SSB accused of faulty demographics

Ole Jørgen Anfindsen takes on Statistics Norway (SSB) and demographics researcher Lars Østby for grossly underestimating the growth of Norway's non-Western population. Østby's 1992 estimates implied a 3-4% yearly growth which turned out to be way off the mark - the actual growth was 8%. SSB expected linear growth, the actual growth was exponential. If the trend continues, Anfindsen believes, Norway will have a non-Western majority in 2050.

This is a hairy issue, and I expect the previous sentence alone has some people firing up their editors to write a jubilant/angry response. But please, read it through. I'll first summarize Anfindsen's accusations, then get to what I think it all means.

Thankfully, Anfindsen's claims are modular enough that we can evaluate them on their own terms, independent of our other views about immigration.

His first claim is straight-forward. SSB and Lars Østby made a false prediction in 1992:

We note that opponents to immigration build on an assumption that today's immigration will create a colored majority, or even a Muslim majority, "in the life time of our children", "in about a generation", or similar. .. We have, using ordinary demographic models, calculated how large this proportion may become in the future. .. Even with [assumptions leading to] the most extreme alternative, we will in 2050 have a proportion of 20% of the population with an origin in the third world, and then usually several generations removed. More probably trends give significantly lower numbers.

Østby's extreme alternative turned out to be extremely low:

Østby claims that only under extreme circumstances would 20% of the Norway's population in 2050 (ie. about 1 million people) have an origin in the third world, while it was far more likely that this proportion would be "significantly lower". But in 2004, SSB could tell us that we already then had about 250 000 immigrants from non-Western countries, (and that excludes third and later generation immigrants). ..

The growth in the number of non-Western immigrants from about 80 000 in 1990 to 249 000 in 2004 means that the average yearly growth for this group has been more than 8%. ..

If we look at the growth of Islam in Norway the numbers are even more dramatic. Østby said that Norway had about 20 000 Muslims in 1990, while the number has since grown to 80 000. This means that the number of Muslims in Norway over 15 years has quadrupled, meaning an annual growth of more than 9%. [Elsewhere Anfindsen claims 10.5%, which is more accurate] ..

Østby envisioned an increase in non-Western immigrants from about 80 000 in 1990 to maximum 1 000 000 in 2050. Calculating on this, we find that Østby expected that the average yearly growth in the non-Western immigrants for this period would be max 4%, but probably far lower, ie about 3%. ..

From 3% to 8%: The prediction was way off. Anfindsen speculates that Østby's estimate, based on an assumption of linear population growth, ignored the effect of Norway's lenient and much abused family reunion laws, which lead naturally to exponential growth. First you bring over your close family, (which of course is fine), and then you forcibly marry off your children to bring over your extended family as well, (which is bad for the children and bad for integration). If we take this practice into account, it is easy to understand why SSB got their estimate wrong.

Anfindsen believes SSB's underestimate was deliberate, which he provides no evidence for, and is beneath his level of argument. But if the the first 15 years of Østby's prognosis was wrong, the next 45 should be reevaluated as well. So why did Østby repeat his overall point in Aftenposten last December?

There is much attention focused on family and fertility patterns for immigrants. There is a popular conception that immigrants, and particularly those from Muslim countries, will gradually dominate by their numbers alone. There aren't yet any good estimates, but the insights we have about the demographic future indicates that a Muslim majority "in our time" is completely unrealistic. Even though immigrants from non-Western countries often marry within their own community, either in Norway or the country of origin, the age of their descendants when they marry has increased sufficiently since the parent generation that it will be interesting to see if there are parallel changes in the regional pattern. Even though many descendants marry at a young age, (at about the age ethnic Norwegians move in together), they have children at about the same age as others in Norway. The legacy from their parents is far more clear in their marriage pattern than in fertility.

Anfindsen calculates that, assuming exponential growth not radically different from the past 20-30 years, the Muslim population in Norway in 2050 will be, at 9% growth, 3.8 million; at 7%, 1.6 million; at 5%, 0,7 million; at 4%, 0,5 million; and at 3%, 0,3 million. By contrast, the average yearly growth between 1990 and 2004 was 10.5%. The same numbers for non-Western immigrants and their children are, at 7% growth, 5.3 million; at 5%, 2.3 million; at 4%, 1.5 million; and at 3%, 0,9 million. Again, the actual growth between 1990 and 2004 was 8%.

These aren't estimates, but they indicate the scale we're talking about. For Østby's 2004 claim to be true, that non-Westerners will not dominate Norway "in our time", there must be a drastic reduction in immigration and/or population growth. To imply dramatic change when Østby admits there are no reliable estimates to back him up is deceptive.

The term "non-Western immigrant", by the way, is meaningless in this discussion. "Immigrant" in official statistics is defined as being born abroad or having two parents who were born abroad, which is a way of making one word do two things at once, measure immigration and ethnicity, and both badly. You're not an immigrant if you're born in Norway, (so the numbers overestimates immigration). And you may still be a ethnically or culturally Pakistani without being an immigrant, (so the numbers underestimate ethnicity).

What's interesting is not immigration as such, but the size of the various ethnic groups, and the cultural distance between them. Are they able to get along? Will anti-liberal baggage be a threat to our political system? That's the important issue here, not immigration.

The other, larger problem with this debate is that beliefs about Norway's demographic future are so tightly coupled to beliefs about immigration. If you believe that immigrant cultures will make up a large part of Norway's population in the future, then you're firmly in the xenophobic/anti-Islamic camp, and if you believe they won't, then you're in the happy-happy-joy-joy camp. And vice versa. I hope those who have opinions about this are able to decouple these beliefs from each other. Don't criticize Anfindsen's numbers because you're in favor of immigration, and don't support them because you're against. Numbers are good or bad on their own merit.

My own view about this is that a genuine multi-ethnic society is not a problem, as long as all the major ethnic groups agree on the basic pillars of liberal democracy. A Norwegian citizen praying to Allah is not a problem. A Norwegian citizen exploiting his children to bring over his extended family from the home country is. A Mosque is not a problem, a Mosque being used by terrorist sympathizers is.

There are well-documented problems with integration in Norway, (as in integration with liberal democracy, not integration with brunost and hardingfele, which I consider irrelevant.) I'm not sure how extensive these problems are, but to the extent that they exist, we must challenge them so that we can make a multi-ethnic Norway work.

One reason we need it to work is that we need population growth to fend off the economic problems caused by our own aging population. If we can't solve this with immigration, we'd better start breeding like rabbits (which is unlikely), or undergo some drastic economic reform (which we'll only do at gunpoint).

Another reason we should try to make this work is that immigration is a contribution to the elimination of world poverty. At moderate levels that don't destroy our economy and political system, allowing foreigners in to take part in our standard of living is the right thing to do. World poverty remains to be conquered, but at least poverty will be alleviated for a few. We should consider opening our borders for worker immigration as well, at least from cultures we don't have integration problems with, and particularly for professions where we have a labor shortage. Again: Immigration is not the issue, ethnicity and cultural distance is.

Painting an inaccurate picture of Norway's demographic future is not the solution either way. Which is why I hope people are able to follow up on to the demographic issues raised by Anfindsen without automatically making it a pro/anti-immigration issue. Demographics and immigration are both interesting, connected issues, but they're still logically separate.




Comments

Farvel Norge, velkommen Norgistan


With the current trends, Norwegians will indeed be a minority in our own country within a couple of generations, and in the Oslo region already about 2030. The development has gone further in Sweden, which now seems to be teetering on the verge of collapse. I hope it's ok for Bjørn if I post a couple of links about this:

Is Swedish Democracy Collapsing?

Swedish Police "Unmotivated" to Fight Rising Crime

The Norwegian parliament this April passed legislation that will make ethnic Norwegians de facto second-rate citizens in our own country in certain areas. I am preparing a post about that issue in English, which should be ready by 17th of May, the Norwegian National Day.

Det nye, norske folkeopprøret


Når i helvete ble dette en platt, kvasi-intelligent, jippi-la-oss-bli-islamifisert-venstreblogg?

My own view about this is that a genuine multi-ethnic society is not a problem, as long as all the major ethnic groups agree on the basic pillars of liberal democracy. A Norwegian citizen praying to Allah is not a problem. A Norwegian citizen exploiting his children to bring over his extended family from the home country is. A Mosque is not a problem, a Mosque being used by terrorist sympathizers is.

Puh-lease. Slik utopisk tenkning er livsfarlig; på tide å åpne opp øynene og se på verden. Den totalitære ideologien islam betyr krig, konflikt og undertrykkelse. Overalt. Over-faen-i-helvete-alt. Dette er mitt siste besøk her. Jeg trenger ikke denne møkkasiden; jeg besøker Dagbladet når jeg ønsker å bli deprimert og oppgitt.


AB: Puh-lease. Slik utopisk tenkning er livsfarlig; på tide å åpne opp øynene og se på verden.

What's utopian about it? I haven't even claimed that it will work, only that I hope it does, and that we should do our best to make it work. What exactly that is, and how large the problem is, is something I've become less and less certain of over the years. The future is a murky place. I'm willing to listen to both sides - but please give me something better than "Islam is evil and will destroy us all!" Heard it, thought about it, discounted it. Mostly thanks to you and the other supporters of that theory, who demonstrate your single-mindedness every time we clash together about this.

Den totalitære ideologien islam betyr krig, konflikt og undertrykkelse. Overalt. Over-faen-i-helvete-alt.

And if you believe that you need to escape your own little feedback loop. It's like the words take a life of their own, separate from reality. What does it mean, for instance, for Islam to "mean war"? In practical, measurable terms. Did 1 billion Muslims wake up today thinking about how to conquer the world? 100 million? 1 million? How do you know?

Dette er mitt siste besøk her. Jeg trenger ikke denne møkkasiden; jeg besøker Dagbladet når jeg ønsker å bli deprimert og oppgitt.

And if you're the kind of reader who only reads blogs you agree with, you're not the kind of reader I want, so good riddance. You couldn't even be bothered to write in the language we use here.


OK. Here is a translation of my previous post:
------

When in hell did this blog become a dull, quasi-intelligent, "hurray, let's get islamized left wing"-blog?

My own view about this is that a genuine multi-ethnic society is not a problem, as long as all the major ethnic groups agree on the basic pillars of liberal democracy. A Norwegian citizen praying to Allah is not a problem. A Norwegian citizen exploiting his children to bring over his extended family from the home country is. A Mosque is not a problem, a Mosque being used by terrorist sympathizers is.

Puh-lease. Such utopian reasoning as above does indeed sound cosy and nice on paper, but is de facto extremely dangerous. You need to open your eyes and view the world as it is. Examine the past, look at the status quo and predict the future...

The totalitarian ideology named islam means war, conflict and oppression. Everywhere. Every-fucking-where. This is my last visit to this piece-of-shit-blog. I don't need it; I'll visit Dagbladet when I feel the desire to get depressed and dumbfounded.

------

I will close with some quick thoughts on your highly retarded answer:

[G]ive me something better than "Islam is evil and will destroy us all!" Heard it, thought about it, discounted it. Mostly thanks to you and the other supporters of that theory, who demonstrate your single-mindedness every time we clash together about this.

This yet another case where you demonstrate your pathetic intellect. Why the fucking hell should the personality of those who believe that islam is evil (which it is, of course - it is distilled evil), or any other idea for that matter, be of any significance with regards to the correctness of the theory per se? *shakes his head*

In practical, measurable terms. Did 1 billion Muslims wake up today thinking about how to conquer the world? 100 million? 1 million? How do you know?

What difference does it make? "[M]uslimske befolkninger [har] historisk set har vist ringe modstandskraft over for totalitære anskuelser, fordi de har manglet et kulturelt beredskab til at kunne begrænse og indkapsle imamernes og ulemas indflytelse. Årsagen er, at islam historisk set har ødelagt forudsætningene for, at der kan eksistere et civilt samfund". (From: I krigens hus, side 200-201)

Translate that yourself.

And if you're the kind of reader who only reads blogs you agree with, you're not the kind of reader I want, so good riddance. You couldn't even be bothered to write in the language we use here.

Oh, great conclusion. Listen: I do read blogs I disagree with, but only those I deem intelligent...


And only a few months ago Oyvind was telling me the family reunification policy was not a problem and not posing a risk of nations being swamped by non-Western colonialists. . .but then Oyvind also vigorously denied my contention that Dutch people are fleeing the Islamization of their country in the thousands.

Then I read that current Dutch emigration from their country is at a 50-year-high:

http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?channel_id=1&story_id=17699

Oyvind? You out there?


Take a look at VGD and witness the shameful manner in which Ole Jorgen is being treated:

http://vg.transact.no/Item.asp?GroupID=193&Group=Innvandring%2C+rasisme+og+flerkultur&ThreadID=819488&Thread=SSB+har+feilinformert+om+innvandring&Page=-2

As I see it, Ole Jorgen and HonestThinking.org have made one grave error in connection with this report: Assuming that the Norwegian people actually wanted the truth. They dont.


If we believe the Islamic population in Europe - third, fourth generation, even - can't adapt to liberal democracy, how can we expect democracy to take root in Afghanistan, Iraq or the rest of the Islamic world?

I do believe in democracy. I don't believe it will be painless or inevitable. But I do believe it will work and can work for all people and all cultures, given some time. I am certainly not ready to declare the world's one billion muslims a hopeless case and declare the ultimate war of civilisations.

Look back at Europe anno ca 1300 (maybe even 1700). Was there any reason to expect that Europe could develop real civilisation? I don't think so. Yet it happened. Christianity was more repressive in 1300 than Islam was. Now it's the other way around, and I don't think that has much to do with Islam, and a lot to do with how people live in those societies (those who argue Islam is the sole reason the Arab world is repressed, should compare to similarly repressed Christian communities in Africa).

Nothing is inevitable. History makes us. But we make history.


Jan: Three decades ago, textbooks talked about two examples of functioning, "multicultural" societies where Muslims lived in peace with others. Do you knwo which two countries? Lebanon and Yugoslavia. We all know how that went, don't we?

Muslim immigration to Europe is extremely dangerous, and may well have disastrous consequences. We see some of them already.


I should add that if Lars Østby has indeed hidden vital information to the public, his actions are bordering on treason. Of course, since the term "nation" doesn't exist in our happy, multicultural age there is obviously no such thing as betraying your nation, either. Sadly, his actions will thus have little consequences for him personally, but severe consequences for Norway as a country.


Who believes that democracy will take root in Afghanistan, Iraq or the rest of the islamic world? You and Cowboy-Bush? Well, I certainly do not. Let us not kid ourself: There will never be a real democracy in a single country with a significant islamic influence. At best, for short periods of time, we may see a population that votes in suspect elections for which islamic despot to rule over them - the slaves - in the name of allah. But democracies as we know them? Not a chance, and anyway, I am not willing to bet Norway and Europe on being wrong.

Are you willing to play with Norway and Europe at stake on being right, gambler-Jan?


Adrine - they will make a democracy which works for them. It won't be ours.

Europe is not American-style democracy, is it?

That's the beautiful thing, it's flexible. What's even better, after living under Islam dictated by neanderthals, the Afghans and Iranians don't want that version.

Talk about guts:

An Iranian Mullah Say Islam is Murder

Potkin Azarmeher

If this letter by the shiite cleric Hadi Ma'ssumi published on the iran-chabar site is true then this is just mega explosive:
http://www.iran-chabar.de/1384/02/20/masoomi840220.htm

The letter to Rafsanjani is written by a Karaj based cleric. He says in the letter that he is ill and near death, so presumably that is what has given him the extra ordinary courage needed to write this letter.

If this letter was from an exiled opposition, it would not have been so controversial but to read this sort of thing from a Shiite cleric is truly remarkable.

In the letter, the cleric Hadi Ma'ssumi starts from the beginning of Islam in Iran. How the religion was forced upon Iranians, how the invading Arabs raped the Iranian women, massacred the population, looted our wealth, tried to run the windmills with the blood of Iranians and how they burned all our books and destroyed so much of our knowledge.

He then starts scrutinising 26 years of Rafsanjani's unrelentless power. He reminds Rafsanjani of what went on in Iran's political prisons in the 80s. How young virgin girls were raped before their executions using Koranic justifications - virgin girls go to heaven no matter what, so young female political activists were raped to ensure they didn't go to heaven - how thousands suffered torture and the massacre of Iranian political prisoners in 1988....

- ----a quote from the letter follows---- --

"You know like I do what lies behind this religion (Islam), after all this crime carried out against Iranians.... Now for the sake of God tell the truth to the people that there is nothing in this religion but stupidity and ignorance, other than silly laws about what is considered clean and what is untouchable, what is allowed and what is not allowed, believe me that God and the people will then forgive you, although I know you are conscious enough NOT to believe in God!"


Susan:

Het is eigenlijk heel makelijk. What you call "fleeing the country because of Islamization" I call "moving to another country because of globalization" (in this case; the European Union is the facilitator, just as it is for - for instance - this immigrant. Of course one could discuss how easy it actually is, I have one or two things to say about Belgian bureaucracy, but hey).

Get a grip, Susan, if the Dutch are fleeing Islam, why the heck (!) are most of them going to Belgium and Germany? Have you visited Brussels lately, Susan? Have you been in Louvain or in Malines? Have you visited Germany? You might believe that Holland is full of paranoid freaks, and considering their mushroom picking laws the paranoia part might even be right. However, as the article you point to yourself points out, Dutch people are moving for "work reasons, to join a partner, tax benefits, cheaper housing".

And it is hardly a surprise that we see a top in European migration these days. The world is getting smaller, Susan. Painful, is it not?


SandyP:
"Europe is not American-style democracy, is it?"

