger of their (believers') hearts. Allah accepts the repentance of whom He wills. Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise." [Quran9:13-1]

The Nation of honour and respect:

"But honour, power and glory belong to Allah, and to His Messenger (Muhammad- peace be upon him) and to the believers." [Quran 63:8]

"So do not become weak (against your enemy), nor be sad, and you will be*superior ( in victory )if you are indeed (true) believers" [Quran 3:139]

The Nation of Martyrdom; the Nation that desires death more than you desire life:

"Think not of those who are killed in the way of Allah as dead. Nay, they are alive with their Lord, and they are being provided for. They rejoice in what Allah has bestowed upon them from His bounty and rejoice for the sake of those who have not yet joined them, but are left behind (not yet martyred) that on them no fear shall come, nor shall they grieve. They rejoice in a grace and a bounty from Allah, and that Allah will not waste the reward of the believers." [Quran 3:169-171]

The Nation of victory and success that Allah has promised:

"It is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad peace be upon him) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam), to make it victorious over all other religions even though the Polytheists hate it." [Quran 61:9]

"Allah has decreed that 'Verily it is I and My Messengers who shall be victorious.' Verily Allah is All-Powerful, All-Mighty." [Quran 58:21]

The Islamic Nation that was able to dismiss and destroy the previous evil Empires like yourself; the Nation that rejects your attacks, wishes to remove your evils, and is prepared to fight you. You are well aware that the Islamic Nation, from the very core of its soul, despises your haughtiness and arrogance.

If the Americans refuse to listen to our advice and the goodness, guidance and righteousness that we call them to, then be aware that you will lose this Crusade Bush began, just like the other previous Crusades in which you were humiliated by the hands of the Mujahideen, fleeing to your home in great silence and disgrace. If the Americans do not respond, then their fate will be that of the Soviets who fled from Afghanistan to deal with their military defeat, political breakup, ideological downfall, and economic bankruptcy.

This is our message to the Americans, as an answer to theirs. Do they now know why we fight them and over which form of ignorance, by the permission of Allah, we shall be victorious .


"Osama" here just provided a perfect example of why, no matter how much our sensitive, nuanced, tolerant leftists want to believe otherwise, Islam is imperialism and terrorism under the guise of a religion.


السلام أليكم وا رهمت ألله وا براكته
salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah wa barakatuh

Hello Jeff and Osama Falun(most likely a pseudonym LOL ):

Jeff you are so right !...mullahIslam is a predatory belief system, a frightening theocratic Fascism that provokes chaos,mayhem, murder and eventual perdition to any society tainted by it.
The shocking thing is that this version of Islam which we refer to as mullahIslam is not even what the Quranic injunctions inspire. Osama Falun has been duped. Typically a large percentage of adherents of this superCult of mullahism portrays a situation of victimization. MullahIslam had been at war with the world and itself since its invention by the arabs and their cohorts millenia ago. The mullahists were already engaged in strife even before the inception of israel, even before the formation of the United States of America ...ask the millions of armenians decimated by the islamist horde, ask the chaeldeans, assyrians of iraq/the original inhabitants of iraq/nineveh ! ask them how they have been decimated, ask the buddhist in chittagon area of bangladesh, ask the buddhists in thailand, ask the millions of hindus liquidated by the savage islamists moghul emperors, ask the million plus europeans enslaved by the barbary coast islamist pirates and their mullahislamist cohorts in the last century. It is the nature of the beast to foment unrest and mayhem and death and destruction...for they follow and 'arab religion' of their making, not the Quran which enjoins them not to take life, to be civil and to do good deeds . I refer you to this eye opening and shocking dissertation:

Everyone read this please----->http://www.free-minds.org/Arab_Conspiracy.html

also read this---->http://www.faithfreedom.org/Author/Sina.htm

(scroll down and click on title : islamist game of victimization)

Give me your feed backs.

Thanks
شكرًا, السلام أليكم
너를 감사하십시요

Kim Sook-Im


A Good Moderate Muslim Is Hard To Find

nominal Muslims in the U.S. and around the world have no clear idea of what the Qur’an actually says, or what the traditions of their religion in fact do teach.

This group, of course, is the radicals’ largest recruiting ground: again and again — notably in the case of the Al-Qaeda cell in Lackawanna, New York — they have radicalized such “moderates” simply by teaching them what the Qur’an says.

...

“Moderate Islam” as a viable entity is still in an inchoate state theologically; it is largely a cultural habit that is ever vulnerable to being overturned by by-the-book radicals

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=16097


Bless you, Kim Sook-Im. If the west is to survive we must expose the real teachings of Islam, and you are doing a wonderful job of it. Thank you for the link to "Prophet of Doom"! I have just downloaded and look forward to reading it. I just finished reading "Islam and Terrorism", which was a real eye opener.

It would seem that few people realize yet that all the "peaceful" verses of the Koran are invalidated by later violent ones. I am hoping to get my hands on a copy of a chronological Koran with commentary by an expert who is not Islamic. Do you know of any?

I have realized just in the last few months that to be a moderate muslim is to be lukewarm muslim. The terrorists are doing exactly what Mohammed preached and lived.

I vary some from most of the posters in that I support the mosque firebombers in Holland. I consider the bombers to be patriots. Things need to be brought to a head while the population is still predominantly Dutch. Note all the bombings have been directed at empty structures so far, so the body count is still just Theo van Gogh.

You guys are really wasting your time trying to convince a muslim with these arguments. (It is good you making them expose themselves). From what little I have read, most muslims need to come to the conclusion Islam is rotten by themselves, or by the gentle teachings of a close friend.

By the way ex-Christian - Islam teaches that the only way someone can be sure of going to heaven is to die in jihad. Thus a lot of muslims will be in hell, assuming the Koran is right, which of course it isn't. Ex-Christian, you are really just making a fool of yourself with a lot of your arguments.


Hi Sonja,
you are welcome. Here is another shocking link. According to this learned individual Aidid Safar, the muslims are not even pracising islam, but rather a perverted form of olden judeochristianity - a religion of the pharasees which brings perdition.He opines that is why we hv the ruinous state of affair.

http://aididsafar.com/index.html

Folks do read this like also.......


30% ! That is an amazing figure!

Some 300,000 of the 1 million Muslims in Holland fervently support the radical imams and mosques that preach jihad against the Jews, the West and all infidels. ... In the wake of van Gogh's murder, many Netherlanders have come to recognize this. Seventy-five percent told pollsters they support "radical" measures for dealing with terrorists, and Deputy Prime Minister Gerrit Zalm announced that the Dutch cabinet had "declared war on Islamic extremism." Those who don't support Holland's tradition of free speech have been publicly invited to leave the country, even if they are citizens, and the government is preparing to close radical mosques altogether.

The New York Times would not approve. But sane observers will recognize the Dutch as the first Europeans to display a healthy survival instinct. It is not too late for the rest of Europe -- yet.

-Mona Charen


"30% ! That is an amazing figure!"

Gunnar plz remember links to anything that might be of interest to others.


I am one of those who supports the incitement of Moslems in Europe to act out their wishes publicly rather than having them hide behind taqiyya and kitman, their religiously sanctioned deception in the form of tolerance and pacifism. Hudna in dar al-Harb, truce in the Land of War, i.e. pretending to live as common citizens in non-Islamic nations while plotting to over-throw those very nations, is about to come to light as nothing more than Koranic vileness. Give them more opportunities to show their true religion in action. I do not, of course, advocate violence or any illegal activity, but I do encourage all Europeans to make known their displeasure with the totalitarianism of Islam that Moslems are trying to force on Europeans generally. Europeans? Aren't Moslems as European as anyone else in Europe? No, they are not: Moslems belong only to the Islamic ummah, the community of Moslems. That is their only political loyalty.

If I may, without being a spammer, I'd like to ask you to join me and many others to learn more about Islam by coming to jihadwatch and clarityandresolve. People around the world are extremely concerned about the events in the Netherlands, and one hopes that we will in time unite our strengths and talents and push back the forces of Islam and the encroachment of shari'a on the Western world.


Dear Comrades and Friends

Dag Walker speaks the truth. If muslims are sincere about reconciling with the rest of the world they should denounce the acts of violence and subject their creed to vigorous reformation and purge their ideology of hate and dissension. Stop dividing the world into the 'house of war ' and 'house of peace'... many feel that islam is a lost cause and reforming it is impossible, you would have to edit pretty much the whole book and purge it of its venom and hate. If you wonder what is preached in the mosques all around your neighbourhood take at look at this moderate islamic site concerning their doctrines and ask of yourself if there is any hope that islamists can really live in peace and harmony with their neighbours given that they are fed doses and doses of venom and hate day in day out from cradle to the grave:

click here--->http://muttaqun.com/index.html


Angel of Truth
ملاك الحقيقة
真相天使


Ex-C:

After wading through your posts and counter posts i have come to two conclusions:

1. Since you are an ex-christian and now a muslim this means you are simply succeptable to the brainwashing nonsense that is religion. If you need the fear of 'allah' to enforce moral standards on your life then you have serious problems.

2. You need to learn about tolerance and being open minded.

The link to the car bombing you posted was disgusting. You seemed quite proud of it. The gibbering idiot that is chanting god is great in the background the whole time is indicative of the kind of uneducated, brainwashed psychopath that would perpetrate this kind of act.

You constantly counter agruements by pointing an accusing finger at Christianity or the bible. Who cares? No one would disagree that the bible is as intolerant as the Koran. But as Jeff pointed out, Isalm could learn from the kind of transformation Christinanity has taken to fit with the modern world.

The most important thing is that no matter what the religion, killing or anything else in the name of a religion is wrong, wrong, wrong.


I have made many observations about different religions and I have found that there are three main groups of Muslim:

1. A Muslim who has been "Brainwashed" into following a "misinterpreted" version of the Qu'ran and believing that they have the right to look down at people who believe differently.