America as in the USA? Or america as in Canada or Mexico, or even South-America?

The US is not a demoCracy, or was at least not intended to be by the founders of the union. It is a constitutional republic. These days it is turning more and more into a european style democracy, sidestepping its own constitution by redefining the meaning of the content or worse.


At the close of the Constitutional Convention, a woman asked Benjamin Franklin what type of government the Constitution was bringing into existence. Franklin replied, "A republic, if you can keep it."

It seems like they cannot..


AB: Why the fucking hell should the personality of those who believe that islam is evil (which it is, of course - it is distilled evil), or any other idea for that matter, be of any significance with regards to the correctness of the theory per se?

Personality is not an indicator as such, but ideological style is. Flame rhetorics against critics, for instance, is a bad sign. So is the identification of a billion people with evil. But I'm not disqualifying you only on meta-rhetorical grounds. This old debate keeps popping up from time to time, (see the July-October 2004 entries). I've heard everything there is to hear about how the Koran supposedly tells Muslims to be evil. But when it comes to showing that 1 billion Muslims actually agree with those interpretations, (which is all that matters), the arguments fall short.

What difference does it make?

I don't know, you tell me. You're the one with a theory about Islam, that it is "distilled evil". You tell me how we can put that theory to the test. Say we pick 1000 of the world's Muslims at random. What does your theory tell us about the psychology and motivations of these people? How large percentage will be found to hate non-Muslims, or be eager to conquer them? Or maybe you don't mean evil in any practical sense at all. Then tell me what do you do mean. Is it a metaphysical evil? A tragic abstract evil in the form of bad consequences of well-intended actions? I can continue guessing, or you can tell me.

I do read blogs I disagree with, but only those I deem intelligent...

Ah, ok then. You see, my "hurray, let's get islamized left-wing" style is deliberately intended to brainwash the unbelieving masses with lies about how friendly Islam is, to make the ultimate conquest of Norway in the name of Allah that much easier to carry out. And you know the worst part, I do it all for power - they've promised me a high-ranking position in the Norwegian branch of the global Caliphat. I thought I could fool you, but I see now that you're a smart, independent thinker, whose resolve and clarity of thought is impervious to my rhetorical voodoo.

One piece of advise though: Drop the swearing. "Fucking hell" doesn't look half as cool in an online discussion as it sounds in the movies.

Fjordman: Do you knwo which two countries? Lebanon and Yugoslavia. We all know how that went, don't we?

I don't know much about the Lebanese civil war, but surely you aren't blaming the Yugoslavian war on the Muslims?


Interesting comments indeed mr Bjørn Stærk. Let me start with the problems I see in Anfindsens analysis. The thing is that Lars Østby could not have foreseen a few things in the 1990s ... The way Anfindsen, and other people (and publically funded socalled thinktanks inclined to think the way he does) like to present things it sounds like the family reunion laws are the sole reason behind the increasing muslim population in Norway. This is just plain rubbish, to put it mildly.

What the discount is the effects of the Gulf war I, with Saddams repression of Iraqi Kurds and Shias. This lead to a massive influx of asylumseekers and refugees to Europe, and so also in Norway. Thereafter you have the turkish war against the kurds (gone on for years ... but seems like the 'islamists' have ended what the socialists and rightwing politicians in that country couldnt do for decades.) Again a number of them heading for safety in another country, the different wars in Africa, wich lead to massive immigration, and last but not least we had the ethnic cleansing in the balkan region (Bosnians, macedonias, kosovars and other muslim groups living in the area) in the 90s, and many of these came to Norway.

So the 'already established' Norwegian muslim groups have not increased that much, what have increased the muslim population is events in the world which I guess Lars Østby and other scientists had no way of predicting.

In 1975 there was not a single ethnic norwegian who was muslim, today this group consists of several hundred individuals. Could Anfindsen please take the time to calculate how long time it will take before every norwegian will be a muslim? *phew* the stupidity people show when using (and abusing) numbers is amazing.

Sandy P, let me give you an advice, dont hold your breath about the autencit of that letter.

And an endnote, while I do not agree with you alot of times Bjørn Stærk, I have to commend you for your effort to understand an issue, rather than take a torch and run with it ... keep it up!


Fjordman:

A short readup for the lebanon war:

http://www.nmhschool.org/tthornton/mehistorydatabase/civil_war_in_lebanon.htm


Sultan: Could Anfindsen please take the time to calculate how long time it will take before every norwegian will be a muslim? *phew* the stupidity people show when using (and abusing) numbers is amazing.

But Anfindsen specifically says that he's not making estimates, and that there is a limit to how far exponential growth can be projected into the future before becoming self-evidently ridiculous. The point is rather to set premises for a further discussion to operate on. For instance, if the growth from 1990 to 2004 was due to family reunions, then a continuation of the current family reunion will necessarily lead to a continuation of that growth. Which means that changing those laws is no longer only a matter of individual rights, (the right not to be forcibly married away vs the right to marry anyone you like), which is how everyone treats it, but also a matter of future demographics.

Your point about other causes for exponential growth is a good one, though. It's important to extract random and linear growth (refugees/asylum seekers) from the other projections.


"what have increased the muslim population is events in the world which I guess Lars Østby and other scientists had no way of predicting."


Nonsense. What war are Pakistanis fleeing from? They use Norway and Western nations as dumping ground for their population growth, as do many other Muslim countries.


"But when it comes to showing that 1 billion Muslims actually agree with those interpretations, (which is all that matters), the arguments fall short."

Is that really all that matters? Bjorn, didn't you read the quote from "I Krigens Hus"?


Yes you are right Bjørn, Anfindsen does not make estimates. But he knows very well that estimates will be made by people using him as a source, after all, I believe the man to be wrong, not stupid. :)


Fjordman, sorry dude, you are the one making no sense. I didnt say that all muslims, pakistani or others, are fleeing from a war. If you reread my post again you might get the point, afterall you seem to be able to make quite reasonable arguments.

The point, in very simple terms, is that an estimate, or a discussion that starts with the assumption that the growth in # of muslims in Norway can be read through the sheer #s alone is flawed in its very foundation. Nothing more, nothing less.


Anonymous: Is that really all that matters? Bjorn, didn't you read the quote from "I Krigens Hus"?

Depends on the theory. AB said that Islam is "distilled evil", which I have no idea how he expects me to test until he tells me, but I do know that that test must involve the actual beliefs and behavior of actual Muslims. You can't talk about Islam without talking about Muslims, (unless you're a Muslim yourself, in which case it becomes meaningful to separate "true" Islam from actual Muslim behavior.)

What that quote says is something different - that Islam lacks immunity against totalitarian ideas. That's a better stated hypothesis, but again, to test it we must look at the real world. How have Muslim societies traditionally behaved when faced with totalitarian movements? I'm not sure it's even meaningful to talk about totalitarianism before Hitler and Stalin, but I'm willing to listen to your evidence.


Sultan: I'm not willing to play Russian roulette with my own children and grandchildren about immigration. Countries such as Sweden, Holland and France have severe and very dangerous problems already now, and they are visible even in the Oslo region. Muslim immigration, or even uncontrolled immigration in general, is destroying this continent as we speak. It needs to stop. Now!


Oh, ch, getting technical, are we?

Fine.
Yes, I am aware of what Franklin said.

---

Oyvind, the Anglos are buying up Orlando and the surrounding area for 2nd homes/rentals. What does that say?

West Coast is booming, too, Asians.

Watch the $ for the next few months, should be very, very interesting, Buffet's placed a $21 BILLION bet against it using his and BH money. Gates has also bet against the $.

Hmmm, Oyvind, if people going where the jobs are, what's left behind? Canada has a net outflow to America, too, vis a vis (?)we and they moving across the border.

I read Malmo's getting interesting, too.


Let's have some fun, what if we argue Islam is a totalitarian idea?


Oyvind, I have many Dutch friends and correspondents and know full well that immigration is one reason why they are leaving. There are many Expatica stories which note that emigration agencies in Holland received a huge number of inquiries after the murder of Van Gogh.

Holland's democracy is gravely threatened when two duly elected officials are forced to live underground, one in a maximum-security prison, thanks to tolerant peaceful Islamic immigrants.

Arguing that this doesn't concern the indigenous
people is just nuts.

And the fleeing Dutch's top preferred destinations are not Belgium or Germany, but are
the Anglo-Saxon territories: Canada, US, Australia and New Zealand.

There are tons of articles about it if you care
to search. There was one very detailed one in
the Daily Telegraph a few months ago.

Oyvind, you were wrong about the family reunification program and are too vain and petty to admit it.

You are also wrong about Holland as well. If people are fleeing "globalization", well they probably mean the "globalization" of immigrants into their own rapidly Arabizing country.l


Susan: Don't expect any admission of mistakes from the likes of Øyvind. They will sit there and say there is nothing to worry about even if - or rather when - several major Europans cities burn due to immigration-induced tensions.


Here is a frightening post from Zacht Ei, a Dutch blogger, on the vicious beating of an American gay tourist at the hands of "Dutch" Moroccans:

http://www.zachtei.nl/2005/05/06/000721.html#reacties

And from the comments section, a lesbian woman from Belgium comments:

Sadly, both The Netherlands and Belgium appear to be locked in the same self-imposed spiral of collective, head-in-the-sand impotence.
A little while ago a girl friend and I (just good friends) went into the centre of Brussels for an Italian meal in what is considered to be the gay area of Brussels.
Whilst we were eating an arab appeared by the side window (in a narrow, little used passageway) and started exposing himself to us. We simply ignored it and after a while he came up closer to the window, mouthed "Putains!" and made throat-cutting gestures before he slunk off into the night.
The owner came up to us and apologised, saying that it was not the first time something like that had happened and that he could not involve the police as they had already threatened to put him on the next train back to Milan for making a complaint.
The number of times I am accosted by these people on the street is increasing and the police will not get involved: they seem to be frightened of the gangs of moroccans who treat any form of law or decency with total contempt.
Buy your chadors now, girls, while they are still cheap.

Samantha

Comments, Oyvind?


Further to the comments made by "Samantha" from Belgium, a warning to Oyvind and the other Islamoapologists who post on this site:

Hear it loud, hear it proud. I am a white Western feminist woman, mother of a white Western 6-year-old girl.

Hear it loud, hear it proud. I am not going to be a scarificial lamb for Western white male guilt. I am not giving up my sisters, myself, my daughter to be raped, sexually harassed and threatened in the manner of Samantha and her friend.

"Western women" are not Czechloslovakia. You will not be allowed to trade away my freedom, my rights, my well-being, nor those of my sisters, nor those of my daughter, nor those of any other Western woman, for the sake of assuaging your selfish white male liberal guilt.

And any gay people reading this blog should make the same damn statement. In case you haven't figured it out yet, Muslims are the new victim group, and you've been pushed down on the totem pole of victimization. You've been trumped in the eyes of people like Oyvind.


In short, Non-Western immigration is a feminist issue (although many so-called "feminists" haven't figured that out yet). And if our white male dominated society wants to import huge amounts of people from a retrograde, misogynist, woman-brutalizaing culture, don't forget who suffers the most: your daughters, your wives, your sisters, your mothers. You are sentencing us to a future of rape, sexual harassment, job, judicial and political discrimination, honor killings, and other horrors, which you are all too happy to turn your eyes away from.

Think!

Women



I am delighted to see that my VG article of 15 May, along with the accompanying article with various kinds of background information, is stirring up some serious discussion. Thus far, people seem primarily to focus on what, after the latest revision, are labeled sections 1A and 1B of the above mentioned accompanying article.

Section 1A provides clear evidence that SSB has issued flawed prognoses. These were based on linear rather than exponential growth in the population of immigrants and their descendants. Carefully note that “and their descendants” were included back in the early 1990s, but that SSB now only count first and second generation immigrants – all others are now considered Norwegian by definition.

However, Norway, presumably like the rest of Europe, had exponential growth in the number of immigrants and their descendants prior to 1990, and has continued to have so since. SSB was of course fully aware of this, but chose to disregard it. This would have to come back to haunt them sooner or later.

Now, some people, both in this blog and elsewhere, have made the point that a number of tragic events have taken place on the international scene over the last 15 years, and that SSB had no way of foreseeing them. I agree that this is a mitigating circumstance, and if I can get some more information about this, I will consider including this point in a future version of my background material.

One interesting question in this context is the following: what kind of growth in the population of immigrants and their descendants would Norway and Europe have experienced if not for said tragic events? At this time, I am unable to answer this question, but I feel relatively confident that SSB’s prognoses would still have been far off the mark without the influx of refugees fleeing from war and terror.

The reason for my confidence is that for more than 25 years now we have seen a systematic use of so-called “fetching marriages” (henteekteskap). This is thoroughly documented in the report: Human visas – a report from the front lines of Europe’s integration crisis (Norwegian version: Feminin integrering – utfordring i et fleretnisk samfunn, Kolofon/HRS, 2003), issued by Human Rights Service (www.rights.no).

It so happens that Human Rights Service will present a new and related report to the Norwegian Parliament and Government later this week (19 May), and their latest findings indicate that the use of fetching marriages remain stable or even increase as new generations of immigrants grow up.

This, taken together with the very high immigrant population growth rates of the last 20 to 30 years, has caused me to state that I find it hard to believe that the average growth rates are likely to fall beneath 5% per year in the period from now until 2050. I am not claiming that such a growth rate is beyond any reasonable doubt. However, I am claiming that anyone who feels that even a prediction of 5% growth (which is very low compared to current growth rates) is unreasonable, should produce convincing arguments as to exactly what factors are likely to bring the growth rates down to a level below 5%. To the best of my knowledge, neither SSB nor anyone else has advanced any such arguments at all.

Most probably this means that we should expect “business as usual”, and I have now done my best to point out that continued exponential growth for a few more decades is bound to have dramatic consequences indeed.

Ole Jørgen Anfindsen

PS: Carefully note that both Norwegian and English versions of my VG article, as well as the accompanying article (Norwegian only for now), and more, are available from www.honestthinking.org/ssb/.


Personality is not an indicator as such, but ideological style is. Flame rhetorics against critics, for instance, is a bad sign. So is the identification of a billion people with evil.

One would believe that someone who has a blog would be able to read and in fact comprehend what he or she reads. As far as Bjorn is concerned, this is clearly not the case, considering his answer to my previous post.

We are all aware of the sad state in which the Norwegian educational system finds itself, but as regards Bjorn, I really do not believe that we should blame any of Halden's schools...

I could ask Bjorn to quote me on saying that one billion muslims are evil, however, he cannot read or reason very well, so my chances of getting an answer worthy of my time are severely slim. Furthermore, I could attempt to stress the point which already is clear and obvious to normally intelligent people: That it is _islam_ that is evil, and not necessarily all of the followers of the mentioned distilled evil. It is self-evident that billions of muslims cannot be a homogeneous group.

And I could present the following comparision: Were all Germans born evil? Were they a homogeneous group? The answer: Of course not. Was and is nazism evil? The answer: Yes, of course.

However, and this is the important part: If one were to follow the retarded logic and way of thinking which Bjorn's reasoning is such a sad example of, the answer would be a: No. NO. N-fucking-O! (I don't expect Bjorn to grasp this point - and I am sure he will post a follow-up uttering his strongly felt disdain and hatred for nazism - but others will. Sadly, islamofascism sympathizer Bjorn himself is unable to grasp the implications of his retarded thoughs and ideas. So what else is new?)

Finally: Based what you wrote, Bjorn, it is clear that you dismiss the notion that islam is evil, because of the language, personality, et cetera of those who subscribe to the idea. You are one of those...

I don't know, you tell me. You're the one with a theory about Islam, that it is "distilled evil". You tell me how we can put that theory to the test. Say we pick 1000 of the world's Muslims at random. What does your theory tell us about the psychology and motivations of these people? How large percentage will be found to hate non-Muslims, or be eager to conquer them? Or maybe you don't mean evil in any practical sense at all. Then tell me what do you do mean. Is it a metaphysical evil? A tragic abstract evil in the form of bad consequences of well-intended actions? I can continue guessing, or you can tell me.

Considering the above, I must state that your level of stupidity has again peaked, and you know what? _That_ is impressive...

Again: If you could read as well as _comprehend_ what you are reading, which you cannot, you would have found the justification for my view in the excerpt from "Krigens Hus". It explains it all, is aligned with history and coincides with what is observed at present. You may of course disagree with the text, which I am sure you will, but in that case you need to argue why. Do not bother for my sake, though: It is clear that you lack the mental capabilites to discuss this matter. I suggest you get yourself a PlayStation in order to utilize your time on earth better and smarter - for us all - you worthless piece of shit.

****

I am hereby calling for a boycott of Bjørn Stærk. Why the hell are we _here_ discussing _his_ thoughts when there are so many truly great sites on the web? Ask yourself: Does this retarded bulwark of islamofascism and Eurabia deserve me as a reader? In many cases, the answer will indeed be yes, but hopefully, not in all cases...


Ole Jørgen: I am amazed you even got it published. Hardly any Norwegians are aware of the consequences of the new Discrmination law that was passed this April. The short version of my essay about it could be used as a newspaper essay, too, but I doubt anybody will print it.


"I am hereby calling for a boycott of Bjørn Stærk."


Well, then stop writing here! I think Bjørn is naive regarding Islam, but he allows a lot of dissenting views, more than most blogs I know. Even your personal insults. If you don't like it, use another blog. There are millions out there. Or make one of your own.


AB, you said earlier that "This is my last visit to this piece-of-shit-blog." and then you still continue to write here ... what kind of loser are you?


And btw, a happy 17th of May celebration to all, we could have been luckier with the weather, but oh well ...


Sweden is the culture test in real time. Did Sweden have the unfortunate bad luck to receive a higher percent of rock chucking palestinian type - arab Islamic people than the rest of the EU or Norway.?

Will the next generation of Swedish -Arabic muslims behave any differently than the current arab culture. Or is the muslim population in Sweden a true representation of the over-all middle eastern islamo-arab mind set.

I think the problem comes from Islamic-fascist cleric-Imam's who have been sent to the west after receiving radical training in countries like Syria, Iran and Saudi. These preachers of hate have one purpose, destabilize islamic immmigrant cultures in western liberal democracies.


AB, leaving your anger management issues aside for a moment, (entertaining though they are), it is difficult to argue with a vaguely stated theory. My goal so far has been to encourage you to phrase your "Islam is evil"-theory in a way that I can understand and verify. I know, I'm a moron, but I do the best I can, and I'd appreciate any help you can offer. Your quote is a good place to start. Maybe the authors of Krigens Hus weren't writing for an audience as intelligent as the one you're used to, for I understand their claim perfectly: Muslim culture lacks immunity from totalitarianism. Continuing on that, what examples of a Muslim culture turning to totalitarianism in the last 1400 years do you know of? What is your criteria for applying the label of totalitarianism? On what basis do you conclude that, faced with the choice between wealth and freedom, or totalitarian poverty, Muslims will inevitably choose totalitarianism? Which factors enter into this, (is there anything we can do to decrease the likelihood)?

The German analogy is interesting. A better match than Islam=Nazism is that Islam is like the German culture, and Islamism is like Nazism, an off-shoot of that culture that has strong enough potential appeal to be a threat to both its own people and the rest of the world. There's no question that German culture before Hitler was deeply flawed, and that these flaws laid the groundwork for the Nazi takeover. But the flaws were not inherent and permanent, they could be fixed by fighting and discrediting Nazism.

The analogy is thin, but the point it illustrates is not: Most people are not ideologists. They just want to live and get by. Ideologies - especially radical ones - are for the educated elites. Islam is a religion for the masses, Islamism an ideology for the elites. Muslim culture is flawed, but it's the Islamists who want us dead, it's them we can't negotiate with.


Maybe a boycott against Bjørn by certain fanatics would not be such a bad idea for those of us who actually enjoy reading his posts.

The Germans analogy is, as Bjørn points out, of course idiotic. Being a German has never made anyone a Nazi. Being a Muslim, however, does mean that one has Islam as a religion. That makes the Islam of Abdul Ghaffar Khan (one of Gandhis closest allies) just as Islamic as the Islam of ayatollah Khomeini and Sufism just as Islamic as Wahhabism.

To conclude any other things is to pretend that it is only ones own interpretation of Islam - an interpretation one would imagine few Muslims share - that is the only "true" interpretation. To make such conclusions about other peoples religion and then call their religion "distilled evil" is sadly something we have good traditions with, both Germans, Norwegians and certainly Arabs.


Regarding AB

I have always found this site entertaining and in a number of instances have had spirited debates with a number of participants. Sometimes the sarcasm is sharp and funny. However, the commentary and personal attacks by AB are off the scale. They remind me of a man who mailed his psychological profile to a psychiatrist and asked for an opinion. The psychiatrist wrote “It is my opinion you are sick”. The man said “I want a second opinion” The psychiatrist wrote back “I bet you are ugly too” :-)


-- but I do know that that test must involve the actual beliefs and behavior of actual Muslims.--

Your test will be at the ballot box, Bjorn.

It already was in Britain.

Unfortunately, this'll take a decade or 2 to see.


Oyvind, Hollanders leaving for better pastures was already discussed on this blog.

Remember "white flight?"

Interestingly, a stereotype is that Europe's 30 years behind US. You're on schedule. Welcome to our 70s. Fasten your seatbelt, it's going to be an extremely bumpy ride.

--an interpretation one would imagine few Muslims share - that is the only "true" interpretation---

How long have they been fighting to decide which vision reigns supreme?

--On what basis do you conclude that, faced with the choice between wealth and freedom,--

Why wealth and freedom?

Don't conquerors take the booty? They've had wealth and Islam, haven't they? And I'm not talking 20th century and oil.

It's like some Mexicans or Azlatans. They think if they get back the Southwest with all the improvements we made their lives will be fine, but if they stick to the same failed socioeconomic policies of Mexico, it'll be just another 3rd world country.


Just remembered something Norwegian Blogger wrote two years ago: "Why Europe Is NOT Doomed". Definately worth a read (again):

Why Europe Is NOT Doomed - Part I

Why Europe Is NOT Doomed - Part II


It would be nice if a multicultural society could work, but when it dosen't, why not draw the only logical conclusion.


Kim: A multicultural society doesn't work, even in theory. It's a bad idea in any case. In turns outright lethal when combined with Islam.


"A multicultural society doesn't work, even in theory. It's a bad idea in any case. In turns outright lethal when combined with Islam."
Well, Melbourne would be a very very multicultural city on a world scale. Singapore as well. And I know it works very well, (both places) I enjoy all different kinds of food, I have friends from all over the place, (yeah muslims too). And these two places does not seem to be on the verge of civil war in any way. And one of the things I enjoy very much here is that you don't hear as many racist jokes here as at home.


Interesting discussion, and good to see Ole Jørgen's site and statistics stimulate some real discussion.

One comment which has not been followed up, though, from Jan (hello):

"Look back at Europe anno ca 1300 (maybe even 1700). Was there any reason to expect that Europe could develop real civilisation? I don't think so."

As I think the opposite, and I think not a few Historians do as well, I am a bit intrigued by this statement. How would you back it up? Not any reason at all?

I hope your not bending backwards here, to avoid being viewed as a Western Chauvinist or something?

"Yet it happened. Christianity was more repressive in 1300 than Islam was. Now it's the other way around, and I don't think that has much to do with Islam, and a lot to do with how people live in those societies (those who argue Islam is the sole reason the Arab world is repressed, should compare to similarly repressed Christian communities in Africa)."

In what way and in what part of the world was "Islam" less repressive than "Christianity" in 1300? It may have been, and my newspaper always tells me it was.

Still I am a bit in a doubt as in Europe e.g. there was a growing tradition for legal autonomy of various bodies(guilds, universities, towns), while "Islam" seems rather consistently, then and now, to have a more totalitarian/theocratic mind.

Or don't you in general find religious/cultural factors contributing at all?

Of course living in Badghad in 800 was better than living in Paris or London (the really backwaters of civilisation, having just started to grow again after the total collapse of Western Roman civilisation). However by 1300 it would be a lot harder to dismiss that there were strong stimulators for change and growth in Europe (some would say this was at least partly due to a difference in religious/philosophical outlook. e.g. belief in linear time and secular progress), while there seems to have been strong inhibitors in the Islamic world.

"Nothing is inevitable. History makes us. But we make history."

Definitely.


Hello Bjørn Are. Good to see you here.

I'd guess a comprehensive comparison of the Christian (Europe) and Islamic (Middle East, North Africa) societies in the late middle ages and renaissance is well beyond the scope of a blog posting. You are quite correct that Europe was backwards compared to the Middle East in the time of the Baghdad caliphate. Over the following centuries, Europe evolved as the Islamic world declined. At some time, you'd say Europe was more advanced, and at what point that happened can be debated.

Maybe the best known example indicating that this point was rather closer to our own is Spain, which famously expelled all Muslims and Jews in 1492. The Jewish refugees were quite well received in the Muslim world.

What we know as Arabic numerals (and the Arabs called Indian numerals) was introduced to Europe in 1202 by Fibonacci, but didn't come into widespread use until Gutenberg's printing press in the 1450s. The printing press was crucial for the renaissance, and which point Europe started to advance rapidly.

The reformation, arguably a necessary stepping stone on Europe's troubled road to democracy, in fact initiated an era of horrible wars and conflict. The thirty years' war (1618-1648) caused massive death, economic stagnation and regression in central Europe.

I'd argue that anyone living in Europe in this era would be quite pessimistic about ever reaching a period of calm, peace and prosperity, and far less democracy and human rights.


I know the rule is that you are not to post complete articles, but I just came across this parody and does sort of deal with the subject of multiculteral issues that are being discussed here. It is truly hysterical.

http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/2005/05/newsweek_lutefi.html

Newsweek Lutefisk Story Sparks Fury Across Volatile Midwest

[** DELETED -- That's right, Herbie, you're not to post complete articles. Ever. For any reason. -BS 18/5]


--Well, Melbourne would be a very very multicultural city on a world scale. Singapore as well. --

But the overriding footprint is Anglo, is it not?

Aren't the really part of the Anglosphere?

You can have multicultural, but you still need 1 overriding footprint, something that ties everyone together.

I can buy wasabi mayo, salsa is running neck-and-neck w/ketchup. I've had prawn-flavored cheese balls. My bagel of choice is plain toasted w/salsa cream cheese - is it Jewish or Hispanic? But I order it in English. I pay for it in 1 currency.

Multiculti gets you balkanization. Look how well that turned out.

Separate but equal doesn't work. Been there, done that. Didn't turn out well.



SANDY "You can have multicultural, but you still need 1 overriding footprint, something that ties everyone together [over and above their personal value system]." EXACTLY SO. If Islam does not or cannot integrate and demands an ascendant position then all you have are people occupying space and that will lead to failure as is taking place now in Europe


Bjørn Are: Islam can never be compared to Christianity or any other religion for that matter. Islam is an enemy, period.


Bjorn, Ok but at least leave in the first paragraph that gives the flavor of the parody:

Newsweek Lutefisk Story Sparks Fury Across Volatile Midwest

"Decorah, IA - The debris-strewn streets of this remote Midwestern hamlet remain under a tense 24-hour curfew tonight, following weekend demonstrations by rock- and figurine-throwing Lutheran farm wives that left over 200 people injured and leveled the Whippy Dip dairy freeze. The rioting appeared to be prompted, in part, by a report in Newsweek magazine claiming military guards at Spirit Lake’s notorious Okoboji internment center had flushed lutefisk down prison toilets. Newsweek’s late announcement of a retraction seems to have done little to quell the inflamed passions of Lutheran insurgents in the region, as outbreaks of violent mailbox bashings and cow tippings have been reported from Bowbells, North Dakota to Pekin, Illinois."

* * *


Susan..in reference to your post:
"
Susan | 2005-05-16 21:23 |
Whilst we were eating an arab appeared by the side window (in a narrow, little used passageway) and started exposing himself to us. We simply ignored it and after a while he came up closer to the window, mouthed "Putains!" and made throat-cutting gestures before he slunk off into the night.
The number of times I am accosted by these people on the street is increasing and the police will not get involved: they seem to be frightened of the gangs of moroccans who treat any form of law or decency with total contempt.
Buy your chadors now, girls, while they are still cheap.

Samantha

Comments, Oyvind? "

...I would like to paraphrase a possible reply from Oeyvind:

" Het is eigenlijk heel makelijk ( en gemakkelijk ook)....Islam is what muslims believe ( it to be )...in Moonshine from Malines/Mechelen he also wrote:

"I keep hearing how evil Islam is, how Muslims living in Europe do not want to integrate, but live in their own ghettos (or was it bridgeheads?), how they are – indeed - infiltrating Western society. Yes, I have been informed that Islam should be banned. It really makes me wonder who the real nutcases are.

Well, I have just identified some of them. They are (surprise, surprise) Belgians..."....

...he did also say in his Dilettant site that " islam is not demonic...( oh i betcha he's gonna say i translated his Norweeejian incorrectly ..that naughty askeladden !).....well i betcha if he had seen that arab guy exposing himself , the most he( Oeyvind) would do would be to write up that arab guy in the multicultral section of the aftenposten and chalk it off as a variant or at most peculiar behaviour of an oppressed /victimized minority in the Belgique.

You and I know better, we or at least I would have given him a big kick in the pudenda with my high heel shoes ( I have training in Tae Kwan Do). I have a better idea, instead of buying our Chaddors we should enroll all us girls in martial arts class and be prepared to kick ass. Or we could learn to use our scissors better , by taking lessons from Lorena Bobbitt !!! Snip , snip , Snip Allahuma! Allahuma ! Tee Hee.

Sissster Ayyyy!sha Nyah Nyah-ponika Kim
Feminisst Buddhissst Spesjialisst in irrasjional adamikkk Kults
김 교수- 위험한 사교 전문가


Susan..in reference to your post:
"
Susan | 2005-05-16 21:23 |
Whilst we were eating an arab appeared by the side window (in a narrow, little used passageway) and started exposing himself to us. We simply ignored it and after a while he came up closer to the window, mouthed "Putains!" and made throat-cutting gestures before he slunk off into the night.
The number of times I am accosted by these people on the street is increasing and the police will not get involved: they seem to be frightened of the gangs of moroccans who treat any form of law or decency with total contempt.
Buy your chadors now, girls, while they are still cheap.

Samantha

Comments, Oyvind? "

...I would like to paraphrase a possible reply from Oeyvind:

" Het is eigenlijk heel makelijk ( en gemakkelijk ook)....Islam is what muslims believe ( it to be )...in Moonshine from Malines/Mechelen he also wrote:

"I keep hearing how evil Islam is, how Muslims living in Europe do not want to integrate, but live in their own ghettos (or was it bridgeheads?), how they are – indeed - infiltrating Western society. Yes, I have been informed that Islam should be banned. It really makes me wonder who the real nutcases are.

Well, I have just identified some of them. They are (surprise, surprise) Belgians..."....

...he did also say in his Dilettant site that " islam is not demonic...( oh i betcha he's gonna say i translated his Norweeejian incorrectly ..that naughty askeladden !).....well i betcha if he had seen that arab guy exposing himself , the most he( Oeyvind) would do would be to write up that arab guy in the multicultral section of the aftenposten and chalk it off as a variant or at most peculiar behaviour of an oppressed /victimized minority in the Belgique.

You and I know better, we or at least I would have given him a big kick in the pudenda with my high heel shoes ( I have training in Tae Kwan Do). I have a better idea, instead of buying our Chaddors we should enroll all us girls in martial arts class and be prepared to kick ass. Or we could learn to use our scissors better , by taking lessons from Lorena Bobbitt !!! Snip , snip , Snip Allahuma! Allahuma ! Tee Hee.

Sissster Ayyyy!sha Nyah Nyah-ponika Kim
Feminisst Buddhissst Spesjialisst in irrasjional adamikkk Kults
김 교수- 위험한 사교 전문가


The main issue, I think, is that this is an irreversible development: We will not, and cannot, deport people based on ethnicity or religion. Not now, not in the future.

The idea of a multicultural society was never voted upon, yet it is the single most important factor in the changing of our society. For this reason, the multicultural experiment should have been a democratic undertaking.

The numbers point to something. Like it or not. We need to find out what we want Norway to look like in ten, twenty, fifty years from now, demographically speaking, and then find a long term strategy on how to get there.

And I want to be heard this time.


Well, well, well sometimes BS you actually make sense, kudos to you. To some punters on this blog: banter is only funny if it's intelligent, when it's bullocks it belongs in the bin. I have a hard time believing Mr. Anfindsen as making an important contribution to the debate as to whether or not "Islamification" will occur. Surely this is what you are worried about, yes? Exponential growth? hmmm, even if the growth rate of the MUSLIM popoluation in Norway is exponential (and I don't really think it is) AND the exponential rate is constant for a long time, it will take MUCH, MUCH more than 50 measly years for Norway to become a Muslim country. This is a what if analysis and is just as valid as Anfindsens since he gives NO JUSTIFICATION for his claims. Pick-number is a dangerous business, and extrapolating cross-sectional "evidence" in the time dimension is rife with problems. I suggest the following, the SCIENTISTS working at SSB knows an AWFUL lot more about these issues than any of you could possibly hope to. After all it is their J-O-B to gather and analyse statistics.

You may or may not agree with me BS, but I reckon Economics, Politics and Statitistics should be left to the people who knows what they're doing. After all, I do not claim to know how to do Engineering or nuclear physics-I let the engineers and physicists do their job and trust that they will let me do mine without making farsical statements about the future. In your words, the future is NOT modular and in my humble opinion the growth rate of muslims in Norway will stabilise around some long-run mean. Once this mean is reached it does not matter whether not the rate is exponetial, since the growth rate of "protestant" norwegians (for lack of a better term) may also turn out to be exponential (which it will be if norwegian couples have at least two children on average, approximately).

Fear is the path to the dark side. Wise words indeed from a very wise green elfin.


"Fear is the path to the dark side."


As is appeasement and denial. Don't quote Master Yoda unless you're up to the challenge. Given the problems European countries such as Holland and Sweden face already now with only 5-7 % Muslims, we can say with confidence that continued Muslim immigration will have disastrous consequences for all of Europe, Norway included. France is so bad that serious people talk about the possibility of civil war.



Please keep in mind that my PRIMARY message in my VG article and the accompanying material has been to provide evidence that SSB has failed to inform Norwegians in a proper way about the demographic development.

However, based on some strong recommendations from friends and allies, I hesitatingly included some what-if-analyses. They are meant to open people’s eyes to the fact that IF things continue to develop the way they have for 20 – 30 years, THEN we probably have serious problems ahead.

Geir England wrote:
"Exponential growth? hmmm, even if the growth rate of the MUSLIM popoluation in Norway is exponential (and I don't really think it is)"

The growth can of course be broken down into multiple components. But there is clearly a dominant component here that is indeed exponential.

Geir England wrote:
"AND the exponential rate is constant for a long time, it will take MUCH, MUCH more than 50 measly years for Norway to become a Muslim country.”