2. A Muslim who has been educated by western ways and western philosophies, who uses the basic principles of the Qu'ran as a guideline and also sees others as equals.

3. A Muslim who would rather just sit back and respect people for who they are and not which religion they follow.

There are obviously many more "groups" which could match others Muslims but I have not met every Muslim on earth and have only come to categorise these three groups. You may not agree but this is what I feel is a part of the bigger picture.


hello Will,
There are in general two kinds of muslims: l) the very pious ones which observe the koranic injunctions and will kill you , because in his world view you are a wretched infidel ...the worst of beast according to their holy writ ! and 2) muslims who do not know their holy writ well or are not sufficiently indoctrinated to become lethal. Majority of the terrorists are muslims...not all muslims are terrorists....HOWEVER ALL MUSLIMS HAVE THE POTENTIAL TO TURN DEADLY IF SUFFICIENTLY EXPOSED TO THE QURANIC INJUNCTIONS WHICH IS THE DEMONIC FORCE IMPELLING THEM TO COMMIT HEINOUS CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY....MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT...MULLAHISLAM IS A SUPER-CULT MASQUERADING AS A RELIGION....ITS FRUITS ARE RUINATION AND PERDITION

THIS SITES SAY IT ALL:

--->www.faithfreedom.org
---> www.dhimmiwatch.org
----> www.secularislam.org

here is a link with 200+ sites on alternative view of islam:

http://www.8ung.at/antijihad/

Thanks

angel of truth
ملاك الحقيقة
真相天使


''Why, if men and women are equal under islam, can men marry up to four women while a woman can only marry one man?''

Because if woman has many husbands and if she got pregnant, you cant know who is the father, GOT IT ? I thought it will be very easy for you to figure that out !
-----------------
ahaaa, and why/where/to whom is fatherhood ever that important? In places which due to selfdefeating success matrilinial societies of nurturing extended families with high levels of genderintegration and tender intimacy, in other words where overpopulation brings the 'work' of elbowpower to the fore, in a word patrism. This vicious circle will worsen climates, drive genders apart, initiate specialization, erosion, migration and great dependence on hierarchy and violence further worsening climates and aggravating desertification, no need to decide between/for any of the three stage monotheisms in this respect since they are truly equal, just not concommitant but consecutive.

Take a breath and a step back from the o so pressing immediate present and look at the rise and fall of civilizations; those arising in the most fertile neighbourhoods of our earthly clod had a change to go all the way down this spiral of degeneracy and many of them more than once dragging neighbouring peoples into 'Mitleidenschaft'.

There you have it, evolutionary tragedy in a nutshell. Sound counsel? Cheap. Abandon all holy books, raise compost to the level of reverence commanding it would be were it not amorphously but anthropomorphably potent, then begin the fight to push back manmade desert into the realm of sterile singularity from whence it was delved by brain fermenting sexually purity advocates like you.

This is all I can do by way of plea for help to follow my own counsel which I refuse to do alone or in a too small community in a too hostile world. ... .or wait, I'll offer some corroboration: http://hyperstition.abstractdynamics.org/archives/004377.html#comments follow the saharasia link there.


ml#comments follow the saharasia link there.


to most honorable Chief Bjoern Staerk:

MEA CULPA, MEA CULPA !!!!

Oh most generous Chief Strong Bear may the Great Spirit bless and prosper your Blog. Oh thou most gracious and forgiving Warrior - Strong Bear of the Norweejah Tribe. Allow this humble indian maiden, Minnehaha to approach thy exulted wigwam to profer her wampums as a token of appreciation for your generosity towards her trangressions.

Your humble Hand-Maiden , Princess Minnehaha of the Koreea tribe

... 한국의 부족에게서..princessMinnehaha대단히감사합니다

P.s. Oh great Chief Strong Bear, your humble maiden, Minnehaha had only sought to post a warning to all the neighbouring tribes regarding a most evil spirit of Yshlam that has befouled our beloved mother earth. Our most wise medicine man - Running Wolf - has foreseen this in his oracles and upon his urging have this humble indian maiden sought to alert our warriors in the face of this impending evil. May the Great Spirit preserve us all....!!!!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This blog is just an agreement on one thing, Islam is bad and we have to be in fear and islam is taking over our lifes, It is seems that quite a lot of you are scared, I see and read fear. They were just a bunch of lunitic, and they were able to do what was tjought to be something that you see in the american movies. Unfortunalely, the real world is not a hollywood movie, The disscusion rallies usually about hatred and favers of american's to europeans.
No real balance of opinions from right-wing extremist and some other orientations.
What the point of this disccussion if you keep between yourselfs and only try to win every argumet. No single comments or somebody stating that he was wrong about something, everybody only discedit any other contradicting opinions and prasie similar points of view with no objectivity in mind, lot of fear.


The new problem of the world power is it wants that everybody believe in the same values, To a large extent, americans are more systematically braind washed than muslims ( muslims are braind washed, do not know about thier quran statements are as in the case of major number of us citizens, they arte not brain-washed by imams but rather by a lot of manufactred hollywood style media ....

They have people with Ph.D to mass control, even more dangerous because what they seek is only more power and control, they are masters of the game, The extrimist imam could have a reason or another to go wrong ( injustices and prejedices, nobody like the poor people, smelly africans or stinky indians or single-minded islamic followers but what about the non-stinky power lusty control freak bastards, what about those who sleep in thier bed afraid of loosing thier freedom instead of prasingh and living life to the extent to help the so-called stinky immigrant, what about saying to him, good morning my fellow poor-immigrant instead that he is going to jump into your pocket snd steel your money, this can go both ways, he could jumo at the end but the question ism why are you so scared ?!!.


I would suggest too have more insight into this disccusion to bring to a broader audience, what the point if start a blog when you keep supporting each other argumet and not touching even the wrong details that support your main pre-made opinion ?!


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In all of recorded history there has never been a greater threat to humanity than the cult of islam. Hiding behind a "holy" book filled with justification of multitudes of aborhant behaviour (it is ok to kill, rape, pillage, lie...so long as it is against a non-believer), lead by psycotic demagogues to acts of violence against any who disagree with them. I applaud the defenders of Christianity in Holland who say enough is enough...Defend your lives, or these animals will take them from you. When this is all done, we will leave these sons of pigs on the dung heap of history. There are 2 types of muslim: He who has tried to kill you, and he who will try...If you have any doubts, read the koran, and either pick up a gun or lay down your life, this is WAR!


America (despite the media portrayal) is a generally pasifistic and (unfortunately) apathetic country. I live in a suburb of Baltimore, Maryland and am amazed to witness neighbors (some are even police officers) who won't call in suspicious and sometimes criminal activity that they witness on a weekly basis. My neighbors hide behind locked doors content with their cable television and nintendo and wait for insurance companies to pay for any criminal damages they endure. Fortunately, America has decisive and couragous leadership (Bush Administration) that realizes one must take the fight to the enemy. Tragic as the loss of 2000+ allied soldiers in the global war on terrorism is, I take solace in knowing 40,000 to 100,000 terrorists/militants have been eliminated. This war has been raging for 1000 years and will forever more because there are no concessions that either side can give. In this brief period of time, we are fighting back.


nice chat: , and I dont know who have the right: the nazis that kill hundres of jew children in germany, the christian group that supor Bush to win his presidency to continue killing children in irak, the terrorist muslim that kill 1000 in sep. eleven, the jews that kill every day palestinians and throw them out on them houses, the americans when they bomb hiroshima and nagazaki, and kill millions, or the japonsee when they bomb Pearl Harbor and kill 3,000.. any way at that moments we was very confortable in our houses watching CNN and we didnt care. Well now america should fill happy for that, now muslim people are busy with the Denmark affairs and given less attention to all the atrocities that they are doing in Iraq. So they will have green light to continue killing chilgren in Iraq in the name of them freedom.


All muslims hould be deported from all of Europe. This is all Muslims...100%. Every last one of these bastards. There is no such thing as moderate Islam. Get rid of these savages now!


all this talk about muslims being terrorits is bull shit...i mean seriously


ok i used to think the same bull but i was talking to my muslim friend and i thought this all has to be bullshit...i mean he is like the top kid in our grade..great athlete...really funny..and very social...and most muslims are like him....

the only difference is he doesnt have a girlfried because he cant have sex till he marries...he prays 5 times a day (this only takes like 5 minutes by the way) and one month a year he fast during the daylight hours.......he doesnt fear his God he loves him

all this "mulsims are terrorist" bullshit has to stop..its hurting him and all other moderater muslims.


also i saw the cartoons drawn of Muahmmad depicting him as a terrorist or whatever...wow they were disgutsing..and worng

ok im like the number 1 supporter of free speech and i think people should be able to say waht they want whenevr they want...but seriously u should have the decency to learn about something before you go make fun of it....ok lets say a newspaper goes and does something like that...when it realizes that it makes people mad it puts them up everwhere..thats just indecent and insensitive

After doing some research you will see like i did that he is nothing like that....i mean you dont have to be a freaking mulism just to show respect

afetr looking at the disgusting carttoons i thought wat would i think if they depicted my Jesus like that and i realized just how disgusting that was

Besides if u no anything about


islamic history (which you prob should read about a little before you go criticize) you will notice that wat al qaeda and all those fuking carzy terrosits are doing now are nothing like muhammead did...After being abused by mecca and the arabs all his life when he had the upper hand and was conqueiring Mecca not a single drop of blood was shed and no Prisoner of Wars were taken....if u didnt want 2 be a muslim u werent forced to.....THAT DOESNT SOUND LIKE A TERRPIST 2 ME


o and btw sry i didnt put that in one thing i pressed post by acident


Lost Verses of the Koran

Surah 115: The Pig

Bismillah:

The hurried flight of the Hegira had led the Muslims to a fertile oasis, where they were at last safe from their many enemies in Mecca.
Pausing, each thanked Allah the moon-god for their good fortune.
Assembling at a long table, they enjoyed rare delicacies brought by bare-breasted sirens whose faces were veiled. During the feast Muhammad sternly forbade his disciples to partake of pig flesh, while fondling the youthful breasts of a Nubian girl named Sheba.
Obeying the Prophet, the pilgrims partook of the succulent flesh of jackals and vultures, washing their food down with strong wine.
“I never dreamed I’d have to eat the loins of a jackal, let alone the bitter entrails of a cursed vulture,” observed a hungry pilgrim named Ahmed to a fellow Muslim, choking on the unpalatable morsels.
“Neither did I, but the Holy Prophet has ordered it,” grumbled another starving follower, almost heaving as he consumed greasy vulture flesh.
“A rancid pork chop would taste a hell of a lot better than this crap does,” retorted Ahmed.
“It’s an acquired taste brother, you’ll get used to it,” spoke up another, smiling with a mouthful of rotten teeth.
“I don’t think so,” said Ahmed, forcing down a burned jackal testicle.
An uncaring Muhammad, famished, greedily wolfed down roasted jackal in enjoyment, quaffing from an earthenware wine carafe on occasion, while choosing which of the sirens that would soon endure his favors.
The meal finished in the late afternoon, a drunken, lustful Muhammad initiated a sex orgy with the sirens, the debauched Holy Prophet, Allah speaking through him, declaring all earlier betrothals or marriages of the women he knew null and void.
The Muslims celebrated their good fortune, again thanking Allah for the bounty they had been blessed to receive.
Later, as Muhammad sat half-naked under a palm tree, masturbating to the thought of molesting little girls, Ahmed chanced by and remarked, "Oh great prophet, why does Allah say that we cannot dine on delicious porcine flesh?"
"Why?" asked Muhammad, closing his filthy, tattered, moth-eaten robe, "Because Allah's younger retarded cyclops brother is a pig, and Allah doesn't want us killing his holy kinfolk."
"Allah is a pig?" asked Ahmed, staring at Muhammad.
"Of course," replied the deranged Prophet, hallucinating thanks to ingesting strong hashish minutes earlier.
"That's ridiculous, why in hell do we worship pigs?" asked Ahmed, thinking his flight from Mecca may have been the result of heeding the words of a false prophet, possessed of a capricious desert demon who delighted in seeing them consume the flesh of vermin.
"Because they're better than we are," answered a smiling Muhammad, now fantasizing about raping little boys, "Look at me, I'm little more than a lecherous child molester, thief and murderer!"
"True, but pigs can't even talk!" exclaimed Ahmed, digging a heel into the sand.
"Allah can, he speaks to me in my dreams," retorted the wildly hallucinating Muhammad, barely able to focus on Ahmed, seeing him in double vision.
"You're a madman," declared a disgusted Ahmed, "I'm heading back to join the infidels in Mecca!"
"Who cares?" retorted Muhammad, slurring his words and breaking into riotous laughter.
Prophet Muhammad, opening his robe and again reaching for his flaccid sex organ, was too occupied with masturbating his building erection to reply further, while Ahmed disappeared behind a sand dune.
"What a stupid, perverted, licentious bastard," spat Ahmed, walking off, "Muhammad is crazier than a shithouse rat!"

Surah 116: The Pervert

Bismillah:

And it came to pass that Muhammad was growing ever hornier and more depraved: In a dream it was revealed by Allah that he was to molest a young girl named Ayesha.
Drunk on strong wine, the Prophet looked to a follower named Khalil and announced, “Allah has said I am to have sex on this day with a child; the virgin daughter of my brother in law Abu.”
“What?” asked a frowning Khalil, holding a wine bottle, taken back by the remark and turning to Muhammad.
“I am to know Abu’s daughter Ayesha,” declared Muhammad, a finger in the air, becoming visibly aroused at the thought having sex with her.
“She is but a little girl who plays with dolls; her womb does not yet weep, are you insane?” asked Khalil, knowing in his heart that the Prophet was little more than a pervert, thief, liar and murderer.
“Probably, but it is the will of Allah”, Muhammad said to himself, staggering off to the hovel of Ayesha.
“What a twisted devil the Prophet is – the will of Allah my ass, he’s just an evil, depraved monster who lusts after the flesh,” Khalil mumbled, putting the bottle to his parched lips.
An oblivious and uncaring Muhammad blundered down the street, weaving as he went, arriving at the hovel shortly thereafter.
Knocking on the door, Ayesha’s mother Umm appeared.
“What do you want Prophet?” she asked, staring at the debauched Muhammad, clad in a filthy tan robe covered in dust and wine stains, a lone flea crawling upon his moustache near his nostrils.
“Bismillah, I am here to take your daughter Ayesha in bed,” the Prophet answered, slurring his words.
“You licentious beast!” exclaimed the girl’s mother, “She is only six years old, if it is indeed the will of Allah, take me instead to satisfy your wanton depravity!”
“Taking you is not the will of Allah,” retorted Muhammad, the scent of wine heavy on his foul breath, “You are a wrinkled and faded flower without comeliness; be gone with your favors; I could never get a hard on at the likes of you.”
Enraged by her rebuff, Muhammad smote her upon the face with a backhand.
“That’s what one gets for disobeying the will of Allah,” declared Muhammad, his words punctuated by a loud belch, “Take me to Ayesha, that I may know her on this day!”
Obeying, Umm reluctantly led Muhammad to the room of Ayesha, opening the door.
“This perverted Prophet here wants to screw you,” announced Umm with a frown, Muhammad ogling the virgin child in double vision.
“But you knew my cousin Abdullah, younger brother of Ahmed not an hour ago,” replied a shocked Ayesha, dropping her doll, revolted by the sight of the filthy, lascivious pedophile Muhammad.
“Be that as it may, Allah has said I will also know you,” said Muhammad with an expectant smile, the gleam of lust in his eyes.
“Why me?” asked Ayesha, looking to the Prophet with trepidation.
“Because Allah has said it and I am horny, let us lay down, that I may know you,” ordered Muhammad as he removed his robe, Ayesha’s mother shaking her head in helpless disgust and closing the door.

Surah 117: The Murderer

Bismillah:

Muhammad and his followers enjoyed many days away from Mecca at the oasis, home of his oafish brother in law, Abu Bakr, who was also Muslim.
Dining on roast jackal, vultures and snakes, their strength was renewed by the bounty Allah the moon-god provided: plentiful food for their bellies and plentiful sirens for their carnal pleasure.
Khalil was upset that the Prophet was an evil lecherous pedophile who had known a little girl, so he went to the home of Ayesha to speak with her father, Abu the oaf.
He made his way to the hovel, and knocked on the door.
Ayesha’s mother opened the door, frowning as she beheld another of Prophet Muhammad’s followers.
“Is life not bad enough, what are you here for, to rape my daughter, me, or one of my sons?” she inquired with disdain.
“Indeed not woman, I must speak with your husband, not you,” said Khalil, who as a good Muslim, looked down upon women as little more than objects of pleasure, or dogs to be beaten into submission.
“My husband Abu is very drunk,” she related, lowering her gaze in respect.
Khalil entering the hovel, the oaf Abu appeared from a side room holding a wine bottle, and slurred, “What do want here, follower of the Prophet?”
“I must speak with you regarding your little daughter Ayesha,” answered Khalil.
“What about her?” asked Abu, blinking his eyes and trying to focus on the man.
“The Prophet came unto her in her room a fortnight ago; do you not know?” asked Khalil.
“He has come unto her many times since, she is his wife,” replied the unconcerned oaf.
“His wife you say - you permitted it?” asked Khalil, stunned by the revelation.
“Of course; he has come unto one of my nephews too, Muhammad is a pederast, it is the will of Allah,” declared a shrugging Abu.
“He’s raping our child you drunken bastard!” exclaimed a tearful Umm, looking to Khalil.
Abu smote her across the face, admonishing, “Take care woman, speak not ill of Prophet Muhammad, it is the will of Allah. The Prophet first knew Ayesha in a dream, when Gabriel showed her to him, uncovering her body for him to see.”
“That’s really sick, she’s only six years old,” observed Khalil.
“Better for the great Prophet to know her than one of the infidels,” declared a smiling Abu.
“Prophet my ass, Muhammad is a depraved monster possessed of a demon; how could permit such a thing, you are her father!” exclaimed Khalil in utter disgust.
“Yes I am, and the Prophet says I will know her too,” confessed Abu, contemplating the odd thought of having sex with his own daughter.
Umm burst into tears and sobbed, throwing herself to the floor upon hearing Abu’s repugnant words.
A fearful Khalil fled the hovel, not knowing what to think; realizing Muhammad and his brother in law Abu were wicked licentious perverts and vicious rapers of children, possessed of capricious and malevolent demons.
Later, Abu spoke with the Prophet while they entered a brothel together. He told him of the strange encounter with Khalil.
Khalil’s an idiot, he takes Islam much too seriously,” replied Muhammad, looking to his oafish brother in law.
“It is a bad omen Prophet, Khalil woefully disdains your marriage to Ayesha, and disdains that I am to know her too,” declared Abu, even he feeling deep down that such a liaison was distasteful, but knowing it was the unalterable will of Allah, the moon god.
“It is the will of Allah for you to know your daughter, did not Lot of Sodom know his daughters in the cave?” asked a slurring Muhammad, quite drunk, leaning against a wall to steady himself.
“Yes Prophet, he did,” answered Abu with firm resolve.
“Indeed, it was and is Allah’s will,” replied Muhammad, picking a flea from his beard and crushing it between his fingernails, “As for our problem, I will have a dream tonight, and Allah will order me to kill Khalil.”
“He will?” asked Abu, putting a hand to his chin in confusion, “But I thought the Perfect, Most Merciful Pig Allah never revealed his intentions until you had a dream.”
“No matter oaf, he is making his will known to me by making me drink strong wine on this day,” said a quickly lying Muhammad, holding up a bottle.
“Don’t you drink strong wine everyday?” asked Abu.
“Not as strong as this stuff,” replied the Prophet with a broad smile, “It has hashish oil in it; let us partake of a pair of this brothel’s women and enjoy wine together.”
As Muhammad and Abu descended into more revelry and debauchery, a troubled Khalil approached another of the Prophet’s followers, the one with rotten teeth. Telling him of his woes, he awaited the reply.
“Who cares what he does, have vulture and some wine,” said the man, tearing a leg from a roasted, maggot-ridden carcass and offering it to Khalil.
“You don’t care that Muhammad is a deranged pervert who has sex with little children?” asked Khalil, taking the leg.
“Hell no, I’m only here for the food, I was starving in the alleys of Mecca before I met Muhammad,” replied the rotten toothed man, grabbing more vulture flesh and a wine bottle.
“Oh,” answered a defeated Khalil, taking a bite from the leg and reaching for wine.
Late evening came, with Khalil and the other followers drunk and passed out in their tent.
Muhammad and Abu awoke at the brothel after midnight, rested and refreshed.
“What are we to do about Khalil?” asked Abu as they left via a side door, avoiding an encounter with the brothel’s madam, to whom they owed money.
“Leave that to me oaf,” answered the Prophet, holding up a hand, “In my dream Allah told me how to deal with him.”
Muhammad headed down the street and stealthily entered the tent of his followers, intent on taking Khalil’s life. Abu Bakr followed him through the entrance, looking about for possible witnesses.
Holding an oiled leather garrote, the smiling Prophet mercilessly strangled the sleeping Khalil, knowing in his heart that it was the will of Allah.
The helpless follower struggled defiantly as a determined Muhammad gritted his teeth and pulled the garrote tighter, crushing Khalil’s windpipe, the Prophet letting out foul gas from his posterior due to the exertion. The struggling ceased; he and Abu then quietly removed the body from the tent and carried it into the desert.
“That takes care of that problem,” declared a satisfied Muhammad as he pocketed the garrote, he and Abu making their way to his hovel so he could know his young wife Ayesha again.
“When will I know her Prophet?” inquired Abu in the lamplit hovel, looking to his daughter’s room.
“Very soon, Allah has said it, go know your wife Umm for now, oaf,” suggested Muhammad with a smile, opening the door to Ayesha’s room.

Surah 118: The Liar

Bismillah:

Time passed, and a strengthened Muhammad and his followers left the fertile oasis. The Prophet was joined by his young wife Ayesha and her father, oaf Abu, who left the remainder of his family stranded at the oasis, his wife Umm dying of grief shortly afterward.
Not one of the party dared question the vanishing of Khalil, some fearing that they too would vanish, perhaps due to Allah’s will or worse.
Muhammad told his followers that Khalil was an evil infidel, and had fled because he had coveted Ayesha, the child looking to her husband the Prophet, she and her father knowing he was not telling the truth.
“That is not true my father, Khalil only came to tell you of the Prophet knowing me,” Ayesha whispered, she and Abu standing only a few cubits from Muhammad.
“Take care in what you utter among others child, some things are better kept to oneself,” answered Abu quietly, not half the oaf the Prophet thought he was.
The rotten toothed man was listening intently; he had watched from the shadows while a smiling Muhammad strangled Khalil, but wisely kept this knowledge to himself, vowing to flee the group at the earliest opportunity.
Abu Bakr, fulfilling the will of Allah, came unto his daughter Ayesha over several evenings in a tent at the beckoning of the Holy Prophet, oddly finding her favors more satisfying than those of his wife.
Feeling strange from the experience of knowing his own daughter, a troubled Abu sought wise Muhammad’s advice.
“It was the will of Allah,” declared the debauched Muhammad, drunk on strong wine, “Allah has also revealed it is you which will sire her firstborn in her twelfth year; her incestuous bastard child Fatimah.”
“I will?” asked Abu, incredulous that he would be siring a child by his own daughter.
“Yes,” replied the Prophet, removing his filthy robe, “But first I must satisfy my carnal urges, by indulging in her favors myself.”
Prophet Muhammad entered the tent and came unto the young Ayesha, who complained that she was sore from knowing her father three times in one day.
Striking her across the face, Muhammad admonished, “Keep your mouth shut wife and be thankful to Allah that only I and your father are knowing you.”
“Yes Holy Prophet,” Ayesha replied, closing her eyes and wincing in pain as Muhammad again knew her.
Arriving in Medina the following week, the Muslims found friends in this city, delighting in drunken revelry and the favors of veiled, tempting harlots with dark eyes.
A lecherous Muhammad, Ayesha and his brother in law Abu took up residence at a fine brothel, the Prophet and the oaf sampling the offerings over many weeks, finding that Medina had the finest of all harlots in the land.
Many residents of Medina found that Islam was a faith that appealed to them, Allah’s unalterable will moving the people, they abandoning their staid ways, joining with Prophet Muhammad in idleness, licentious revelry and drunkenness.
Abu later visited the Prophet in his tent, informing him of dreadful news that Medina was host to a band of Jews.
“Jews you say, the people of the book,” answered Muhammad, “They are bitter enemies of Allah and Islam; we will not suffer such people to live in our midst.”
“But there are 40 score or more of them in the city Prophet, do the warriors of Allah have the numbers to defeat them?” asked Abu.
“Of course oaf,” declared the evil Muhammad, “We shall wait until the dark of night, prowling by stealth, and then cut their throats as they slumber; Allah has willed it.”
Listening in the shadows, the rotten toothed man determined it was time for him to flee. Regardless of the free food, he wanted no part of a group of vicious, skulking cowards who would slaughter people as they slept.
Allah’s will was fulfilled on the next night, 40 score Jews meeting their end at the hands of the deranged, murderous pedophile Muhammad and his obedient Muslims.

Surah 119: The Thief

Bismillah:

A fortnight passed, with many of the remaining people of Medina embracing Islam, and others fleeing for their lives, with the exception of a wealthy merchant named Sabri and his family.
Sabri vexed the followers with his words that Prophet Muhammad was little more than a drunken liar, murderer, and wanton sexual pervert; a wicked, lascivious monster and pedophile who kept the company of prostitutes, drunks and the slothful.
In another dream, the Holy Prophet learned that the vexing merchant had to be silenced, and that he had been chosen by Allah to murder him.
Telling Abu of his dream, he and Abu plotted the murder of Sabri the merchant. After enjoying strong wine together, they headed to his home on a dark late evening, let in by a lovely servant girl.
Muhammad and the oaf Abu observed the opulence of his residence; Sabri dressed in a fine silk robe with a silk turban, seven rings of gold and silver on his fingers.
His wife and the lovely servant girl brought food and a carafe of wine for her husband, they disdainfully looking upon the filthy, debauched Prophet and his henchman Abu.
“Why will you not submit to Islam, it is the will of Allah,” declared the evil Muhammad, looking to Sabri, looking for the chance to end his life.
“The will of Allah my ass, you Muhammad are a murderous debauched lecher and raper of children. Your loathsome followers feed on the rancid flesh of vermin instead of fine pork roasts, and defile all that they touch,” declared a disgusted Sabri, noting that the Prophet was drunk, dressed in a filthy tattered robe, with his unkempt hair and long beard matted with dirt.
“I consume the flesh of vermin too, Great Allah is a Holy, Merciful Pig, it is not halal to dine on the sacred flesh of his younger brothers,” said Muhammad with a finger in the air, Abu nodding in agreement.
“No, it is you who are a pig, you deranged cretin possessed of a vile demon,” retorted Sabri, looking upon the Prophet with hatred in his eyes.
“Those who do not submit to the will of Allah will suffer dire consequences,” threatened Abu, looking about for anyone who would dare stop them. Observing only two women in the house, he smiled, knowing that the will of Allah was about to be fulfilled.
Sabri paused, staring at the Prophet and Abu in contempt, hoping he could in some way persuade them to leave the city, noting that business had fallen off to practically nothing since the arrival of the Muslims.
“Look, if I give you money, will you and yours flee Medina and never return?” asked Sabri with folded hands, hoping he could encourage them to leave with a payment of fine gold.
“I can’t leave,” declared a smiling Muhammad, “I am serving Great Allah, the Most Merciful Pig.”
Sabri, confused for a moment, replied, “But I thought Allah was the moon goddess of Mecca.”
“Whatever,” retorted a shrugging, uncaring Muhammad while picking his nose, he knowing that Allah didn’t exist anyway.
“You are destroying Medina with your vile harlotry and wicked ways!” exclaimed Sabri.
The Prophet laughed, and replied, “Indeed not, Allah is guiding my hand in this and all my actions, providing me and my followers with what we desire: food, fine drink and the company of willing sirens, like your lovely servant girl back there.”
“My servant girl is betrothed to a good man in Mecca, you will not speak ill of her, nor will you covet her favors,” declared Sabri, noting Muhammad leering through an open door, ogling the girl and his wife.
“I will do as I wish,” retorted the evil Muhammad with another laugh, reaching into his tattered, filthy robe and producing the garrote, “I covet the favors of your servant girl, and will take her to my bed for a concubine on this night. Those such as you will not stop the will of Allah or his Messenger.”
Abu rose while the Prophet was speaking and smote Sabri upon the face with a closed fist, knocking the silk turban from his head. Muhammad descended upon him like a viper, pulling the garrote tightly around his throat, strangling him in his chair while his wife and servant girl screamed.
“Be silent women, it is the will of Allah!” Muhammad yelled through gritted teeth as he took the life of Sabri. Oaf Abu moved into the room and beat them into submission while a struggling Sabri kicked the wine carafe from the table, it shattering on the floor.
Sabri’s life vanquished, Prophet Muhammad exhaled loudly and let the lifeless body tumble to the floor.
The trembling women remained silent as Abu returned to the Prophet with them.
“Where is your money?” asked a greedy Abu of Sabri’s wife.
“A box of gold and silver is in our bedroom,” answered his tearful wife, almost fainting from Abu’s foul breath.
“I’ll get it,” volunteered a smiling Muhammad, pulling the garrote from the body, “Get the rings from his fingers oaf.”
The Prophet returned with a box of glittering coins, pleased that Allah had provided such bounty for his followers.
“I can’t get the last ring off,” complained Abu, having pocketed six others.
“Cut off his finger to get it, and take his robe and turban too,” ordered Muhammad, determined not to leave one valuable item in the house.
Abu obeyed, reaching for a knife on the table, slicing off the finger and pulling the ring from it.
Arriving at the brothel, the Prophet celebrated his good fortune by knowing Sabri’s wife and the servant girl, annulling the widow’s marriage and the girl’s betrothal in the eyes of Allah.
Later that evening Abu was given Sabri’s widow for a concubine, as he had grown weary of Ayesha’s favors, also needing an able slave to cook and serve him.
Having to beat her before he knew her, Abu thanked Allah and Muhammad for the welcome gift of Sabri’s wife.