Really? On what evidence or analysis do you base this claim? Countries like Holland and Sweden were once were we are now. Although I do not have any figures in front of me, I cannot recall having read that the growth has ceased in those countries yet. On the contrary, I believe they are heading forward at full speed (please correct me if I am wrong).

Geir England wrote:
“This is a what if analysis and is just as valid as Anfindsens since he gives NO JUSTIFICATION for his claims."

No justification? I gave two reasons for believing that the future growth is likely to stay at 5% or higher. (1) The consistent pattern of growth since the 1970s, and (2) the analysis of the way “fetching marriages” (henteekteskap) is being used by large immigration groups in Norway (with reference to research into this topic by HRS – www.rights.no).

First of all, may I remind you that my “5% claim” is stated in a careful way. I am not claiming to be fully confident that we will have this kind of growth until 2050, I am just saying I find it hard to believe that the AVERAGE growth will drop below 5% within 45 years, given the above facts.

Secondly, I am of course prepared to withdraw my “5% claim” if I am presented with evidence that the growth is indeed likely to shrink below that level. Who knows, perhaps the AVERAGE annual growth rate for 2005 – 2050 will be 4%. That would be good news compared to the current situation, but even so we are still likely to have some really tough challenges ahead of us.

In Part 2 of the "bakgrunnsnotat" (available in Norwegian from www.honestThinking.org/ssb/ and currently in the process of being translated into English) I discuss some ethical and political issues. I hope many of you will take the time to read. These are, I believe, issues that need to be carefully considered and thoroughly discussed. There are strong forces trying to silence such discussions by means of intimidation tactics (“hersketeknikker” - keep an eye on certain Norwegian newspapers over the next few days, and you will see what I mean), and the blogger community has an important role to play in that context. Freedom of speech should not be given up lightly.


Harald: The idea of a multicultural society was never voted upon, yet it is the single most important factor in the changing of our society.

No, it's not. The most important factor for changing our society today is technology, and unlike immigration it is almost completely beyond the control of lawmakers. Even apart from technology, Norwegian society is changing much faster on its own accord than anything foreigners can accomplish.

Geir England: I suggest the following, the SCIENTISTS working at SSB knows an AWFUL lot more about these issues than any of you could possibly hope to. After all it is their J-O-B to gather and analyse statistics.

I'm sure they do, when they put their minds to it. But Anfindsen makes a good case that SSB allows political concerns to override statistics. Why else have they refused to make new estimates for the growth of Norway's non-Western population?

in my humble opinion the growth rate of muslims in Norway will stabilise around some long-run mean

Probably - but only if we consciously decide to stabilize it, by restricting family "reunions". If this doesn't happen, I would expect exponential growth for at least another generation. Non-Westerners marry primarily with people from the home country, placing integration on hold indefinitely, so this can go on for a very long time.


Susan:

First of all, I have never stated that Dutch are fleeing globalization. They are not moving to other countries because they are fleeing. They are moving, however, as a result of globalization.

Secondly, you are flat out wrong when you claim that most emigrating Dutch go to Anglo-Saxon countries, and especially when you manage to get Canada, Australia and New Zealand into the equation.

49.000 people born in the Netherlands left the country to live in another in 2004, "de meeste [...] naar Duitsland en Belgïe" (most to Germany and Belgium). For more info, see Statistics Netherlands.

As you will discover a large number of Dutch people are indeed living in Canada, the US and other anglo-Saxon countries, but let me quote the Statistics Netherlands report:

De grote aantallen Nederlanders in Canada, de Verenigde Staten en Australië zijn een afspiegeling van de emigratiegolf in de jaren vijftig van de vorige eeuw. Uit angst voor overbevolking en werkloosheid vertrokken toen jaarlijks gemiddeld 33 duizend Nederlanders naar Australië, Canada, de Verenigde Staten, Nieuw-Zeeland en Zuid-Afrika. In 1952 beproefden meer dan 50 duizend Nederlanders hun geluk in één van deze landen.

Translation: The large numbers of Dutch in Canada, the United States and Australia mirrors the emigration wave in the fifties. As a result of anxiety for overpopulation and unemployment more than 33000 Dutch left to Australia, Canada, the US, New Zealand and South Africa in average on a yearly basis. In 1952 there were more than 50000 Dutch trying their luck in one of these countries.

I am sure you will find this graph intriguing, Susan. Frankly, I do not know how you manage to mix together the fifties and present day. I feel quite sure, however, that the Muslims were not to blame for the emigration from the Netherlands in the 1950s. Are they to blame (does any one have blame?) today, as most Dutch emigrants go to neighboring countries with equally big Muslim minority groups? Hardly.

True, there has been an increase in Dutch emigration to the countries you mention, as mentioned in Expatica, but Canada has a long way to go to be able to compete with Belgium. Not long ago a book even came on the Dutch market telling why Belgium is the better country of the two.

According to Statistics Netherlands these were the top emigration countries for Dutch in 2003.

1. Belgium, 7.150
2. Germany, 6,218
3. The United Kingdom, 3,037 (see! Anglo-Saxon!)
4. Spain, 2,101
5. France, 2,057
6. The United States, 1,912
7. Australia, 896
8. Canada, 719

In 2004 there were 53000 people (not only Dutch-born counted) leaving the Netherlands, according to Statistics Netherlands, more than half of them were people of foreign background leaving the country, often for their country of origin or heritage (see: Actuele bevolkingstrenden):

"In het eerste halfjaar van 2004 is vooral de emigratie van Turken sterk toegenomen" (in the first half of 2004 especially Turkish emigration numbers grew). They are probably fleeing the Muslims.

Lastly, I am not interested in your anecdotes from Belgium or the Netherlands or any other country on how terrible Arabs, Muslims, Moroccans, whatever, are. These anecdotes are quite irrelevant to why people are leaving the Netherlands, just as they are quite irrelevant to whether I need to be sleepless at night because my neighbors are Turkish and because one of several cafes in the neighbourhood is a Moroccan cafe where alcohol is not served.

Øyvind


Ole Jørgen Anfindsen: Bravo! I can not do anything but applaud your article and your comment.

Geir England: Actually, statistics only say things about the past up until the present. For the future, we have to extrapolate and guess. When it comes to migration - that's a topic it's difficult to extrapolate from - as it depends on many variables. We quite simply do not know how many kids people from other cultures will have in future generations. We quite simply do not know how well they will integrate. We quite simply do not know how many immigrants or how many of their offspring will be in Norway in 50 years.

People working with statistics without a proper data-foundation does nothing but guesswork on this. We cannot have a proper foundation to do such guesswork from yet, as it has only been two generations. The first had lots of kids - the second is still in their fertile years.


Two things: Susan P. is spot on! I see similar incidents occuring here in Montréal ( ie a Jewish grade-school was firebombed) and their frequency is increasing. Women and gays and Jews are bearing the brunt of these silly and irresponsible immigration policies.

Immigration IS a gay rights issue AND a women's rights issue AND an issue of anti-semitism. Susan P. is quite correct!!

Second: what is this nonsense about 8th century Bagdad in comparison to London or Paris.....as though they were the only two "Christian cities in 800.

At the beginning of the 9th century Constantinople wasn't just the largest "Christian" city in Europe; it was the LARGEST CITY IN THE WORLD!

It was also the wealthiest and had, by far, the highest trate of literacy for BOTH men and women.

So a tiny group of people on the western fringes of Europe have a bad patch and ALL of Europe must be portrayed in a similar manner.

Sorry to rain on such a truncated and falsified view of history, but whilst a few ignorant, backward Saxons and Franks picked their noses the Byzantines read and discussed the ancient writers and philosophers with gusto and enthusiasm!

In 800 Constaninople counted more than a million inhabitants. Does Oslo even count that many citizens today?

Backward indeed!


Ovind, get yer head out of yer Viking arse.

When women and gays tell you that life is getting rougher and rougher, you'd be best to listen.....and listen good!

You don't want to see what's happening. You prefer to entertain warm fuzzy sentiments of secular humanism, but you're doing your moral preening on the backs of women, gays, lesbians and Jews.

You're blissfully unaware of just how VILE and IMMORAL your "moral position" is.

In order not to offend the head-choppers you'll willingly expose women, gays and minorities to potential violence and even muirder.

Morally bankrupt and irony tone-deaf!

AND, I suspect, an old hippie!!


Oyvind You say "These anecdotes are quite irrelevant to why people are leaving the Netherlands, just as they are quite irrelevant to whether I need to be sleepless at night because my neighbors are Turkish and because one of several cafes in the neighbourhood is a Moroccan cafe where alcohol is not served." THAT HAS AND NEVER HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE ISSUES THAT ARE BEING RAISED.

Susan had it exactly right when she spoke about a common set of communal vales as a basis for a society as distinguished from personal values.

You remind me of the story of two social workers who hear someone pleading for help in a dark alley. When they approach they find a man beaten and bloody who asks "help me, I've bben mugged" One social worker looks at the other and says "The person that did this could really use some help" and the other agrees. They then walk out of the alley leaving the man alone.



Ovind, get yer head out of yer Viking arse.

When women and gays tell you that life is getting rougher and rougher, you'd be best to listen.....and listen good!

You don't want to see what's happening. You prefer to entertain warm fuzzy sentiments of secular humanism, but you're doing your moral preening on the backs of women, gays, lesbians and Jews.
John P to Oyvind:

"You're blissfully unaware of just how VILE and IMMORAL your "moral position" is.

In order not to offend the head-choppers you'll willingly expose women, gays and minorities to potential violence and even muirder.

Morally bankrupt and irony tone-deaf!"

Amen, John P! And I'll bet Oyvind even considers himself a "feminist." Yee Gods!



Oyvind: "These anecdotes are quite irrelevant to why people are leaving the Netherlands, just as they are quite irrelevant to whether I need to be sleepless at night because my neighbors are Turkish and because one of several cafes in the neighbourhood is a Moroccan cafe where alcohol is not served.

What utter bullshit, Oyvind. People are not interested in leaving Holland because they are
systematically experiencing a huge increase in crime, sexual harassment, violence etc.? You are really fantasizing here.

In addition, you should have searched Expatica more closely:

Why are they leaving: http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?channel_id=1&story_id=18295

"Active in the field of migration since 1986,
Frans explains that the social and environmental reasons for leaving Holland have to do with an overcrowding and overpopulation
and too much bureaucracy. In addition, there is the perception that the country is becoming more violent and the citizens less tolerant towards others."

As for the Anglo-Saxon world, it may not be
where most are headed now, but it seems to be in the future:

Grant King, a founder of the Migration
Bureau Consulting Group, says there has been a doubling in the last year alone in the number of
inquiries from Dutch people about emigrating to New Zealand, Australia and Canada.

And here: http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?channel_id=1&story_id=17699

But besides the sluggish Dutch economy,
immigration and integration concerns are reportedly contributing to pessimism about the future of the Netherlands. This is in turn reportedly leading to a white Middle Class
flight away from the Lowlands.

And despite the fact that, emigrants rarely
cited a fear of militant Islam as their main reason for packing their bags, the killing of
filmmaker Theo van Gogh, a fierce critic of fundamentalist Islam, last November seems to
have been a catalyst, The New York Times reported last month.

The number of visitors to the website
www.emigratie.nl jumped sharply after the
assassination.

I suppose you also think the 750,000 mostly Christian Lebanese who fled to the West in the years 1975-1990 left as a result of "globalization" as well.


As I said before, women, gays and Jews are being offered up as sacrificial lambs to assuage western white male liberal/leftwing guilt. It is not the asses of these dhimmi fools that are on the line here so why should they care about us?

We Western women are just gonna have to accept extreme sexual harassment, rape, honor killings, discrimination in working conditions and all the rest. The overwhelming needs of the western white male liberal/leftwing guilt complex counts for far more than mere human beings like us.

Sister Kim: yes, we Western women should learn how to defend ourselves from PoS's like that Arab man in Brussels, but why should we have to? We once walked our own streets in relative safety with no worries. No we increasingly can't, thanks to the Western white male liberal-leftwing guilt complex. Why should we have to be afraid, in our own lands?

Oyvind do you have a daughter? Probably not. People like you never have children -- the kind who are happy to puff themselvs up and pontificate about all sorts of socialogical ideals usually don't have anyone to worry about who'll inherit the messes their ideals create.


An English continuation of my Norwegian post:

The Norwegian Inquisition - Sunset in the Land of the Midnight Sun


Sandy:
What was the overarching culture in Singapore again? Anglo, was it? You wanna try guessing the solution once more? Actually I think that is what you and your friends are doing.. A whole lot of guesswork, based on nothing but fear and prejudices.


Good to see you step in here, John!

This "nonsense about 8th century Bagdad in comparison to London or Paris.....as though they were the only two "Christian cities in 800" was a deliberate choice (though foolishly unstated) as I imagined Jan was thinking about Western Europe. As I for a while maintained a webside on Constantinople and even wrote a book some years ago featuring the Queen of Cities, I can assure you that I am rather aware of it. Even been there and done talks about it.

My thesis was that even the "worst case" (Western Europe) was rather advanced by 1300, and in several areas more advanced than Islam.

Look at http://www.telenor.com/telektronikk/volumes/pdf/2.2004/Page_005-025.pdf for more musings of mine in this area of "Islam" vs. "Christianity".

"In 800 Constaninople counted more than a million inhabitants. Does Oslo even count that many citizens today?"

Nope. Though Ole Jørgen is definitely able tell you when it will reach one million.


Susan,
Did you see this one?


---> http://fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/03/women-who-go-to-hairdressers-will-go.html


Women who go to hairdressers will go to hell”
“Women who go to hairdressers will go to hell”

An imam has infuriated the nation during a Friday prayer session by insisting that Muslim girls should cover themselves from head to toe and condemning women who use perfume. Text of the sermon is to be sent to Muslim schools. Muslim girls should cover themselves from head to toe, and neither wear perfume nor go to the hairdressers if they want to have any chance of going to heaven.

The sermon was at Copenhagen's Islamic Religious Community........I guess we better stock up on that mascara and eyeliner , shadow and what not eh? Chaddor is not a bad idea, I favor the slightly voluminous ones that will hide scissors, knives, stun guns and chemical sprays. Dose up on gelatin , girls ! We need them long finger nails ...got some serious eye clawing , scratching and mauling to do....no Ahab better be exposing his wiener to moi....or i'll skewer it with mah handy chop-sticks unner mah pretty pink cherry blossom chaddor !!!

Sister Ayyyiii!!!sha NyahNyahNyahPonika Kim
Zen at War
白色蓮花公主---- 禪宗佛教在戰爭


Sorry, Susan, but I still not see the relevance something some Belgian has written on a blog on her personal chocking experience with some Arab has to do with why people are leaving the Netherlands.

That people are starting to believe that all Muslims are some kind of monsters might have something to do with Muslims leaving Netherlands, of course, and I am sure you also find a few people leaving Netherlands for a number of reason, like the Swedish skinhead who said: "If they do not stop allowing foreigners into this country very soon, I will move to a country where they do not let foreigners in".

However, the most important reasons are hardly the presence of Muslim minorities, as is pointed out in Expaticas stories and in research from Statistics Netherlands. In addition, your bullshit about emigration to Anglo-Saxon countries is bullshit, bullshit and utter bullshit. I am still waiting for you to comment on where you got that idea from.

Furthermore, I do consider myself a feminist, though a sometimes failing one, I do think that important changes should be done in European immigration policies and I do regard conservative Islam as a fierce opponent in the fight for womens and gays rights. I have also visited Molenbeek, Brussels, unlike you, I presume, and I have a number of reasons for not liking what I saw very much. Ghettofication is worrying in Europe, just as it is worrying anywhere else.

Not that any of that is relevant to a debate on why you are telling the truth on why people are leaving the Netherlands or not.

How do you explain the large number of Dutch-born people with Turkish heritage leaving the Netherlands, by the way? Hearing your opinions on that one could be illuminating.

Øyvind


The Lebanese Christians that left Lebanon in the time period you mention left mainly of two reasons; Civil War and religious unrest and persecution. For you to think that the situation in the Netherlands is somewhat akin to the situation in Lebanon during the civil war years is either:

a) quite scary
b) quite revealing
c) quite funny
d) all of the above

Øyvind


I still side with Susan.
The objective facts are a) orthodox Islam states that it is incompatible with democracy and that a theocracy is the only acceptable form of government; b) non Moslems are to be accorded Dhimmi status and c) women, Jews and gays are troublesome, evil and perverted. Secular Islamic thought is a minority and since the time of Ibn Taymiyya it has held that Greek logic is responsible for the "heretical" metaphysical conclusions. It regards the Koran as a literal dictation from God, unlike the Bible which is largely a "Kantian Ought"

Given the overwhelming failure of Moslems to integrate in Western society, it is fair , in my view to to demand that THEY CHANGE OR LEAVE. As one US Supreme Court Justice in the US famously observed in a similar context "the Constitution is not a suicide pact".

At this point the burden is on the Moslem community to establish that they are entitled to live in the West. From my point of view that means accepting others as equals and the separation of church and state. While Moslems have down a toilet; not one has condemned the confiscation of bibles in Moslem countries nor the prohibition of Christian practices in Moslem countries.

The West is entitled to its values – which I would maintain with all of its problems has served mankind far better that Islam


The phrase "While Moslems have down a toilet" shoud read "While Moslems have condemed the flusinhing of a Koran down a toilet"


Susan P. : Ovind's "flabby tolerance" is but the camouflage that hides his moral exhaustion!