Surah 120: The Hypocrite

Bismillah:

More time passed, with some of Muhammad’s followers finding the Prophet’s actions in Medina going against everything he had preached in Mecca, seeing him as Khalil, the rotten toothed man, and the merchant Sabri had seen him: an evil, debauched rapist, pedophile, liar, and murderer.
These and other apostate followers were quickly slaughtered as infidels, fulfilling the will of Allah; a smiling Muhammad strangling many of them as they slept.
Even Abu began to think that Muhammad’s wanton depravity may have been going too far when he encountered him in a tent knowing several young Jewish boys that had been taken captive.
“Prophet, some of the followers are complaining that you are denying them participation in the bounty given us by Allah, and that you are also practicing strange acts that Allah has forbidden to others,” related Abu, frowning at the displeasing thought of Muhammad knowing little boys.
“They want some of the gold, right oaf?” asked a drunken Muhammad, dressed in Sabri’s silk robe and turban, seven rings of gold and silver upon his greasy fingers, the fine garb growing filthier with each passing day.
“That, and some of them would also like to have some of the girls and boys for concubines,” answered Abu.
“They cannot have the little boys, Allah has given them to me for my carnal pleasure,” declared the lascivious Prophet, “As for the little girls, give them to the followers as wives, so that their carnal desires can be sated; it is the will of Allah.”
“Others say that you don’t practice what you have preached,” added a fidgeting Abu, hoping not to arouse Muhammad’s maniacal wrath.
“I’m only the messenger, Allah’s revelations don’t apply to me,” retorted Muhammad, releasing a tearful Jewish boy from his carnal embrace.
“What about me?” asked Abu.
“They don’t apply to you either oaf; would you like a lovely little boy for your carnal pleasure?” slurred the depraved sodomite Muhammad, lustfully leering at another boy he had chosen next to debauch.
“No, I find not that boys appeal to me,” answered Abu quietly, though he was a lecherous pedophile and incestuous pervert, he had no desire to sodomize little boys.
“Suit yourself oaf, more for me to enjoy,” answered the Prophet with a chuckle, undressing another captive boy, returning to his lecherous pederasty as Abu left the tent.
The city of Medina had been taken completely by the conquering Muslims, they reveling in their murderous victory over the infidels and Jews.
In another dream, it was revealed to Muhammad by Allah that they were to attack and conquer the city of Mecca. They were to subdue it and convert the inhabitants there to Islam, after which the Prophet was to take a pagan shrine called the Kaaba and defile it in the name of Allah.
“In Mecca there is glittering plunder, fine gold to steal, and many women to be taken for concubines,” declared the Prophet, “Allah has said to have faith in him and we will not fail; are you with me, warriors for Islam?”
The devoted followers answered, shouting in unison: There is no god but Allah the Pig, and Muhammad is his prophet!”
“We will need weapons to defeat them,” Abu observed, looking to the Holy Prophet.
“Easily done oaf,” replied an unconcerned Muhammad, ordering several henchmen to plunder the city of metal so weapons could be quickly fashioned.
Bronze implements were seized from every home; plowshares were heated and beaten into fine scimitars for the devoted followers.
As his followers labored over hot forges, Muhammad gave a sermon, declaring that vengeance, blood and death would rain down upon Mecca in the name of Allah.
The work completed over several days, a feast was held by the warriors of Islam to further strengthen them for the long journey; the flesh of rats, snakes, vultures and jackals gracing their tables. The hungry Prophet had a willing siren prepare his favorite of all dishes, fat dung beetles boiled in seasoned vulture broth.
“We should give Allah our thanks for the bounty he has provided,” declared Muhammad, seated at the head of his table beside Abu, crushing the hard shell of a dung beetle between his filthy brown teeth.
All bowed their heads in prayer, thanking Allah for the food he had provided.
“Would you like to enjoy a tasty dung beetle oaf?” asked the Prophet, turning to his brother in law, offering one to him.
“No thanks,” replied a nauseated Abu, choking down a plateful of greasy rat flesh.
Washing the unseemly morsels down with strong wine, Muhammad and his followers filled their bellies with the bitter flesh of vermin and then enjoyed the welcome favors of tempting, veiled harlots with dark eyes.
The Muslims, their women and their captives set out for Mecca on the following week, determined to exact Allah’s revenge on the people who dwelt there.
“There are many able men in Mecca, much more than we have,” observed Abu, realizing their numbers were wanting when compared to the teeming hordes of infidels occupying Mecca.
“Allah will watch over us oaf,” replied Muhammad, a sharp scimitar on his hip, he unsure as to what the outcome would be, but keeping this from the others and preparing for the worst.
“There aren’t enough of us Prophet – how will we win?” asked Abu with his arms in the air, looking at their limited numbers, no more than 50 score of able men in the service of Allah.
“Great Allah has said it, they in Mecca will embrace Islam or die for resisting his will,” the vengeful Prophet declared as Medina disappeared behind them in the distance.
A thoughtful Abu wondered why Allah would wish his followers to attack a fortified city where they were outnumbered, and also as to why Allah would have chosen a debauched murderer and licentious pervert for his Prophet.
“Oh well, it is the will of Allah,” agreed a sardonic Abu, much too committed to the deranged Prophet and Islam to back out, checking for the scimitar on his hip.

Surah 121: The Coward

Bismillah:

Returning to the oasis to gather strength before attacking Mecca, Muhammad and his followers again feasted on the bitter flesh of vermin and partook of the favors of eager women, the depraved Prophet coming unto the veiled, bare breasted Nubian harlot Sheba.
Oaf Abu learned that his wife Umm had died, Muhammad stating to him over strong wine that it was Allah’s will.
A grieving Abu came unto his new wife, the widow of Sabri, and also knew his daughter Ayesha, fulfilling the will of Allah the Pig.
The Holy Prophet also lusted for Abu’s bride, demanding that he be permitted to lay with her again.
A shrugging Abu handed her over, an angry Muhammad having to beat the stiff-necked infidel woman once again before he knew her.
“You evil murderous beast!” she screamed in tears as Muhammad was knowing her, “May the gods of my fathers destroy you and all you have wrought!”
“How dare you attempt to curse me or Allah,” grunted the Prophet as he reached orgasm, his fetid breath causing her to heave, “Take care woman, or I will expose you as the sorceress you are, giving you over to be stoned by my devoted followers.”
“Better to be dead than to endure your vile attentions again,” Abu’s wife retorted as the Prophet rose from her bed.
“Bitch,” Muhammad muttered as he left Abu’s tent, adjusting his filthy silk turban.
Leaving the oasis on the third day, the devoted Muslims resumed their journey to Mecca, Abu still troubled about their limited numbers and telling the Holy Prophet of his doubts.
“Don’t worry oaf, we will remain behind while the first wave of our brothers besiege and subdue the infidels in Mecca,” Muhammad declared in a low tone of voice, Ayesha looking up to him and frowning.
“Do you have a problem with that wife?” asked Muhammad, strangely controlling his compulsion to beat her for daring to disagree with Allah’s unalterable will.
Ayesha remained silent and looked to the ground, Abu answering, “I thought we would lead them in battle.”
“No, we are to remain behind and observe the followers take the city, it is the will of Allah,” replied Muhammad, he filled with doubts and preferring to watch from afar, as the strong hashish he had eaten in Medina had worn off long ago.
Arriving outside the city walls under cover of night, the Muslims prepared for battle in the only way they knew: skulking by stealth and murdering defenseless people while they slept.
As a full moon rose, a vanguard of devoted followers scaled the city walls, only to be discovered and cut down by the defenders of Mecca.
“Attack in the name of Allah!” shouted Muhammad while retreating to a bluff with Abu, his wives and several trusted followers, the Meccans opening the city gates to meet the glorious warriors of Allah in battle.
Seeing the Holy Prophet on the bluff by moonlight, this sight strengthened the attacking Muslims.
“The battle is not going very well,” observed Abu as the moon rose higher, watching the Muslim army being wiped out.
“Yes, Allah is displeased that our faith was not strong enough,” replied a strangely detached Muhammad, staring from the bluff at the carnage outside the walls of Mecca.
“That, or we didn’t have enough men, I told you,” retorted Abu, watching several followers being hacked to death by the defenders.
“That is possible oaf,” admitted Muhammad, Abu frowning at the reply.
“What do you plan to do to save your followers Prophet?” asked Ayesha.
“Nothing, it is Allah’s will,” replied Muhammad with a shrug, still watching the battle.
Abu’s frown grew into anger as he watched a smiling Muhammad delight in the butchery of his followers.
“You’ve lost at least 30 score since the moon rose, do you intend to stay until we are slaughtered too?” asked Abu’s wife.
“How dare you speak to me unless spoken to!” exclaimed the Prophet, preparing to smite her across the face.
“My good wife Fahimah makes a wise observation,” declared Abu, using her given name for the first time, grasping Muhammad’s forearm, preventing him from striking the widow.
Pulling away from Abu, the Prophet paused and replied, “It’s time for us to leave oaf, we shall retreat to the oasis to pray and fast.”
A defeated Muhammad and his trusted followers left the bluff and headed back toward the oasis in the moonlight. Looking over his shoulder, the Prophet feared that vengeful Meccans might pursue them.
“Let us make haste,” declared Muhammad, fearing for his life.
Several days passed as they retreated from Mecca, the remaining band of Muslims at last pausing for needed rest and making a camp in the desert.
The captive Fahimah had grown to respect her new husband Abu, as he had prevented the Holy Prophet from striking her outside the walls of Mecca. Making him a meal of jackal flesh soup, she presented it to him in his tent.
“Thank you woman,” Abu replied, taking an earthenware bowl and strong wine, she nodding and leaving him to eat.
As Abu was eating, a stir rose in the camp: a lone survivor of the battle having at last caught up to the followers. Putting down his bowl, he left the tent to find the survivor admonishing Muhammad.
“You coward,” he gasped, “You left us to die, have you no faith in your visions, or are they only lies coming from your vile mouth?”
The Prophet, drunk, answered, “I had a dream after the battle, it was Allah’s will that we were defeated, as it was his will that you survived. We lost because our faith in Allah was not strong enough.”
“You lied, telling us of easy plunder and women; there weren’t enough of us to take Mecca, 50 score died outside the gates for nothing!” the man exclaimed.
“No matter, have dung beetles and strong wine to renew your strength,” slurred Muhammad, picking fleas from his beard and flinging them into a small fire at his side.
The man, much too exhausted to argue further, gratefully took a plate of boiled dung beetles and a bottle of wine, trudging off from the deranged Prophet in disgust.
A shocked Abu observed this from the shadows and retreated to his tent. Such knowledge set heavy upon him, he meditating privately on the events.
Finishing his meal, he called for his wife Fahimah, she appearing before him.
I would hear your words wife on this matter: Muhammad preaches Islam, yet he does not follow the words of Allah.”
“He is your Prophet, you have sworn to serve him and Allah, my words are those of an infidel,” she answered respectfully.
“Still I would hear them, for there is wisdom in what you utter,” Abu replied.
Fahimah, still fearful of her brutal husband, yet bound by her personal honor to obey, told him of her thoughts on the Prophet and his actions.
“I care not what god he worships, but this demon in man’s guise is not a prophet of a clean desert god,” she began.
Abu looked at her as she continued, “He forces his followers to consume the flesh of vermin, delighting in their disgust. I truly believe him to be so perverted as to rape an infant - he has others carry out his murderous work while he has no courage to fight himself: you should draw a knife across your daughter Ayesha’s throat and my own to save us from the corruption of this man.”
Abu, oaf that he was, looked at her silently as she urged him to destroy the demon Prophet Muhammad, her wise words much harder to ignore than the screechings of his deceased wife Umm.

Surah 122: Muhammad the Merciless

Bismillah:

Abu Bakr, though he had listened to the wise words of his good wife Fahimah, found the prospects of strong wine, glittering plunder and wanton sexual pleasure outweighed her foreboding admonitions; he advising her to remain silent with regard to the Holy Prophet. For this request, he agreed that he would do his best to keep the depraved Muhammad from coming unto her.
The widow bowed her head respectfully, obeying her brutal husband.
Staying for a time to renew their strength at the oasis, Muhammad announced over a fine evening meal that they would return to Medina and take it in the name of Allah.
“That will be easy, considering we slaughtered everyone there who resisted us,” slurred a drunken Abu, he, the Prophet and their closest followers sitting at a long table. Veiled, tempting sirens with bare breasts served the bounty Allah had provided: the flesh of vultures, vipers, and lizards gracing the table.
“Good point oaf,” the deranged Muhammad agreed, seven rings of gold and silver on his fingers, his mouth stuffed with roast vulture. He swallowed, belched loudly and added, “Allah revealed to me in a dream that Medina will be our base, and from there we shall send brave warriors out to capture and recruit new followers.”
“More men will be needed after the debacle at Mecca,” replied Abu, looking to their limited numbers, choking down the bitter flesh of a fat, boiled viper with another gulp of wine.
The evil Prophet hid a smile at the sight of Abu’s nausea; watching from the head of the table in delight as his devoted followers dined on the flesh of vermin. “No matter about the others, they are dead and gone, it was the will of Allah,” declared an uncaring Muhammad, spitting a shard of fractured vulture bone to the table. Wiping greasy hands on his filthy silk robe, he grabbed a wine bottle and took a deep drink from it. “My belly still rumbles, bring tasty dung beetles to sate my gnawing hunger,” he ordered to a siren nearest him.
The lone survivor of the battle of Mecca, a swarthy Bedouin named Hamal, sat at the table, eating from an earthenware bowl of lizard soup, seasoned with ground peppercorns, onions and the juices of crushed scorpions. Having considered his low standing amongst his fellow Muslims for calling the Prophet a lying coward to his face, he wished to make amends by making himself useful to Muhammad. In return, he hoped the murderous Prophet would allow him to live, so he, like his debauched leader, would have the chance to kill, rape and plunder in the name of Pig Allah, the moon god.
Their meal finished, a lustful, drunken Muhammad initiated another sex orgy with the sirens, the warriors of Islam delighting in the licentious revelry: the debauched Prophet entering the tent of the Nubian harlot Sheba, relieving his carnal urges while held in her willing arms.
“Oh great Prophet, if it is the will of Allah, will you take me as one of your beloved wives to Medina?” asked Sheba, looking up to him with seductive, dark eyes as he continued to know her.
“Sure, as my young bride Ayesha often grows sore from my constant attentions,” grunted Muhammad, reaching orgasm for a third time, finding her the most satisfying harlot he had ever encountered.
“She is only six, most wait until they bleed first,” replied Sheba, the Prophet looking at her and frowning, both knowing that he was little more than a brutal, licentious pedophile who delighted in the rape of little girls and boys. Rising from the bed and closing his robe, he left her tent, adjusting his filthy silk turban.
Later, when others at the oasis were asleep or passed out from drunkenness, Muhammad, oaf Abu, and Hamal the Bedouin sat by a small fire, discussing plans for the recruitment of new followers. As the fire died down the Holy Prophet rose and walked into the shadows, releasing foul, pungent gas from his posterior while Abu and the Bedouin continued speaking.
“When will we be leaving for Medina?” asked Hamal, looking forward to visiting a comely harlot he had met there.
“Very soon, but you will not leave with us,” answered Abu, just as Muhammad leapt upon the hapless Bedouin with an oiled garrote. Pulling it tight around his throat with all his strength, he gritted his teeth and strangled the infidel to death, crushing his windpipe.
“That is what one gets for insulting Allah’s messenger,” declared the wicked Muhammad with a smile, allowing the corpse to drop to the ground. He pulled the garrote from Hamal’s throat and pocketed it in his filthy silk robe. Looking to Abu, he said, “Get over here and help me with the body oaf.”
Abu rose, the Prophet and his henchman carrying the remains of Hamal into the desert.
On the next day, Abu’s young nephew Abdullah appeared from his mother’s hovel at the border of the oasis. The adolescent appeared more of a man than a boy, his face having a short beard. Troubled, he asked his uncle as to why he had left his aunt Umm to die of grief, and why he had permitted the Holy Prophet to know him and his little cousin Ayesha. Not aware of Abu’s incestuous relationship with his daughter, he awaited the answer.
“My daughter Ayesha is his child bride, given unto him by Gabriel on high; alas, Muhammad is also a pederast, it was the will of Allah for him to know you,” a shrugging Abu replied, revolted at the thought of pederasty, not looking his nephew in the eyes.
“The will of Allah? Then Allah is an evil, insidious demon possessed of lust and caprice!” exclaimed Abdullah. “Your Prophet is a depraved sodomite sent from the depths of hell: grasping my crotch, he raped me after having a seizure, holding me down and declaring it was the will of Pig Allah!”
“I don’t know what to say, my nephew,” replied Abu, looking to the ground, knowing that Muhammad had truly hurt a beloved member of his family by raping him.
“I do,” said an angry Abdullah, tears welling in his eyes as he glared at his uncle, “I say be gone forever from our oasis, you, your demonic Prophet, your vile brethren, and never call me your nephew again!” Wiping away tears, he turned and trudged off, a saddened Abu watching as the young man disappeared into a date grove.
A fortnight passed; the Muslims returning to the nearly deserted city of Medina. The faithful inhabitants celebrated at the sight of Prophet Muhammad, joyously greeting his arrival with a spectacle of drunken revelry and lasciviousness. To the Prophet’s pleasure, he found the brothel was still open, the madam thankful to Allah that the brave warriors of Islam had returned unto their midst.
After indulging in the favors of comely, dark-eyed harlots for several days, Muhammad, his wives Ayesha and Sheba, together with his entourage of slavewomen and little Jewish boys, moved into the merchant Sabri’s house. Oaf Abu and wife Fahimah accompanied them, as the residence had more than enough room.
The body of Sabri, murdered by the Holy Prophet months earlier, lay rotting on the floor, a tearful Fahimah looking to the desiccated remains of her loving husband.
“Lamentations over infidels is forbidden, it is the will of Allah that such die for resisting him,” declared Muhammad, picking fat fleas from his beard and crushing them between his fingernails. Ordering other followers to remove the remains, they dragged the body from the house and dumped it in the street for all to see. Looking down, the Prophet smirked and kicked Sabri’s mummified severed finger through the open door.
“You soulless brigand, I am an infidel, why don’t you just kill me and put me out of my misery?” asked a defiant Fahimah, tears of grief wetting her cheeks.
The Holy Prophet raised an arm to smite her, Abu stepping between them. “You will not strike my good wife Fahimah, nor will you touch her in any other fashion from this point forward; there is much wisdom in her utterances regarding the likes of you,” warned Abu, staring at the Prophet with anger in his eyes.
Muhammad lowered his arm. Hiding his fear, he frowned at his muscular henchman. “Of course oaf,” he muttered, quickly turning and leaving the house. “Bastard,” he spat in defeat, heading to the brothel for the favors of harlots, strong wine, and hashish.
“Thank you husband, for what you have said and done for me,” said Fahimah.
“Don’t thank me, thank your gods,” replied a confused Abu, sweat on his brow, looking to the doorway that the madman Muhammad had passed through.
Charged by the words of the Holy Prophet, vanguards of devoted followers moved across the land surrounding Medina, converting scores to Islam in the name of Allah the Pig. Along the way, the warriors helped themselves to women, children and glittering plunder: slaughtering, torturing, raping and robbing as caravans, villages, towns and cities fell before them. Returning to Medina with fresh converts, the warriors rested, joining with their fellow Muslims in idleness, debauchery, licentious revelry and drunkenness.
Fearful of being exposed as the coward he was, Muhammad was determined to prove he was an able leader, chosen by Allah the moon god. Together with trusted group of followers, he, Abu and a band of vicious cutthroats entered a peaceful village near Medina in the middle of the night. A guard, subdued and beaten by a pair of the Prophet’s followers, asked Muhammad, “We have done you no harm stranger, what do you want here?”
“We want everything,” answered a smiling Muhammad. Pulling out his garrote, he strangled the defeated infidel to death, fulfilling the will of Allah.
Allah the Pig smiled upon the devoted followers; over time the Muslim army was strengthened to near invincibility, their numbers in Medina now amounting to over 300 score.