The first time I visited Norway was December 1998. I spent time in both Trondheim and Oslo. And in Trondheim, especially, "ethnic" looking people really stood out (African, Pakistani, Asian). They were few and far in between during my first visit. I really noticed them because a.) as part polyneasian myself (I'm short and have a dark complexion) I notice these things and b.)the more ethnic looking population of Norway really stand out like... well, like an ethnic person living in the land of blond, blue eye giants.

With each new visit to the area (1999, 2000, 2001, 2002) I see more and more to the point that it is no longer a novelty for me when I am visiting. It is becoming common place and no longer unusual.

Is this a sign of things to come? Who can say. But I am willing to place money on Ole Jørgen Anfindsen bet that Norway will have a non-Western majority by 2050.

Not that this is a bad thing, mind you!

Well, I guess it would be a bad thing if one was particularly nationalistic (and Norway is very nationalistic) and too overly concerned that the nation's "bloodline" was becoming "diluted" and all that spooky type nazi-like rhetoric.

Soon, your typical Scandinavian (Norwegian, Swede, Danish) will no longer fit the tall, blond, blue-eye stereotype.

Give multiculturism a chance!

Signed,
a short, dark haired, part Hawaiian AMERICAN girl with an Irish first name (but who is not Irish but rather Anglo-German-Greek), married to a Tall, Blond, Blue Eye Norse god!

*.¸¸.•´¨`*»•..•«*´¨`•.¸¸.*Erin*.¸¸.•´¨`*»•..•«*´¨`•.¸¸.*


Allan, when your studies are over, may I suggest a laminated world map, various-colored dry markers and making a point of reading Rantburg every day?

This is RISK, writ large.


May I also suggest to everyone to pop in on Barcepundit every now and then?

Seems there might be ties between a Syrian-born policeman and the Madrid bombing.


WARNING: COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC

Something else I noticed on visits to Norway is the graffiti. What's with all the graffiti? Is it just my imagination or are there more popping up everywhere? Even in suburban neighborhoods...

COUNTDOWN TO UPCOMMING VISIT TO NORWAY AND DREADED INDOCTRINATION OF SOCIALIST VALUES AND EVILS OF U.S. AND CAPITALISM:

33 Days

*sigh*


*.¸¸.•´¨`*»•..•«*´¨`•.¸¸.*Erin*.¸¸.•´¨`*»•..•«*´¨`•.¸¸.*

Do you think hubby and I should spill the beans to his parents on my continuing conversion to Reconstructionist Judaism or... ???

They will just die.

I just know it.

But first they will probably disown their son, shun their grandson, and throw me to the lions.


Isn't Belgium becoming balkanized?

I read Live from Brussels every now and then.

And what about Antwerp?

So they go to Belgium, it'll take a while to see if they stay or move on.

And Germany, well, 10ish% unemployment..... why can they get jobs and Germans can't? But 2003 was so long ago, Oyvind.

Well, white flight is out there, now let's add another phrase, "voting with your feet."

Canadians do it, too, more come to the US than we go the other way.


No, Erin, but you should take some heretical books and accidentally leave them behind.

Maybe french anti-Americanism, the Scot-Irish and how they shaped America, the Federalist papers, that kind of topic.


Ohh, and The Skeptical Environmentalist.

That should keep them talking.


Or this via Instapundit:

IN THE MAIL: Paul Sperry's Infiltration: How Muslim Spies and Subversives Have Penetrated Washington.


Øyvind:
“However, the most important reasons are hardly the presence of Muslim minorities, as is pointed out in Expaticas stories and in research from Statistics Netherlands. In addition, your bullshit about emigration to Anglo-Saxon countries is bullshit, bullshit and utter bullshit. I am still waiting for you to comment on where you got that idea from. “

Is this source good enough for you? NYT solid enough? Btw, the flee to Anglo-Saxon countries will show in statistics for the coming years.

“AMSTERDAM - Paul Hiltemann had already noticed a darkening mood in the Netherlands. He runs an agency for people wanting to emigrate and his client list had surged.
But he was still taken aback in November when a Dutch filmmaker was shot and his throat was slit, execution style, on an Amsterdam street.
In the weeks that followed, Mr. Hiltemann was inundated by e-mail messages and telephone calls. "There was a big panic," he said, "a flood of people saying they wanted to leave the country."”

http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=17199

Here is what The Times has to say of the situation in Holland:

“Multiculturalism is damned. A recent poll found 80% in favour of stronger measures to get immigrants to integrate — and 40% said they "hoped" Muslims "no longer feel at home here".”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2099-1488514,00.html

And here, some words of warning from our own Kåre Willoch on the future in our country, in Dagsavisen, of all. He believes ethnic Norwegians will be outnumbered this century:

http://www.dagsavisen.no/innenriks/article1518294.ece

But I don’t think anything anybody argues can sway your convictions, considering your ideologist and propagandist nature.


Yes, it was the NY Times article I was thinking of when I said that Dutch people were perferring to flee to the Anglo-Saxon world, as well as the Expatica quotes posted above which quoted emigration agents for Anglo-Saxon countries -- who noted that inquiries for those countries had doubled after the Van Gogh assassination.

If Oyvind is confused I guess he skipped over those paragraphs.

Oyvind I only posted that one comment from the Belgian women as a flavor of what I hear and read about everyday from Dutch and Belgium people, especially women, who are subject to racial harassment from Arabs.

As for Turks leaving the Netherlands, I would presume that they are the secular ones who see Holland Islamizing too.

As for my comments about Beirut, no I wasn't comparing the Netherlands to Lebanon (it has a ways to get their yet, but knowing what I know about Islam, it will get there soon enough), but I was pointing out the ridiculousness of your statement that people in Holland were not concerned about the crime, violence and harassment that the Muslim immigrants have brought.

If you are a feminist then you are a very obtuse one. You try to throw the sheep into the lion's den and then put your faith in the fact the lion won't eat the sheep because you entreat him with pretty words about "multiculturalism" and readings from The Socialist Worker's Daily.

If the lion eats the sheep, oh well, then we know it doesn't work, but it's the sheep who suffers, not you.

Oh, the foolishness of those who think that we can import medieval tribes into a modern post-industrial culture and expect that we'll all live happily ever after.


PS -- Oyvind

It's like deja vu all over again. You are denying that Dutch people are fleeing Holland because of Islamization with the same vociferousness that you once denied that Muslims were abusing the family reunification program to rapidly increase their numbers in Norway and other Western European countries.

Well, we've seen how "correct" you were about that one, and we'll see how correct you are about Holland too.


PPS -- In other words, speaking as a sheep who doesn't want to get thrown to the lions, I politely request to Oyvind that he either puts his own ass on the line, instead of mine -- or shut the eff up.

Of course that would be difficult as he does not have the right equipment to be sexually persecuted by the men of the medieval tribes he wants to import into our nations.


"PPS -- In other words, speaking as a sheep who doesn't want to get thrown to the lions, I politely request to Oyvind that he either puts his own ass on the line, instead of mine -- or shut the eff up. "

He could walk around Amsterdam acting gay, couldn't he, to taste the results of his policies! Would you do that, Øyvind, see how friendly "friendly Ali" really is?


Erin: No, I'm not willing to give multiculturalism any more chances. As I said, it doesn't work even in theory. Norway is a very small country and should impose MUCH harsher restrictions on immigration in general. That goes for native Norwegians marrying foreigners, too. I don't care if somebody thinks that's racist, I have a right to retain my own nation and culture.


Erin: No, I'm not going to give multiculturalism any more chances. As I've said, it doesn't work even in theory. We should impose MUCH harsher restrictions on immigration, even by native Norwegians marrying foreigners.


Now , now, Susan and Nils you don't want to slight poor Oeyvind would you...there could be a big bear looking over your shoulder and coddling dear Oeyvind. Look how this poor korean kuntry
girl got admonished when she attempted to factually trounce Øyvind's akademisk ideologies and theoretical constructs...and all i did was engage him in slightly color-fool banter !!! ;).

Sister Ayyy!!sha Nyanaporn-ika Kim
simple korean kuntry girl


When 'experts' ( o.k. i'm putting that entre comillas because Oeyvind resented being considered an expert in islam, so as not to offend him i will use parentheses to denote a pseudo-expert status) like Oeyvind interview this and that Sheikh and other purported islamikkk liberals ( who by the way are in no way any mouth-piece for the majority of islamists/muslims) he may well be receiving stilted information which he(the 'liberal'muslim) would like the liberal/western leftist to hear and to transmit to the rest of the innocent and naive westerners ( and for that matter easterners) . A most revealing flaw in Oeyvinds world view is that Issslam is a pluralistic religion...the word religion is a misnomer -- Cult is more like it. So when you start with a faulty premise naturally you evolve over time a myopic and faulty world view of everything Islam.

Liberal and democracy are antithesis of Islam, by what stretch of imagination does Oeyvind think that Islam permits such ideologies - democracy is of the pagan greeks. Oh yes Turkey is democratic, but mind you it is in a constant state of tension, ready to be torn down any minute by the stricture of islam which underlies turkish society...courtesy of centuries of islamikkk indoctrination.

Consider Malaysia ..a somewhat avant garde muslim country...and yet 2 australian pastors are being arrested for distributing bible tracts. I wonder if Oeyvind would like to interview the chinese of indonesian and the various other minority religious groups of indonesian who are systematically being annihilated? A lot of the reformers that Oeyvind refers to are nominally muslims or have evolve an ideology that is so alien to the core teachings of the Quran that they may as well be apostate, but they cling to the Islam banner more out of socio-ethnic and traditional pride more than anything else.

More on that later. Gotta run.

Sister Ayesha N. Kim


Fjordman: Those days are long gone for better and/or for worse. We can only hope that the good parts outweight the bad.

Also, you are wrong: multiculturalism CAN and DOES work. You need look no further than the United States. Talk about one huge melting pot.

Sure, things got off to a rocky start but look how far we have come since the birth of our nation? And we still have a ways to go (there are always room for improvements).

In the last 20 years alone this world became pronouncedly smaller thanks to technology, economics, and politics.

Get used to it.

Do also propose Norway adopt harsher restrictions on the types of foods allowed to be sold/served in Norway as well? All in the name of preserving Norwegian culture? If so, you better say good bye to pizzas and the such.

Personally, I much prefer one of those kick-ass kebabs sold downtown Oslo and Trondheim over lutefisk ANY DAY.

Your arguments should never have been against Multiculturalism but rather the idiots pushing this un-realistic magical "third way" when it comes to having to deal realistically with those different ethnic groups who set foot in your country but who refuse to intergrate themselves into Norwegian society and thus making it more difficult for your average Norwegian citizen.

Best regards,


*.¸¸.•´¨`*»•..•«*´¨`•.¸¸.*Erin*.¸¸.•´¨`*»•..•«*´¨`•.¸¸.*


Erin,

I think you are misunderstanding the term "multiculturalism". Multiculturalism is NOT the melting pot. It's the exact opposite of it, in fact.

Multiculturalism means everybody "keeps" their own culture and doesn't blend in with the host culture (no matter how backward and insane the original culture is).

The melting pot means everybody blends in
together. Everybody acknowledges the same values.

Multiculturalism (aka "tribalism") is destroying the US. The melting pot (aka "assimilation") made us strong.


Multiculturalism is an utopian, anti-Western idea we have no need for. The only way immigration can work is by assimilation. And with non-Muslims. Immigration to Europe is out of control, and the net effects have been decidedly negative.


Oy!

You are absolutely right, Susan!

I was scanning my brain when posting the first time today for that word... a word to describe a multifacet society (people from different cultures & economic scales and still blending and sharing similar values) and obviously I locked in on the term "multiculturalism" and used it the term incorrectly.

MY BAD!

Much apologies to you and everyone else.

Now, I must go and observe the sabbath.

Shabbat shalom everyone!

*.¸¸.•´¨`*»•..•«*´¨`•.¸¸.*Erin*.¸¸.•´¨`*»•..•«*´¨`•.¸¸.*


DIVERSITY! That's the word!

*.¸¸.•´¨`*»•..•«*´¨`•.¸¸.*Erin*.¸¸.•´¨`*»•..•«*´¨`•.¸¸.*



Erin: This is the kind of "diversity" immigration has brought Europe:

London: "USA watch your back, Osama is coming back"

A hundred or more people protesting the alleged desecration of the Quran gathered outside the US Embassy Friday, chanting "kill, kill George Bush" and other anti-American slogans. Many in the crowd covered their faces with scarves. A man with a megaphone led chants including "USA watch your back, Osama is coming back" and "bomb, bomb New York."


Fjordman,

I can understand your point of view and your being leery about 'diversity' ( in quotation marks). Diversity per se is not bad..the problem is we do have one group of humanity under the spell of an evil Cult Ysssshlam - a rapacious cult with a doctrine of infiltration, usurpation and anihilation of the host society.

I would think that hindus, sikhs, buddhists, mormons, catholics, jehova witnesses, protestants, new agers, hare krishna members and all the diverse ethnic groups that belong to this different religions do not present any major problems and tend to assimilate or at the very least co-exist peaceably with each other. Yshhlamites on the contrary belong to the Ummah - a motherbrood bonded together by the common doctrine of us versus them ....and if they do not become members of our cult we will have to anihilate them. Therein lies all yr problems.

Diversity strengthens the society - all the different groups contributing more good than bad - but you do have a parasitic, rapacious and destructive Y-S-L-M gene which whenever inserted into a healthy society will bring about its ultimate demise and utter destruction.

Sister Ayesha Nyanaponika Kim
Specialist in irrational adamic Cults


Susan, Erin & Kim, I agree. Diversity and assimilation is just fine, it's an asset to a society.

Fjordman, I think you are letting the acid levels of your stomach get the better of you. I suggest diet adjustment or medication ;)


Muslims are not abusing family reunion programs to get more of their kin into any country. That implies a gigantic plan. There is no plan. There is no conspiracy.

There are a large number of people with heritage from various other countries marrying people from the same countries as they have their origins from, as a recent report from the Norwegian thinktank HRS points out. This applies not only for Turks and Pakistanis, but also for Sri Lankans and Indians, Etiopians and Bosnians.

I have never denied this. You lie when you claim I do. What I have said in earlier debates, Susan, is that this does not have the demographical impact you claim it has.

In this debate I have demonstrated the following quite clearly:

1. A large number of those emigrating from the Netherlands last year were people of immigrant origins that were returning to their country of origin, for instance Turks.

2. Most of the Dutch-born people that left the Netherlands in 2004 and 2003 (and for that matter earlier years) did leave for Belgium and Germany.

3. The stated reasons for this was in most cases not any worries about immigration nor any fear for Muslims, people were leaving for work and for family reasons.

You choose to read completely clear numbers and statistics in an other mannere to further your own political conclusions - based on factors that are neither clear, nor statistically registered. You act like one of those people who read the Socialist Workers newspapers.

You are quite simply not addressing the problem, instead you are adressing some imagined problem conjured up by a number of websites who explain everything bad in the world with Islam.

That does not mean, however, that there is no problem, and if you cared reading what I state you would have discovered that I also see problems.

There is "white flight" going on, but not from the Netherlands. "White flight" is happening locally, as a result of ghettofication, a worrying effect of unsuccessful immigration policies in a number of European countries, including Belgium, Sweden, the Netherlands, France and (as of now to a lesser degree) Norway. This has for instance been happening in Molenbeek, as I said; I have got a number of reasons for not liking what I saw there.

While I think is a problem, debating it should be done on sober and realistic backgrounds, not on false reading of numbers, extremely doubtful demographics, etc. Except of your contempt for anything Islamic that is what I dislike in your posts, not the fact that you think European immigration politics should change. They should.

Øyvind


Re why people are leaving the Netherlands: Susan quotes anecdotes, Øyvind data. Anecdotes are only as good as the data they illustrate, so where are the data indicating that people flee the Netherlands to avoid ethnic conflict?

Even if you believe the existing data aren't good enough because people lie about why they emigrate, anecdotes still aren't sufficient to prove your point. If we don't have reliable data, then we don't have reliable data. Using a striking anecdote to illustrate an untested hypothesis doesn't make it true.

So again, where are the data?


"Fjordman, I think you are letting the acid levels of your stomach get the better of you. I suggest diet adjustment or medication ;)"


Is that the best you can do, Nils? Cheap personal insults instead of dealing with the issue? Try reading En dansker i Sverige to get some idea of how the situation is in Sweden. I can assure you that neither the exploding street violence nor the spread of organized crime have anything to do with my stomach. And it's going to get worse.

It is amazing to see the level of denial displayed by otherwise intelligent people here.


Here is an excellent arguement for extreme caution on unchecked muslim /islamist immigration !

http://www.sullivan-county.com/id2/index0.htm

some excerpts :

.....Massive Muslim immigration to the West is becoming a growing danger and must be halted. It must be halted until Muslims can come to grips with reality and at least stop killing each other. Muslims also tend to gather in large, self-imposed ghettos trying to bring many of the barbaric customs with them. This includes honor killings of female relatives and marrying 12 year-old girls off to relatives back home. Note that Black Muslim Movement or Farakhanism is not Islam but a home-grown American cult patterned after the racial hate of the KKK. We must also be wary of violent people that convert to Islam

...............Many Muslims come to the West to escape the violence and poverty in many Muslim nations, only to find it growing here.

...............Until they prove they accept modern ideals on democracy, separation of mosque/state, reject slavery, polygamy, abuse of women and girls, and religious freedom for non-Muslims, they should be barred from any further immigration into the West. (Don't try political correctness or racism crap with me.) ........
.............................................
..........................................
.........


More on the danger of unchecked muslim immigration !

http://www.danielpipes.org/article/77

Sister Ayesha N. Kim



For those datae-hounds, i'll give you data qualitative and quantitative !!! ....but no amount of data will convince the apologists and leftist supporters of mendacious Yshlam!

Race Matters - Ayaan Hirsi Ali
... Finally, last month, she became a refugee again, fleeing the Netherlands. ...
the enormous problems of Muslim women locked up in their Dutch homes." ...Read more ----->

www.racematters.org/ayaanhirsiali.htm - 13k - May 19, 2005

some excerpts from Ayaan Hirsi Ali:

The theme of injustice toward women in Islamic countries has become common in the West, but it has gained fresh currency through Ms. Hirsi Ali's European perspective, her study of Dutch immigrants and her own life. Born in Mogadishu, she grew up a typical Muslim girl in Somalia. When she was 5, she underwent the "cruel ritual," as she called it, of genital cutting. When her father, a Somali opposition politician, had to flee the country's political troubles, the family went to Saudi Arabia, where, she said, she was kept veiled and, much of the time, indoors.

At 22, her father forced her to marry a distant cousin, a man she had never seen. But a friend helped her to escape and she finally obtained political asylum in the Netherlands.

She was shocked when, as a university student, she held a job as an interpreter for Dutch immigration and social workers and discovered hidden "suffering on a terrible scale" among Muslim women even in the Netherlands. She entered safe houses for women and girls, most of them Turkish and Moroccan immigrants, who had run away from domestic violence or forced marriages. Many had secret abortions.

"Sexual abuse in the family causes the most pain because the trust is violated on all levels," she said. "The father or the uncle say nothing, nor do the mother and the sisters. It happens regularly — the incest, the beatings, the abortions. Girls commit suicide. But no one says anything. And social workers are sworn to professional secrecy."

More than 100 women a year have surgery to "restore" their virginity, she estimates in her published work. While only 10 percent of the population is non-Dutch, this group accounts for more than 60 percent of abortions, "because the Muslim girls are kept ignorant," she said. Three out of five Moroccan-Dutch girls — Moroccans are among the largest immigrant groups — are forced to marry young men from villages back home, to keep them under control, she said

Europeans Fleeing "Eurabia" [Weblog] - Daniel Pipes
... Europeans Fleeing "Eurabia" The Miami Herald has an important article today,
... that immigrants to the Netherlands will replace the Dutch who leave. ...>

www.danielpipes.org/blog/355 - 16k - May 19,
2005 ( we got muchisimo data here senores dato-aficionados LOL )

In the wake of the murder of Theo van Gogh several newspapers reported that the Dutch are fleeing their country because of islamic influence and dominance.....
More Dutch Plan to Emigrate as Muslim Influx Tips Scales......One of them Ohran Yilmaz puts it as follows: The influence of the Islam in the Netherlands is enormous. It keeps the younger generation Moroccans and Turks in a limbo. (...) I have decided myself to return to Turkey (...). In a large city in Turkey you are at least not surrounded by the Islamic fundamentalism. (That is different in rural areas). Read more in ----->

http://fomi.ytring.dk/English/GoingBack.htm


Window on the Arab World, and More!: The Dutch Flee, and the New ...
... 27) the Times published another article, this one by Marlise Simons, about
how native Dutch are fleeing the Netherlands because of the growth of Islam. ... read more in ------>

arabworldanalysis.blogspot.com/2005/ 02/dutch- flee-and-new-york-times-is-still.ht ( mucho mucho mas datos aqui !!!)


Hermana Aisha Nianiaponika Kim
especialista en sectas peligrosas


Bjoern and Oeyvind ,

What would you both consider data? Pray elaborate!

If the muslimoids were to show up at youses' houses tomorrow and demand you convert to islam and be circumcised or face the sword ...would that consitute data enough????....ohhh might i add -- circumcised without the benefit of anesthetics or the service of a mo'y :)

Wat drommel !

Zuster Ayesha N. Kim


Oh by the way the above are very legitimate questions ..not something out of the realm of fantasy....this things do happen to minority groups that are oppressed by islamoids...just talk to the minority ethnic groups in indonesia and bangladesh etc that are forced to convert under the sword...in indonesia and even in avant garde malaysia indian and chinese ethnic groups are forced into islam sometimes brutally ..female circumcision and all.....and what makes you folks think that that won't happen to europeans?

Kakanda Aisha N. Kim
Orang Asli


Bjorn:

When data are twisted by government authorities to support the multi-culti agenda (as in the case of Norway hiding the ethnic background of most rapists, as reported by Fjordman), how on earth do you expect a true picture to emerge?

I belong to many discussion groups which include European women, many of them Dutch, British and Scandinavian. I know what they say about how they are treated by Muslim immigrants is true, and I hear about these experiences first-hand, not filtered through some socialist government agency with an agenda to fill, or some hack journalist employed by government-controlled media with the same agenda to fill.

Oyvind you have taken many cheap shots yourself
so you are hardly in a position to criticize the
quality of my posts.

I agree with fjordman: some people here are in denial. You're still bragging to each other about how the Maginot Line is impregnable while the panzer divisions are lining up on the other side of the Rhein.


In Pakistan the hijab is simply unable to protect women from being seen as sexual objects in public. Women with or without hijab, any kind of hijab, are stared at, followed and harassed by men on roads and streets and at bus stations, shopping malls, and other public places. This harassment of women in public places is known in Pakistan as “Eve-teasing.” Women in Pakistan experience Eve-teasing wherever they go in the country, although there are variations from
region to region, city to city, and even within regions and cities.

For example, in the northwestern region, the
conservative and supposedly most Islamic region of Pakistan, women without or with any kind of hijab are likely to be stared at by nearly ten out of every ten men on roads, streets, shopping malls, etc., while in such cities as Islamabad
and Lahore women are likely to be stared at by, for example, four out of every ten men.

Similarly, women in some regions are most likely to be followed by strange men almost from their
doorsteps to their destinations and then back to their doorstep every time they leave their
homes. Women in some other regions of the country might not be followed every time but
often, occasionally, or at least sometimes when they go out in public places. When these women are in a good mood, they jokingly say that
they‘ve acquired a free escort or bodyguard. But in fact this is no joke. It scares women to death. If their father, brother, or husband
comes to know about their ”escort or bodyguard,” the women must surely expect that limitations
will be placed on their right to movement outside the home, or, even worse, that they will
be the victims of honor killing.

http://www.rights.no/webtekst/Gjesteskribent/Skribenten.htm

From the above link, a muslim immigrant to Norway talks about the widespread practice of "Eve-teasing" in her native land, and how shocked she was to discover it wasn't commonplace in Norway.

This is what is being imported into our countries. It should also be noted that "Eve-teasing" isn't only directed at nubile women but at very young girls, girls who would be considered children by Western people but not by Pakistanis -- 10-13. So we are supposed to put up with this type of sexual harassment for adult women as well as for our children?

No one is addressing my central point: why should women and gays and Jews -- and little girls!!!! -- who already live in the West and make contributions to its well-being be deliberately put at the mercy of immigrants from stone age villages in Pakistan, Turkey, Morocco, etc?


I myself come from the conservative northwestern region of Pakistan . When I was in my hometown in northwest Pakistan , I, like most women in my town, wore a burqa hijab, the Taliban-style hijab; when in Peshawar , the capital of the northwestern region of Pakistan , I, like most women of this city, wore chader. Whenever I traveled to Islamabad and Lahore , I had the freedom to take off any hijab – whether burqa, chader, or dopatta. I never wore a headscarf (the kind of hijab often worn in the West), as most women of Pakistan do. Yet wherever I traveled in Pakistan , with or without hijab, I experienced Eve-teasing. It used to be more frequent in the northwest of Pakistan and less frequent in Lahore and Islamabad , but I was exposed to it wherever I went in Pakistan .


Sorry, didn't preview. The paragraph at the bottom should belong in the Pakistani woman's quotes, not with my own words.


--and what makes you folks think that that won't happen to europeans?--

Because they're European.

And I don't the Bjorn has to worry about female circumcision.

But the proof will be in future voting patterns, when muslims get enough power, things'll change to suit them.

--10-13. So we are supposed to put up with this type of sexual harassment for adult women as well as for our children?--

For the 13 y.o., yes, because doesn't Sweden have a law it's legal for a 14 y.o. to have sex? I thought it's 1 of the countries around there.


Fjordman,
I’m sorry you took my comment as an insult; it was not intended as one. I was just referring to the feeling of frustration I feel myself from following the main stream medias coverage on these issues.

The reason I posted these remarks is that I at the time of posting interpreted you as opposing any cultural diversity in society. On that I disagree. Diversity within the frames of our democratic, humane and liberal societies is in my opinion a good thing. On the other hand, immigration out of control, with the scenario of Muslims becoming a majority within 50 years, is plain scary. We need to take measures now before things get out of hand.

I don’t think there is much disagreement between us. Immigration the muli-culti way is proving itself flawed. The same standards must be applied to everyone in society, included Islamic immigrants. Appeasement just makes the transition to western society harder and more painful. I think it is analog to raising kids. Integration trough assimilation is the way to go.


I agree with Nils on diversity. A certain amount of multiculturalism is unarguably a good thing. Look at Russia, China, or Japan for examples on much more racism than Europe and North America. So we undoubtedly benefit from some multiculturalism.

However, there is also little doubt that the muslim quota in Europe is full with regards to the benefit we can have from it.

Myself, I wouldn't mind real immigration of skilled workers and educated people from all over the world (to a reasonable extent). These people could actually contribute significantly, compared to the ones we're allowin in now. Remember, (IMPORTANT for those who don't know) Norway banned _immigration_ in the 1970s. We're just letting in asylum seekers and refugees (though the requirements have become extremely relaxed).


Integration through assimilation is the way to go.

We knew this 100 years ago -- even 50 years ago -- in the US, but after the Left wormed its way into many of our established organizations, they started damning the melting pot and assimilation, and promoting the "value" of multi-culturalism. Multiculturalism is basically tribalism.

For the US, I don't know if it's too late to get the mult-cultis and their world view out of our institutions and prevailing thought modes, or not, and start rebuilding the melting pot identity that is so much a part of our culture. Alas, the multi-cultis are pretty entrenched in my country.

But I'm pretty pissed at the social engineers who have tried to destroy a perfectly good system that made us strong, and replace it with a tribalist system that makes us weak.


Bjørn Stærk | 2005-05-16 10:33:

I don't know, you tell me. You're the one with a theory about Islam, that it is "distilled evil".

The heart of Islam is Nihilism. It's not by fluke of history that Islam managed to make itself persuasive in the Middle East when it has. Its inception was designed as a nihilistic force to undo Greco-Roman imperialism in the ME. Nihilism is the ambition to destroy. In Latin, "nihil" means "nothing". And a nihilist, is a nullifier. Nihilism requires a "positive" to nullify, be it philosophy religion art music reason science morals ethics identity freedom culture history ethnicity civilization. Islam represents all these negations.

Islamists pushed back and destroyed Roman imperialism in the Middle East. In exchange, what Islamists offered the people of the Middle East was the censure of their innate freedom, disdain for the value of life, annihilation of individuality, retrograde primitivism, and vicarious Arab nationalism. Islam's constitution reduced the ME to a level bordering almost on pre-civilization. To the cultures of the Middle East Islam become death -- a psychological, intellectual, cultural dead end. Designed to generate sterility, that's what it produced.


--But I'm pretty pissed at the social engineers who have tried to destroy a perfectly good system that made us strong, and replace it with a tribalist system that makes us weak.--

That's their goal, always has been.


nils- make the Guatemalans and Mexicans offers they can't refuse.

Open up immigration to the Central and South Americans - yes, I know the Mexicans are Nortes.


The more pious a muslim man becomes the more misogynist he becomes. The religious dogma inculcates in him all the fundamentals of misogyny.

To a muslim man, a woman can never be his equal. Women are considered 'children', and worse 'playthings', and 'necessary evil' ...especially good only to slake his primal sexual needs...a 'toy','property',nothing more....a 'chattel' to be possessed and traded and disposed off at his whim.

All over the muslim world millions and millions of women lead quiet life of desperation. Many muslim females themselves support and perpetuate this 'misogyny' because they do not have another frame of reference - call it the 'stockholm' syndrome , if you would like.( recently an iranian female politician called for mandatory stoning of prostitutes teenage girl vagrants on moral grounds prompting a national and international outcry among women and human rights groups ).

Duped and trapped by a vicious cycle of thousands of yrs of religious indoctrination enforced brutally and lethally ...and death is the punishment to those who dare stray from the harem ! Many women in islamist country themselves are part of the problem. From small males are coddled by their mothers and given the choiciest food and preference over their sisters. At a young age a female child is already inculcated with inferiority complex , being constantly instructed to defer to the wishes of their male siblings..preparing them for a subservient role of their future brothers, cousins, uncles, --- the androgenous keepers of their fate. This behaviour is of course perpetuated by the evil meme of Yshlam...a blue-print of misogyny and enlavement of the mind , body and soul of the female of the islamikkk world.

When a child a female is the property of her father, when a youth she is married off against her will and becomes the property of her husband, in old age she again becomes the property of her sons and husbands or male members of her immediate family. She is faceless and nameless - a mere commodity ...a chattel if you will in the Motherbrood , the Ummah. She is always referred to as Umm Abdul, Umm Jaffar, Umm Saleh ( abdul's mother, Jaffar's mom , etc )...she has no independent identity...her worthiness lies only in her male offspring..... She is the incubator for the perpetuation of the minions of Ysssshlam.


For a mind-boggling expose on Sex and Sexuality in Islam go to ---->

http://www.islamreview.com/articles/sexinislam.shtml

here are some excerpts to titillate you !:

"There is more to sex in Islam than meets the eye. Do you care to know that sex is the biggest taboo in Islam? It is a topic that is fraught with fear and seldom discussed by the followers of Islam, except when they are in trouble or when they go to a foreign/infidel country to ‘enjoy’ women there........."

"...... Islam pretends as if sexual organs do not exit either in a male or in a female. A woman is covered from head to toe just to hide her ‘awra,’ which is the Islamic vocabulary for the part of body that arouses sexual desire in a man, or the ‘shame’ of her. ........"


"........Thus, sexual organs are shameful parts of a body! It is a great insult to a woman to depict her entire body as shameful. It is also a great insult to all men. Why? Because, this gives the impression that men are like beasts that are on the street, just on the lookout there for women to prowl on for sex. This is completely nonsense.......


....... While living in an infidel country, I have watched millions of kufur women dressed in very decent as well as not so decent dresses. However, never have I seen a single man jump on a woman in the street to copulate with her, despite her mode of dressing being aphrodisiac or in plain word ‘sexy.’ The Islamic concept of sex is based on Bedouin Arab culture, that is barbaric and uncivilized, to say the least, when compared to today’s world.............."


Now you know the mentality of the kind of people that your insane leftologists and apologists and multi-kkkulturalists are importing into your countries. Congratulations brave new world of Eeeeeuuurabia !

Sister Ayesha Nyanaponika Kim
Specialist in irrational adamic cults
كيم سوك-إيم ....الإخصائيّ في الطّوائف الدّينيّة الخطيرة
金教授.... 危險宗教崇拜專家
김 교수.....위험한 사교 전문가


” Myself, I wouldn't mind real immigration of skilled workers and educated people from all over the world (to a reasonable extent). These people could actually contribute significantly, compared to the ones we're allowin in now. Remember, (IMPORTANT for those who don't know) Norway banned _immigration_ in the 1970s. We're just letting in asylum seekers and refugees (though the requirements have become extremely relaxed). “

I fully agree.

Sandy: nils- make the Guatemalans and Mexicans offers they can't refuse.
Open up immigration to the Central and South Americans - yes, I know the Mexicans are Nortes.

So, just because I don’t think an all-white population necessarily is the best, I’ve suddenly turned into a complete idiot?


Kim Sook-Im: For those datae-hounds, i'll give you data qualitative and quantitative

Actually, you just repeated the same anecdotes, including a few irrelevant ones. (Nobody's denying that Muslim women in Europe are being oppressed, so why bring that up?) From what I can see, Daniel Pipes links to only one article that looks into evidence why people are actually leaving the Netherlands, and it contradicts the "fear of ethnic/religious tension" theory.

It's quite possible that these surveys are inaccurate. Fine, then 1) explain why they're inaccurate, and 2) point to alternative research that supports your point.

Susan: When data are twisted by government authorities to support the multi-culti agenda (as in the case of Norway hiding the ethnic background of most rapists, as reported by Fjordman), how on earth do you expect a true picture to emerge?

I don't know, you tell me. You have a hypothesis that the Dutch are fleeing their country because of Muslims. You need to test that by looking at data. If you believe reliable data doesn't exist, then you're unable to test your hypothesis, and so that's what it remains. There's no shortcut here. No "but the authorities are covering it up so I can't prove it, so that means I'm right". Sure it's unfair. But you're still left with the problem of testing your hypothesis, and no amount of anecdotes or rhetorics can make up for the lack of reliable data.

I know what they say about how they are treated by Muslim immigrants is true, and I hear about these experiences first-hand, not filtered through some socialist government agency with an agenda to fill, or some hack journalist employed by government-controlled media with the same agenda to fill.

Great - but that's still just the basis of a hypothesis, not proof by itself. It tells me there's something interesting here, something we should look into further. Talk to these thousands of people who are leaving the Netherlands, ask them "how important is fear of Islamic fanaticism to your decision to leave?" Then we'll know. Now we don't.

some people here are in denial. You're still bragging to each other about how the Maginot Line is impregnable while the panzer divisions are lining up on the other side of the Rhein.