Surah 123: The Demon

Bismillah:

Growing restless at Medina, an insane Muhammad was determined exact his revenge upon the inhabitants of Mecca, so he could capture the city in the name of Islam and defile the Kaaba in the name of Pig Allah.
At his urging, followers created more weapons, seizing metal wherever it could be found, using captured infidels as slave laborers for the hot forges. Under the watchful eyes of brutal Muslim slavedrivers, cooking pots, utensils, plowshares and pruning hooks were heated and beaten into deadly scimitars for the warriors of Islam; those who refused to serve the warriors slaughtered, their bodies thrown into the fires of the forges.
The once peaceful Medina had been transformed from a prosperous trading center into a filthy lair of vicious freebooters, brigands, and evil cutthroats, hungry for plunder and blood. Allied with the warriors of Islam were assorted perverts: depraved pedophiles, brutal rapists, and lascivious sodomites: comprising a revolting den of amoral, lustful, lecherous monsters who gleefully destroyed entire towns, taking the virtue of women, girls and boys at will.
The Muslims were led by the corrupting force, Prophet Muhammad, chief pervert of Islam, otherwise known amongst his fellows as Abu al-Qasim Muhammad Ibn Abd Allah Ibn Abd al-Muttalib Ibn Hashim.
The Holy Prophet, knowing from his vivid, epileptic dreams that his actions were the will of Allah, returned to his licentious pederasty, knowing freshly captured Jewish boys during bouts of drunkenness. At other times, strong wine having caused vile fits of vomiting in the street just outside Sabri’s house, he amused himself by eating strong hashish, molesting his young wife Ayesha afterward.
Seeing the depravity of Muhammad, the Nubian siren Sheba felt shunned, left out of the wanton debauchery, watching in horror at his perverted, drunken orgies with little boys from a dark corner of Sabri’s house.
“You’re hurting me Prophet, I bleed!” cried a very young Jewish boy of eight as Muhammad knew him, his ample girth having ruptured the boy’s posterior.
“Vile Jew, how dare you question the will of Allah’s messenger,” retorted an angry Muhammad, slitting the boy’s throat to the spine with a sharp knife. He threw the body to the tiled floor of Sabri’s house; his filthy erection covered in blood and feces as it slipped from the murdered victim.
Shedding painful tears while viewing the murderous sodomy, the Nubian siren also witnessed the Prophet’s brutal fits of pedophilia with young Ayesha.
“You ingratious bitch, how dare you cry out as I indulge in your comely favors, my knowing you is the will of Allah!” grunted Muhammad, slapping the child, finally achieving orgasm within her.
“Yes Holy Prophet,” replied Ayesha in tears, having turned seven that day, wiping blood from her lower lip.
“These terrible actions of Muhammad are not the work of Allah, nor any other god; they are truly the evil ministrations of a vile and sadistic demon,” Sheba said to herself, withdrawing into the shadows.
Troubled, she approached Fahimah one evening and told her of her woes.
“You made your bed painted harlot, lay in it,” the widow retorted while cooking a pot of viper stew, not wanting to arouse the Prophet’s maniacal wrath. The house had grown filthy on the orders of Muhammad, it revealed to him in a dream that cleaning it was not the will of Allah.
“But what of you, how did you come to be here in this hell on Earth?” asked Sheba, surrounded by iridescent flies, filth and the butchered bones of vermin, not knowing how the upright woman had become part of a band of depraved brigands led by a demented, demon possessed maniac.
“Your disgusting Prophet murdered my good husband Sabri in this very house in which you stand. He took our money, raped me and my maidservant, and then gave me to his brother in law Abu as his wife.”
“As for Muhammad being my Prophet, I cannot be sure from what I have seen him do; how can you live such a life among such after what you’ve been through?”
“I am but a prisoner of uncivilized brutes: I cannot live such a life, except at the whim of my gods, perhaps one day I will simply die and be released from this dreadful fate,” said the widow, just as Abu walked in.
“I need food and wine,” the oaf announced, the harlot withdrawing from the room.
“Yes,” replied Fahimah, presenting him with a bottle and a warm earthenware bowl filled with snake flesh cooked in seasoned jackal broth.
“Viper stew – I can’t stand this shit!” exclaimed Abu, revolted at the boiled head of a snake floating in the bowl, an eye staring at him, surrounded by sliced onions, bits of scorpion shells, and withered parsnips.
“We have no more jackal, vulture, or rat meat, Muhammad has eaten it all, even to their rotting carcasses and the nauseating entrails; that and other vermin is all your Prophet will allow us to consume. I respectfully confess that I long for a fine pork roast to dine upon,” said his wife.
“That’s the truth; what did the Nubian harlot want here?” asked a resigned Abu, pulling the snakehead out and gnawing at it, pulling an occasional scale from his mouth with a thumb. Shuddering for a moment, he spat a tough, chewy eyeball to the floor.
“She came to complain to me about Muhammad shunning her comely favors, while knowing little Jewish boys,” answered Fahimah. “She also said the Prophet is knowing your young daughter too much; I have seen it, from the way she walks, she has grown very sore from his attentions.”
“Yes, he should come unto Ayesha only after a week or so has passed, as do I; for it is Allah’s will for me to know my daughter. Regarding the little boys, I fear that the Prophet’s wanton pederasty is both strange and revolting to me,” Abu replied, throwing the skull to the floor in utter disgust and drinking jackal broth from the bowl.
“Revolting; a filthy bitch in the throes of heat is not as vile as that depraved sodomite: he is an evil, lecherous, perverted freak who lusts after the flesh of men,” his wife declared, not telling of her revulsion to her incestuous husband knowing his daughter in their bed on many occasions.
“They’re not men, they are infidels, according to the Prophet, such does not matter in the eyes of Allah.”
“Flesh protrudes from their loins; as does it from the vile crotch of Muhammad. My gods frown upon such perverse acts, condemning those who engage in those practices to eternal damnation.”
“They do not yet spit their seed on the ground, as Onan did, they are nothing,” replied Abu, taking a gulp from the bottle.
“That has nothing to do with what I am telling you husband,” said the wise Fahimah, “Your Prophet knows little boys; it is wrong in the eyes of my gods: he is little more than a queer.”
Oaf Abu stared at her for a moment, knowing in his heart that she was correct. He returned to his meal, peeling snakeskin from a chunk of viper, the fat carcasses of boiled maggots infesting the meat. Looking at the maggots, a frowning Abu spat, “What the hell, I’m hungry,” stuffing the half-rotted flesh in his mouth and chasing it with wine.
After several weeks of preparation, the rebuilt Muslim army was ready to attack Mecca. Hordes of bloodthirsty Saracens were armed with sharp scimitars of brass and iron, their bellies filled and bodies nourished with the bitter flesh of vermin.
A drunken Muhammad, standing on the upper porch of Sabri’s house, gave a sermon, telling a crowd of devoted followers that pain, death and destruction would be visited upon the inhabitants of Mecca for resisting the will of Allah and his Prophet.
As Muhammad smiled in delight, the crowd shouted to the heavens in unison: “There is no god but Allah the Pig, and Muhammad is his Prophet!”
“He said that the last time,” Ayesha observed, Fahimah stifling a laugh while they stood only a few cubits from the vile Prophet.
Looking to her, Abu sighed. “Yes he did, but take care in what you utter child, for Muhammad has a great, malevolent power not of this world.”
“That’s because he is the Devil incarnate; may the gods of my fathers destroy that queer murderous bastard and all he has wrought,” retorted Fahimah.
“Do you beg for him to strike you down?” asked a frowning Abu.
“Perhaps I do, for death is better than this existence,” she answered bitterly, looking to the demon in man’s guise calling itself Muhammad, while feeling the life of an innocent unborn in her womb.