That argument gets tired real soon. I'm not your dogmatic Norwegian multi-culturalist, and I have no respect for the people who worked so hard to cover up our very real and measurable integration problems. And remember: I'm not saying that I know any better why the Dutch are emigrating. Perhaps you're right, it doesn't sound implausible, (which is why it's an interesting hypothesis.) All I'm saying is that you need to back up your ideas with data. Either you can or you can't. If you can't, it's arrogant to accuse me of living in denial just for being skeptical.

Mika: The heart of Islam is Nihilism.

What does that mean? How many of the world's Muslims would you describe as nihilists, and on what basis? Or are we just describing metaphysical essences again? (If so, please let me know where your theory touches the real world, so that I know how to test it.)


Bjørn Stærk: How many of the world's Muslims would you describe as nihilists, and on what basis?

Well, Mika wrote that the heart of islam is nihilism, not that the heart of muslims are.

Bjørn, your pet peeve seems to be to point out that the religion (or, more correctly, the ideology) called islam is only the product of what muslims want it to be. Actually, isn't islam rather a "recipe" of how muslims should be? The fact that not all muslims are capable of absorbing and implementing the distilled evil of the ideology they are supposed to follow does not mean that the ideology itself is not distilled evil.

Or have I got it all wrong?


One thing that Europe might ponder is that most of the world still emigrates to the US and not Europe. Europe mainly attracts Moslems and they do not seem to integrate. In the US so far Moslems are being integrated. For example, in Washington DC there was recently a rally by Moslems against terror. While small they were very clear that they viewed government separate from religion and were absolute in their condemnation of jehad. I do not see that sort of thing happening in Europe. Any ideas why not?


Oyvind:

As for your commentary on anadotal evidence:
From http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1116469382443

* * *
The Amsterdam Tourist Board felt constrained to issue a warning to gay and lesbian tourists to be careful when they visit the city in light of the rash of anti-homosexual violence perpetrated regularly by gangs of Muslim immigrant youth.

In Sweden today, Pentecostal preacher Runar S gaard is now under police protection after receiving death threats from Muslims angry that he referred to Muhammad as a "confused pedophile" during a sermon. Members of the Kurdish terrorist group Ansar el-Islam reportedly received a religious edict to kill him for his remarks.

Rather than rally to S gaard's defense, in an interview with the Swedish newspaper Expressen, Swedish Islam expert Jan Hj rpe, at the University of Lund, basically accused S gaard of purposely stirring up trouble, saying, "It was a statement from an odd man in an odd sect but the effect is stronger antagonism between different groups.

* * *

Reports from country after country in recent years have referred to entire neighborhoods where ambulances and fire trucks refuse to enter for fear of being attacked by Islamic immigrant gangs. Quite simply, the European response to this violence has been to pretend that it isn't happening as states exercise their sovereignty over decreasing areas of their territory.

* * *


Bjørn,
What you're really asking me is how many millions of individual bacterium pathogen can someone's body absorb before suffering a lethal dose of bacteriaemia and septic shock. I find that a rather reckless and foolish question to ask, don't you?


And particularly so, since our patient is already rather ill, and we've yet to discover an antibiotic for our pathogen.


Ellen, Mika, Herbie, Susan and Nils ,

What Bjoern and Oeyvind is doing is starting out with the wrong premise:

Here is an interesting logic set:

right question - wrong answer = wrong wrong answer

right question - right answer = right answer

wrong question - wrong answer = wrong answer

wrong question - right answer = wrong answer

Yes islam is the recipe or blue print for how muslims should be , the recipe is bad, the cooking is bad, the food is bad ergo patient gets sick.

Also since we have quite a lot of sick patient , clinical anamnesis is an alternate way to test the hypothesis ( this will involve a modified form of statistics, then perhaps what Bjoern has in mind). ......and we have ample reports from sick 'patients' who have already been affected by the foul goulash of Ysshlam !

Another thing is these liberals believe all the nice fairy tales that 'avant-garde' yshlamites tell them when they are interviewed on western t.v. etc....to find out the true yshhhlam and how it is practised go back to the original homeland and see how the real ysshlam is practised and you will get an inkling of the true nature of yssshlam. Remeber the Y S L M meme is a rapacious meme, it is programmed to destroy the host society once it reaches a critical thresh-hold. Look to what it has done to countries that have historically been overwhelmed by this destructive Meme.

In good clinical epidemiologic studies you do not turn a blind eye to data that is already available and evident(somewhere else in the world- be it in indonesia, or siberia, bangladesh or bosnia). If the Y-S-L-M meme has already wreaked havoc on a particular human society/societies across the ocean or in neighbouring villages - you should pay attention to the signs and symptoms and epidemiologic profile and evolution of that disease. What Bjoern seem to be suggesting is to ignore the ample and cogent evidences of the havoc and chaos that this superMeme has wreaked across the globe -- giving us ample longitudinal( over time) and latitudinal ( over geography for variance). Cross comparative sociologic studies of this superMeme and its mutant or variant strains already give us ample and cogent evidences to quickly engage in preventive care.

Ahhhhh but herein lies the saddening and maddening attitudes of the leftists and apologists of the world ---- why spray , why vaccinate, i still do not have numbers to crunch , let us wait till a sizeable number of the members of the tribe of Norweejah fall pray to the Meme ...let us sit down and meditate further , should we set the kill rate at 40% percent...nah , how about 75%....maybe...in the meantime lets just use our Aftenposten to swat at those pesky moschkkkitos that are maybe carrying the Y S L M meme....maybe...ah but i do not have enuf data to even prove that !


Sister Ayesha Nyanyaponika Kim
Specialist in irrational adamikkk Kults

P.S. since Bjoern is so demanding of 'data'...perhaps he can elaborate further the experimental methodologies, the statistical parameters and a bit more detail as to his criteria for proving the hypothesis that he is talking about . We are probably talking more about sociologic studies , which may require a different approach than clinical epidemiologic studies.


Erratum:


....actually that should have read:

"....swat at those pesky 'mosque-itos' ( gettit?)..sorry just can't resist LOL.

Krankenschwester AyyyiiiSha N. Kim


What Bjoern seem to be suggesting is to ignore the ample and cogent evidences of the havoc and chaos that this superMeme has wreaked across the globe -- giving us ample longitudinal( over time) and latitudinal ( over geography for variance). Cross comparative sociologic studies of this superMeme and its mutant or variant strains already give us ample and cogent evidences to quickly engage in preventive care.

With the Islamization of the media, schools, politics, history, this task will become harder and harder.

Great post Kim, btw. 'mosque-itos' ! Ha!


Who was it who defined the word "insanity" to mean an entity who keeps doing the same failed thing over and over again, but expects a different result?

That's the West. We've seen the Indians try to deal with Islam and fail, we've seen the Copts try to deal with Islam and fail, we've seen the Israelis try to deal with Islam and fail, we've seen the Nigerians try to deal with Islam and fail, we've seen the Sudanese try to deal with Islam and fail, we've seen the Thai Buddhists try to deal with Islam and fail, we've seen the Indonesian Christians try to deal with Islam and fail (except the East Timorese who figured out that a complete seperation is the solution), we've seen the Russians try to deal with Islam and fail. . .but we in our arrogance and superiority and oh-so-precious moral superiority and political correctness -- we think WE have the answer, we think WE are the ones who will be able to "co-exist" peacefully with Islam and not fail. . .god help our children and grandchildren who are the ones who will inherit the cruel seed we have planted.



And the same people who are telling us we can "co-exist" with Islam peacefully (despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary) were the ones who also told us that Communism "worked" (despite it failing in very single country it was tried in.)

Is anybody paying attention? The same ideological hucksters who tried to sell us the Gulag are now trying to sell us the Ummah!


Bjørn Stærk wrote:
What does that mean? How many of the world's Muslims would you describe as nihilists, and on what basis? Or are we just describing metaphysical essences again? (If so, please let me know where your theory touches the real world, so that I know how to test it.)

Just out of curiosity: How would you go about testing it? Do you plan on utilizing some intricate nested if, if else, else tests? Are you working on islam-good-or-bad.c, Bjorn?


Susan, the ideology isn't wrong, it's just that the wrong people were in place.

Hugo Chavez will get it right, tho, he's developing socialism for the 21st century.

And of course, if the frogs get their way/vision, this EUSSR will of course work magnificently and bring about world peace, because the "right" people will "finally" be in charge as they've been trying to be for the past 1000 years.....

Well, the beginning of the 21st century certainly is boring, everything old is new again.


--To a muslim man, a woman can never be his equal. Women are considered 'children', and worse 'playthings', and 'necessary evil' ...especially good only to slake his primal sexual needs...a 'toy','property',nothing more....a 'chattel' to be possessed and traded and disposed off at his whim.--

Did you read the synposis of the experience of some of our soldiers going into Afghanistan's hinterlands?

EEEWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!

of the male villagers came out dressed and in makeup, blew kisses and tried to caress our guys.

Women are for babies, men are for sex.


Unless that's been busted by Snopes.....


no, no, no, nils -- they're leaving to come here, the Mexicans have a serious problem w/the Guatemalans coming across their borders, very hardworking people, make them an offer, you'd be better off and help ease our illegal problem.


Via Rantburg:

A ground-breaking Afghan television host whose Western style drew praise from youthful fans and condemnation from Muslim clerics may have been slain with involvement from her own brothers, police said Friday. Shaima Rezayee, 24, who tossed aside her burqa for Western dress and became a host on an MTV-style music show, knew her life was in danger, according to a radio interview she gave not long before she was shot in the head at her Kabul home Wednesday.

Her slaying highlights the struggle between urban young people and their conservative elders for the future of Afghanistan and its Islamic values. Television and radio stations like the one that featured Rezayee — often importing music and styles from other countries — have been leaders in probing the boundaries of acceptability. Rezayee, like other young Afghan women, was denied schooling and forced to wear the burqa in public until the Taliban regime was ousted by the U.S. invasion in late 2001. The Taliban also banned music — even humming on the street. In the years since, several private television and radio stations have started broadcasting. Many operate under tight security, well aware of criticism from religious leaders who oppose women in Western dress, women working, or women singing publicly....

---

BTW, the 1-eyed bandit's been de-turbaned, no longer a mullah - Omar.


This is what muslim immigration has to offer the West: http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Protected/Articles/000/000/005/565uukdg.asp?pg=1. Extract:

"AN OFFICIAL REPORT DEALING WITH religious expression in French schools has become a must read for anyone interested in the Islamization of France. Written under the auspices of the top national education official, Jean-Pierre Obin, the report was not initially released by the Ministry of Education. But it was leaked on the Internet in March and now can be found in its entirety at www.proche-orient.info and other websites.

The 37-page report is the product of a study carried out between October 2003 and May 2004 by a team of 10 inspectors, including Obin. In addition to examining the recent literature on religion and schools in France, they visited 61 academic and vocational high schools in 24 départements, chosen not as a cross-section of public schools, but rather as schools typical of those where religious expression has become a problem because of the high concentration of ethnic and religious minorities. Many are located in ethnically segregated neighborhoods now often referred to, the report says, "by analogy with the United States, as 'ghettos.'"

...

The biggest social change entailed by this Islamization, Obin reports, is a deterioration in the position of females. Teenage girls are forbidden to play sports and are constantly watched by an informal religious police made up of young men, sometimes their own younger brothers. Makeup, skirts, and form-fitting dresses are forbidden; dark, loose trousers are the strongly recommended attire. To go to the blackboard in front of a class, some Muslim girls put on long coats. Often, they are forced to wear the headscarf, or hijab, and forbidden to frequent coed movie theaters, community centers, and gyms, or even to go out at all on weekends. Lots of young women were afraid to tell the Obin team what punishments are in store for them if they disobey. Not only female students but also female teachers, Muslim and non-Muslim alike, are frequently subjected to sexist remarks by male teenagers.

In primary schools, the report cites instances of first grade boys' refusing to participate in coed activities and Muslim children's refusing to sing, dance, or draw a face. In one school, restrooms were segregated: some for Muslim students and some for "French." Some lunchrooms were segregated, by section or table. Some students required halal meat; at one school, the principal provided only halal meat for everyone.

...

Inevitably, the report records rampant "Judeophobia," to use the term in vogue in France. Among even the youngest students, the term "Jew" has become the all-purpose insult. Obin deplores the fact that principals and teachers do not strenuously object to this, treating it simply as part of the youth culture. Even more serious is the increase in assaults on Jews or those presumed to be Jewish. Usually the assailants are Muslim students. Sometimes the victims are, too: One Turkish high-school girl was relentlessly harassed and bullied at school because her country is an ally of Israel.

...

As for history, Muslim students object to its Judeo-Christian bias and blatant falsehood. They loudly protest the Crusades, and commonly deny the Holocaust. Under the circumstances, many teachers censor their own material, often skipping entire topics, like the history of Israel or of Christianity. The report cites one teacher who keeps a Koran on his desk for reference whenever a thorny issue arises. It cites Muslim students who refuse to use the plus sign in mathematics because it looks like a cross. Field trips, especially to churches, cathedrals, and monasteries, are boycotted.

Contrary to conventional wisdom, these pathologies are now present across France. Muslim "ghettos" are found not only in the suburbs of major cities but in towns and villages as well. Obin describes them as islands of counterculture, sealed off and opposed to modern democratic society.

Summing up, Obin explains his disturbing findings as the result primarily of indoctrination orchestrated over years by international Muslim organizations. From an early age, students are taught what to think, what to believe, and to regard their school teachers as liars. The goal of the radical groups seeking to segregate Muslim communities and denouncing integration as oppression, Obin writes, is to take the Muslim residents of France out of the French nation and make them think of themselves as part of the international Muslim community."

Islam, coming to a place near you soon...and it isn't pretty. A key observation for dealing with the mental disease is:

"In a particularly interesting observation, Obin notes that it is the schools that have reached accommodations with the extremists that are most plagued by violence against girls, Jews, and teachers. Schools that refuse to tolerate the intolerable have coped much better with the problems described in the report. As a result, Obin calls for a policy of no compromise with Islamist demands."

So, we have learned that muslim immigration leads to: violence (especially against non-muslims), falling real-estate prices, extensive and brutal female suppression, religious police (amateur squads running around suppressing people, claiming to know the will of God), growing illiteracy (through active bans on singing, dancing, drawing, mathematics, etc.), apartheid conditions (through self-imposed segregation from non-muslims), anti-semitism (blaming others for one's own misery), muslim identity above all (disloyalty to the country of birth), praising of terrorists and their activities (since these are justified by Allah, Muhammad's alter ego, in the Quran), historical revisionism (rewriting history), parallel societies and ghettoization (no desire to integrate at all), indoctrination from an early age (training in how not to think by yourself), absence of criticism and independent thought (cannot criticise the 'holy' book unless one has a sincere death wish; islam - the culture of death); this is what follows in islam's footsteps today as well as through its now 1400 year long history (and a shameful one at that; murder and pillage from the year 632 onwards).

Never cave in to the islamic culture of demand! The demands and claims are infinite, and will not cease until the islamic ideology is enforced in its entirety. This happens in our time, and it is long overdue to put this death cult to sleep once and for all. So spread the word about the disease and combat it intellectually and politically, never let it gain foothold and grow strong anywhere!


MB, Trondheim,

Great post !

"..........Never cave in to the islamic culture of demand! The demands and claims are infinite, and will not cease until the islamic ideology is enforced in its entirety. This happens in our time, and it is long overdue to put this death cult to sleep once and for all. So spread the word about the disease and combat it intellectually and politically, never let it gain foothold and grow strong anywhere........."

...yes spread the word, combat it everywhere...and yet your task is monumentous, especially when you have the liberals, leftists, revisionists and sundry apologists of the west ( & east) who purports to 'understand' Ysssslam and to pontificate on this dangerous Cult to the point of lending credence and invigorating it to the detriment of billions of freedom loving and rational inhabitants of mother earth.

Case in point - in regards to the rising numbers of sexual assaults of norwegian females by muslim men, a certain erudite female professor in Norway blamed the victims for dressing scantily or 'provocatively' when it is well known that such manner of attire will surely invite unwanted sexual advances and assault by muslim men due to their cultural differences.

Sorry folks the guests have taken over the house LOL.

Woe be unto ye Oh Tribe of Norweejah, verily has Loki this day betrayed Midgaard !!!

sister Ayesha Nyanyaponika Kim
Specialist in irrational adamic cults
كيم سوك-إيم

위험한 사교 전문가


People.. listen to Bjørn.. Screaming louder and louder does not make it true. Where is the evidence? Everyone can make up scary stories of the enemies, but that does not make these stories true.


Allen: Well it does not make it false. What exactly would you need to make it "true" besides your own acknowledgement.


Herbie,
Read Allan's post again. But this time with sarcasm tags. ;)


Mika OK :-)


Herbie,

regarding your recent post:

"Herbie, NY NY | 2005-05-22 16:59 | Link
in SSB accused of faulty demographics
One thing that Europe might ponder is that most of the world still emigrates to the US and not Europe. Europe mainly attracts Moslems and they do not seem to integrate. In the US so far Moslems are being integrated. For example, in Washington DC there was recently a rally by Moslems against terror. While small they were very clear that they viewed government separate from religion and were absolute in their condemnation of jehad. I do not see that sort of thing happening in Europe. Any ideas why not? "

Herbie,

I respectfully disagree with you. Muslims in the US far from integrating are sowing discord and disharmony, they are ghetto-izing and surreptitiously making inroads into all aspects of american life.