Surah 124: The Defiled

Bismillah:

Another fortnight passed, during which Muhammad and his devoted followers delighted in the vilest of debaucheries; the drunken Prophet leaving the bodies of several murdered Jewish boys in a dark annex of Sabri’s house; their posteriors ruptured and throats slit by him. The Nubian siren Sheba watched from the shadows, shedding tears for the slaughtered children.
Oaf Abu Bakr, fulfilling the will of Allah, again came unto his daughter Ayesha, she having recovered from the Prophet’s advances; a lecherous Muhammad occupied with knowing the remaining Jewish boys.
“Why is it that you know me, my father?” asked a satisfied Ayesha, sitting up on the bed after Abu had withdrawn from her and closed his robe.
“It is the will of Allah,” answered the oaf, looking upon her nude body. “Cover yourself from my sight child, have you no decency?”
“Do you not find me comely, or is the stiffness of your nether member only for my stepmother Fahimah?” asked Ayesha coyly, smiling and reclining before him.
“I do find you most comely, that is why you must cover yourself,” Abu ordered, finding his incestuous lust for her troubling.
“Yes my father,” replied an obedient Ayesha, pulling a sheet over herself.
Crossing the desert, the Muslim army left Medina and returned to the oasis to refresh themselves and rest among the palms, the inhabitants there vexed at the presence of the Holy Prophet. A defiant Mecca stood to the south, Muhammad knowing that with the help of Allah, the army of Islam would prevail over the infidels.
Abu learned that his nephew Abdullah had committed suicide by climbing a tall date palm and hurling himself from it, his broken body buried in the desert by his grieving father and brothers.
Troubled, he approached Muhammad and told him of his grief.
“Waste not time mourning over him oaf, it was the will of Allah,” said Muhammad blithely with a wave of a hand, drunk in his tent, dining on a bowl of boiled dung beetles smothered in thick vulture gravy.
The Nubian harlot Sheba looked to Abu in silence, sympathy in her eyes, recalling the Prophet’s licentious pederasty, having watched from in the shadows as he murdered those who dared to cry out in pain at his advances.
“That, or he couldn’t live with the idea of you having known him,” replied a frowning Abu, staring at the floor of the tent, sadness on his countenance.
“My knowing of him was a gift: how dare you question the will of Allah or his messenger!” exclaimed Muhammad, finishing his meal of dung beetles, his filthy fingers covered in cold vulture gravy.
“I don’t question the will of Allah, what I do question is the unrelenting stiffness of your nether member and your licentious pederasty, knowing little boys in his sight,” retorted Abu. “Are there not captive women in our camp that could satisfy your carnal urges?”
“Perhaps there are, but none are as tight as the lovely orifice of a little Jewish boy,” answered a smiling Muhammad.
“You are a hypocrite; you have repeatedly denied others of your inclination the ability to know them, stating that such actions are a sin in the eyes of Pig Allah,” said Abu boldly, revolted at the thought of pederasty.
Harlot Sheba silently wiped tears from her cheeks, she mourning for the young victims of Muhammad’s insatiable homosexual depravity.
“Hypocrite, no, for Allah’s revelations do not apply to me, nor do they to you,” answered the Prophet with another smile, wiping hands on his filthy silk robe. “You, oaf, along with myself, have sanction from Allah to do whatever we wish.”
“We do?”
“Yes,” answered Muhammad, pausing to squeeze foul matter from a swollen boil on his forehead, “It runs the gamut, from taking women in our beds, or lovely boys in our tents, or even to the knowing of pretty animals, indulging in their comely favors as it suits us.”
“The favors of beasts!” exclaimed Abu, “I always thought you were a twisted bastard, but the likes of us knowing animals?”
“A camel can be most attractive if one drinks enough wine: just look at their pretty eyes,” replied Muhammad, raising a bottle and drinking deeply from it.
“Such is bestiality!” exclaimed Abu in utter revulsion.
“No oaf, it is love; for Allah is love, and his Prophet is love: I spread Allah’s love by knowing those I desire; indulging in the favors of comely women, lovely boys, and pretty animals.”
“You are a depraved raper of young boys and a perverted molester of lowly beasts!” retorted Abu, looking the drunken Prophet in the eyes.
“Be that as it may, it is the will of Allah,” answered an uncaring Muhammad, growing visibly aroused at the thought of knowing pretty animals, a small, malnourished female camel with light brown eyes just outside his tent crossing his utterly deranged mind.
Pulling open his filthy robe, he reached for his erection and began masturbating, the harlot turning away in disgust.
“Have you no respect or decency, even in the eyes of your wives and fellows?” asked Abu, turning his head and covering his eyes.
“You needn’t look unless you desire to pleasure Allah’s Prophet, such is the will of him should you find my organ enticing.”
“I’m not queer, your offer is revolting!” exclaimed Abu, turning and heading from him.
“Very well, be gone with you, ugh, oaf,” grunted Muhammad, reaching orgasm as he finished the sentence, spitting his seed upon the ground and his filthy silk robe.
Leaving the tent, Abu chanced upon another of the Prophet’s followers, a dull-witted, nearly toothless man with a missing eye, known by his fellows as Sadi.
“Duh, where is the Prophet?” asked a staggering Sadi, he very drunk.
“He’s playing with himself in his tent over a camel, do you want to watch?” spat a disgusted Abu, pushing him out of the way.
Sadi tumbled to the ground, watching Abu trudge off into the darkness.
Returning to his tent, a troubled Abu told Fahimah of his terse words with Muhammad, and that the Holy Prophet was not only a pederaster, but also a vile practitioner of bestiality, knowing pretty animals in the sight of Allah.
“I told you he was little more than a depraved devil in man’s guise,” she replied, “Only such could lust for the loins of a beast. Muhammad is an evil madman desiring death for all who oppose him; you, husband, will come to blows with him, if not only to save your very life.”
“Do we have any food?” asked Abu, not commenting on her wise words.
“Yes, with the help of your daughter and the Nubian harlot, I caught and baked several rats for us this afternoon.”
“It beats viper flesh, bring some to me wife, with a full bottle,” ordered a frowning Abu, hoping that drunkenness would ease his contemptuous feelings for the Holy Prophet.

Surah 125: Mecca

Bismillah:

Having renewed their strength at the oasis, the vengeful warriors of Islam marched into the desert, heading south toward Mecca, killing any in their path that dared to resist. Along the way they recruited more converts: augmenting by several score a revolting cadre of amoral pirates, vicious brigands, twisted perverts, depraved pedophiles and lascivious sodomites, all hungry for glittering plunder, rivers of blood, and helpless victims.
Muhammad and his entourage followed, a string of captive Jewish boys in chains, having been thoroughly sodomised, trudged along with them, some forced to carry the Holy Prophet in an ornate litter. Fahimah and the Nubian siren Sheba, together with Muhammad’s child wife Ayesha, were carried in another litter behind the Prophet.
“What are we to do about that insane monster in man’s guise?” asked Sheba, her voice low in fear of the Prophet.
“Nothing harlot, we are but women, and haven’t the strength to subdue such as him,” whispered Fahimah, her belly showing she was with child, fearful the Jewish boys carrying them might hear and tell the evil Prophet of their words.
Oaf Abu, dismissing his utter disgust at the Holy Prophet’s revolting pederasty and bestiality for the moment, conversed with Muhammad in their litter as they were carried across the desolate waste.
“You told the followers that great Allah dwells in heaven; who else dwells there with him in his abode on high?” asked Abu, wiping sweat from his brow.
“His brothers,” answered the Prophet, drunk on strong wine. Covered in sweat, scratching at biting fleas in an armpit, he pulled his filthy, sweat stained silk turban from his head, revealing a head of lice ridden, matted hair drenched in perspiration. Frowning for a moment, he grunted, releasing foul gas from his posterior.
“What are their names?” asked a gagging Abu, pulling a curtain open for fresh air.
Muhammad, his head reeling from drunkenness, making up the story as he went along, replied, “Let’s see, Allah, Holiest of all Pigs, rules the heavens and the earth, sitting on his golden and bejeweled throne. His younger brothers, Hogallah the fat, Swineallah the wise, Boarallah the cyclops, and Porkallah the whiskered stand at his side, singing his praises for eternity.”
“You’re telling me heaven is filled with pigs?”
“Yes,” answered Muhammad plainly, his mind much too deranged to realise his utterances made no sense at all.
“If that is so, what use would they have for the likes of us or our worship, considering we are not pigs?” asked Abu, confused and doubtful of the words he was hearing.
“Upon our ascension to heaven, we too will become holy, purified Hogs, welcomed into paradise by Allah,” declared Muhammad, crushing a flea between his fingernails. “Once there, 72 devoted, eternally virgin Swinettes will tend our every desire, feeding us forever with ample morsels in golden troughs to sate our piggish gluttony. To slake our thirst, they will bring us welcome drink from rivers of wine, and will give us their comely favors upon demand.”
“Oh,” said Abu, wondering if reincarnation into a ravenous, depraved hog upon death was something worth looking forward to.
Later, the warriors of Islam came upon a laden caravan of peaceful merchants on a trade road, heading with their wares toward Mecca. Skulking behind sand dunes, Muhammad and his devoted followers watched, laying in wait as the caravan approached.
“What will we do?” asked Abu, looking to the deranged Prophet.
“Allah told me in a dream that we will take the caravan, kill the merchants who own it, and then use the caravan to enter Mecca and subdue the infidels,” answered Muhammad, delighted at their stumbling upon easy victims in the middle of the desert.
“That should prove easy with the numbers we have,” replied a smiling Abu, looking forward to glittering plunder and the favors of comely women.
Without warning, scimitars in hand, the army of Islam burst from the dunes like locusts, vicious cutthroats and pirates slaughtering the merch


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