The ones you see demonstrating have an ulterior motive..to present a facade to distract you from the real agenda, which is to make Yssssssslam more acceptable to the naive and the gullible ( not you per se ). Yssssslam is a mendacious cult, two-faced monster that speaks with fork-tongue where lying is religiously sanctioned and immoral acts are sanctioned as long as it advances the agenda of the Cult
( may i use the term a-la- taquiyyah/deception -- a term most upsetting to Oeyvind ...the purist that he be :))


Some articles that expose the impossibility of muslims integrating into the host society:

........Muslims cannot integrate with others and cannot co-exist with anyone else. They always see themselves as different. It is always "us" the Muslims vs. "them" the Kafirs .......>


http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/sina41126.htm


Dhimmi Watch: British Muslims want Islamic courts
... Islamic history has shown that Muslims never integrate, they only interleave.
... and non muslims cannot be in any position of authority over muslims,

...
www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/004095.php -

Herbie, here is an excellent article by Daniel Pipes regarding muslim integration? in the US. He makes a distinction between 'islamist' and 'non-islamist' muslims. I do not concur with him completely. My contention is that all muslims carry the lethal potential to turn islamists...it is something in the tenet of the Cult that impedes their ability to integrate or assimilate into the prevailing/host society. While still a minority there may be a veneer of harmlessness and integration, but this is an incubation period. Once the carriers of the Y S L M meme reaches critical mass, then the carriers are activated to cannibalize the host society . Ample historical evidences suggest that YSssslam is an uncompromising and rapacious superMeme quiescent only when a minority but always abiding it's time to overcome the host society....>

http://www.israelinsider.com/views/articles/views_0190.htm

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/mission.htm

Abdullah al-Araby writes eloquently on the Islamization of America --->

http://www.booklocker.com/books/1413.html

http://www.webspawner.com/users/islamicjihad17/ ( ...and you think that muslims will ever integrate????)

If you want to understand how insurmountable integration is for muslims then read this article:

A war of worlds: tradition,language and religion

----->>>>>>

http://www.watchofthelord.com/articles/article_A_War_of_Worlds.asp


another article re: how difficult it would be for muslims to integrate!:


http://www.pushhamburger.com/the_facade.htm ( islam the facade and the facts !!!!)

Sister Ayesha Nyanaponika Kim......
Specialist in irrational adamic cults
الأخت عايشة نيانابونيكا كيم ......خبير في الدّيانات الخطيرة


Ahhh, we're screaming, Allan?

Hysterical?

Aimed more towards women???

Look at the map, Allan.

You're Down Under, you should know better what's going on at the Chicom border.

Via Roger L. Simon:

MEANWHILE IN CALIFORNIA: Post 9/11, my home state's Board of Eduation has formally approved the following teaching method on the recommendation of Islamic organizations:


One learning activity, designed to prepare students for the lessons on the Arab-Israeli conflict, divides students into two groups, one called Jeds and the other Pads, representing Jews
and Palestinians in the early twentieth century. The teacher is told to arrange the furniture in the classroom so that the Pads are crowded in a small space into which the Jeds demand to enter. Assuming the role of "the Great Power," the teacher is told to favor the Jeds' arguments and ignore the Pads' seemingly reasonable opposition to the Jeds' entry. The obvious purpose of the activity is to elicit students' feelings about the unfair treatment accorded to the Pads and pre-dispose them to be sympathetic toone side and negative to the other before they have learned anything about the actual conflict in the Middle East.

There're splodydopes down there, too.


I wouldn't agree that Muslims were fully ghettoizing in the US, Sister Kim. We have a few things working in our favor that Europe does not:

1.) Not as lavish a social welfare state. The new comers must work to survive, and this takes a certain amount of integration and assimilation. You can't get a decent job in the US if you show up in a foot-long beard and an Arabic jilbab.

2.) Our history of the melting pot view of immigration, which, though damaged by the multi-culti thought police, is still a big part of our culture.

3.) Christianity and other religions are stronger in the US than in Europe; there are many well-known Muslim converts to Christianity in the US who write, speak and walk about unmolested: Mark Gabriel, the Caner brothers, the Rev. Donald Fareed, Nonie Darwish, etc.

Of course we do have lots of Muslim "scholars" and "spokesmen" walking around bragging about how they are going to turn the US into an
Islamic state (such as Ibrahim Hooper).

Europe in contrast to the US looks like
a "perfect storm" of various conditions converging for a civil war with the fast-growing Muslim ghetto populations: low birth rate of the natives; extreme contempt for the prevailing culture by the intellectual and media elites; fat welfare benefits by which the colonized are paying for the health and welfare of the colonizers; a sparse historical tradition of assimilating immigrants from different backgrounds.


I think, that people in Norway should wake up of their Multi-cultural dream befor it's too late.
Assuming that most immigrantes to Norway come from Muslim countries,people in Norway have to look on the situation of minorities in the Muslim world,for example the situation of the Egyptian christian minority,I can tell you(I've been studying their situation for quite sometime).it's really,really,really,really..... bad and they are their own people,they just didn't convert to Islam when the Muslims invaded Egypt in the 7th century AC and ever since they treat them like dirt.
Imagine how they would treat a european christian


Good analysis of islam, kim.
Excellent comments.

The seed of all this is in the koran, hadiths of bukhari, muslim, etc. and the sira or life of mohammed by ibn ishqak. This trilogy of books form the seamless whole of the ideology. islam is dualistic, not unitary as is our logic or western faiths. There is one set of ethics for muslims and another for non-believers (sharia spells this out). At the islamic table, you can have good food from the meccan koran, or bad food (kill the infidels where you find them, etc.) from the medinan koran. All muslims, from the raging jihadi to the kindly professor, can choose from this menu. The problem is the table of goodies is eternal and forever set in stone, cannot be changed or altered. And it is the table that ALL folks are supposed to eat at. The muslims who are decent and eat the good food cannot condemn the bad ones because the bad rules are "in the book." The good ones try to convert by speech or by the pen, the bad ones by terrorism and murder. We'll never know how many are apostates since they can be killed by their own laws.

Sorry to be so simplistic but it's a simple cult that acts like a cancer cell as kim's analogy shows.



Susan ,

Yes ..I agree with you, although no full scale ghetto-ization has taken place, i assure you the process of ghetto-ing has already begun and is an inevitable consequences of the tenets of the Cult.

Also Karen, Daniel, Mika, Herbie, Susan , Sandy MB,Allan, Earl et al....I agree with Daniel that people of Norway should wake up from their multi-kkkultural dream before it is too late....the dark side of multiculturalism needs to be exposed before it is too late...we are definitely talking about women's issue here big time:

Here's an important link to support my premise--->>>>

http://www.limitstogrowth.org/WEB-text/multiculturalism-fraud.html


Why Multiculturalism Is a Fraud
and a Disaster for Women's Rights
by Brenda Walker

some excerpts from her article:


............Multiculturalism argues that all cultures are equal expressions of our human variety. In fact, some diversity adherents even portray traditional cultures as superior to our crass western ways. Colorful ethnic attire and interesting cuisines do have a certain cachet when seen from a distance. But when the reality of women's brutal oppression worldwide is considered, multiculturalism can be seen as a fraud. Indeed, it supports the continuation of the monstrous crimes against women by its “celebration” of traditional cultures while ignoring the dark side...............

............While the social status of women in western cultures has improved markedly in recent decades, the experience of life for women outside of Europe and America remains largely one of cruelty and coercion. For example, Sixty Minutes reported in 2000 that India is missing 22 million women and girls because of sex-selective abortion, infanticide and the murder of adult women by their husbands for insufficient dowries. In several Latin American countries a rapist can be legally absolved by offering to marry the victim. The scourge of “honor killing” continues around the Islamic world, a practice where thousands of women are murdered for the smallest affronts to rigid social codes. An unproved charge of sexual infidelity or even a husband's paranoid dream may result in a woman being burned or hacked to death. Her murderer receives the approval of family and community for his action.........


(because we are importing misogyny)

..........Taliban USA
A different idea for the American future, i.e., an Islamic one, as advocated by certain immigrants

..........Is Multiculturalism Bad for Women?
A review of the book

............Cause of Central Park Attacks Goes Unreported
Gangs of misogynist men show their violent cultural roots.

..................The Diversity File
A fact-based consideration of diversity, wondering why anyone would believe nonsense like “Diversity is our strength” and other unexamined slogans that clearly undermine the safety and social standing of women.


...........Women, Immigration, And Multiculturalism's Big Lie
Brenda Walker's article on Vdare.com delivers a brief overview of the idea that the diversity ideology is Bull Shit !


..........Baghdad on the Plains
An article from The New Republic illustrating how millennia of misogyny do not disappear with immigration to America. Case in point, when the 13- and 14-year-old daughters of an Iraqi immigrant started acting like Americans, he decided that the answer was to sell them into forced marriages. The subsequent legal intervention was the cause for debate about the requirement that persons living in America follow its laws.

.................Female Circumcision Comes to America
The Atlantic highlights another problem the U.S. is importing because of the unconsidered infatuation with “diversity.”


..........Feminism's Unfinished Business
Katha Pollit's review of “Speaking of Sex” which demonstrates how far women have to go in this country to achieve equality. So why is the government importing millions of retrograde men who disapprove of women's equality and hate American women for their freedom?


.........San Francisco Chronicle: Focus on Sex Traffic (1/24/00)
Out-of-control immigration means increased sex trafficking and slavery brought to America.

......Slaying points to economic, social chasm, leaders say
In May 1999, a black American man was bludgeoned to death by two Yemeni immigrants after he objected to rude sexual remarks made to his 12-year-old daughter.

.....From Haiti to America in servitude
This Saint Petersburg Times op-ed describes the Haitian custom of “restavec” — child slavery (with mostly girls as the victims) now imported to the United States.

......Slavery in America
PBS NewsHour's report shows immigrants preying on other immigrants in extreme fashion.

.......It Matters What Kind of Islam Prevails
Islamic “chauvinists aspire to make the United States a Muslim country,” according to this Los Angeles Times article by Daniel Pipes.

......Presbyterian Culture Clash: Many Asian American members oppose liberal leanings
Korean-Americans oppose ordination of women and gay rights (San Francisco Chronicle, 6/23/00)
( i can assure you that asia has its share of sexisms' and what not...and you have your 'ex-christians who would like to islamize you into a retrograde condition???LOL )


.........Suspect Just 'Having Fun'
Some details about suspects from the Central Park attacks on women as part of Puerto Rican Day (New York Daily News, 6/17/00). “'He doesn't need to do any of that stuff. He has a girlfriend,' said [suspect's father] Andre Vargas, 44, a Dominican immigrant.”

...........Immigrant Women and Abuse
“Sixty percent of marriages in which a husband has control over his wife's legal status in this country involve abuse.” (From National Public Radio, 9/10/00)

..........Polymaritally Perverse
An examination of polygamy, women's rights and the ACLU (The Nation, 10/4/99). When the ACLU had to choose between women's rights and multiculturalism, women lost.


..........Acid Attacks in Bangladesh
Hundreds of young women in Bangladesh are being attacked with sulfuric acid simply because they dared to say no to men. One noted in this article was 13 years old when her refusal of marriage to a 20-year-old man resulted in his attack on her as she slept. Acid as a weapon has the advantage of being cheap, just a few cents worth of battery acid will ruin the life of a young woman. Authorities report an explosion of the crimes in the late 1990s, coinciding with the increased participation of women in public life. This article describes the attack on a nine-year-old child, promised in marriage to a grown man who was angered that he wouldn't get her right away.

........No Excuse for Abuse (Being Arab)
Women in Dearborn, Michigan, fight domestic abuse in the local Arab community. (A poll found that a majority of those men and women approved of physical violence if a woman ignored a man.)

............World Health Organization Fact Sheet on FGM
Includes statistics on prevalence within African countries. For example, in Somalia 98 percent of women and girls are estimated to be so mutilated.

.............Cultural Issues in Defense
When it's culture vs. women in the courts, women generally lose.

............Honor Killing in Pakistan
One murder in particular is highlighted, that of Samia Sarwar in her lawyer's office as she sought protection.

.........Kuwaiti court rejects vote for women
No franchise still.

...........“I Was Sold to a Man”
In Pakistan, women are murdered for refusing forced marriages.

...........Immigrants sent home on charges of harassment
School girls as young as five years old in Greenfield, California, were being harassed by gangs of illegal immigrants, so the INS stepped in and deported them. Local immigrant advocates claim racism even though the town is 85 percent Hispanic and it was Latina moms trying to protect their daughters. Furthermore, after 39 illegal aliens were deported, not everyone in the town was happy about it, though the mothers were relieved. INS spokesperson Sharon Rummery remarked, "Our agents surveilled the situation for several weeks. They saw men coming out of the (game room) and blocking the sidewalks, rubbing themselves on the girls who tried to pass. There were whistles, catcalls and obscene remarks. These were children of every age, from elementary school up through high school age. We felt there was a potential danger there."

......Millions Suffer in Sexual Slavery
“Two million women and children are being held in sexual servitude worldwide, and the easing of border restrictions and other trade barriers has exacerbated the problem.”

....Diversity vs. Freedom: Jihad on the Campus
Women's rights and safety lose again.

.........Kin kill 3 women in Pakistan
A man slashed the throats of his estranged wife, her mother, and his 4-year-old sister-in-law because he suspected the wife of adultery. He was aided by five companions wielding sickles....

Susan...it's not like we have already solved all the problems of misogyny w/in american culture...I work in a large city and am exposed to a 'multicultural' population group. I am alarmed at the increased disregard for the rules and mores of the US and the increased misogyny in the growing multicultural population. This is expecially evident in areas that host high concentrations of immigrants from countries whose religious tenets support misogyny ( guess which one?).

Sister Ayesha Nyanyaponika Kim
الأخت كيم سوك إيم


Sister Kim,

I agree that multi-culti policies are a huge danger for the US, and probably a bigger ultimate threat to us than in Europe, because we are far more "multi" than they are even now.

All I meant is that we have a few advantages that they don't, the major one being our insistence that newcomers either work or starve.

If multi-culti continues to prevail, I shudder to think of the bloodbaths that could come in the US. What frosts me the most is that the Left will wash its hands of its responsibility for the mess, once again, even with violent ethnic clashes taking place right in front of their noses.

Just once I'd like to see the Left forced to take responsibility for the messes it creates. But then that's kind of the attraction of the Left in the first place, isn't it: it relieves
its followers of feeling responsibility for anything.

LGF has a good link to a partially translated interview with Ayaan Hirsi Ali, in which she nails multi-culti to the mast:

http://trans-int.blogspot.com/2005/05/ayaan-hirsi-ali-on-left-and.html

"Because the left is exactly like the Muslims! I wanted to give priority to the defense of immigrant women who are victims of domestic violence. They said to me: “No, that’s not a priority! The problem will take care of itself when the immigrants have jobs and are integrated.” It is exactly what the Imams say who demand that we accept oppression and slavery today because tomorrow, in Heaven, God will give us dates and raisins…. I think we need first to defend the individual. The left is afraid of everything. But fear of giving offense leads to injustice and suffering. The sexual revolution, the affirmation of individual rights, improving the living conditions of immigrants – these were once the great causes of the Dutch left. In their eyes, the simple fact of belong to a minority gives one the right to do anything. This multiculturalism is a disaster. All one has to do is scream “discrimination” and all doors are open to you! Scream ‘racism’ and your opponents shut up! But multiculturalism is an inconsistent theory. If one wants to let communities preserve their traditions, what happens when these traditions work to the detriment of women or homosexuals? The logic of multiculturalism amounts to accepting the subordination of women. Nonetheless, the defenders of multiculturalism do not want to admit it.


Where are the leftists in this thread? Do they not want to face up to the impact of multi-culti on the women's rights they've been saying they support for decades?

Oyvind, Allan from Melbourne, what's your solution? Any ideas for how our governments are supposed to protect your precious Islamic culture, and at the same time, protect me and my daughter from the negative impact of that "culture"? Right now it seems as if number one is all our governments care about.


Susand and Kim:

While correlation is not causation, it is true that the decline of the US appears to have a strong correlation with women getting the right to vote. :-)


Susan:
"Oyvind, Allan from Melbourne, what's your solution? Any ideas for how our governments are supposed to protect your precious Islamic culture, and at the same time, protect me and my daughter from the negative impact of that "culture"?"

I'm not from Melbourne, and I'm no leftist. I believe in individuality and freedom. I have no particular need to preserve Islam either, since I'm a Christian (yes, born-again), and for that reason would want more people to be saved.

The reason I'm critical to your posts is that you are not convincing at all by writing more and more elaborate scare-stories. Anyone with an agenda can sit down with notepad for a few minutes and come up with stuff like that. As Bjørn said, where is the data to back up your claims?

So we're back to what I said earlier, I think it is a whole lot of guesswork interlaced with some creative notepad'ing (or whatever program you use to type stuff).

Herbie:
Well, I won't believe in something I haven't seen sufficient evidence of. Especially when I have reason to doubt their agenda. And making it true inside my head does not make it true outside of my head, now does it?


Bjørn: I'm afraid your blog soon should have the option of registration and a personal profile - with the option to ignore certain people. Susan and kim sook-im are crap-flooding your blog with nonsensical crap time after time.

I'm afraid this post is meta - but instead of actually discussing, they reply by saying "Oh? You want data? Here you are: #insert anecdotal crapflood"

I love a good debate, however, certain elements here refrain from participating - while being Very loud-mouthed.


Rune,
My are'nt we testy ! It behooves you to look at yourself before criticizing others. One man's crap is another woman's issue !...so knock it off buster.

Sister Ayesha N. Kim


Allan, check out http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Protected/Articles/000/000/005/565uukdg.asp?pg=1. What do you think?


This is the problem with Europe.
From the BBC:

“Controversial Italian journalist Oriana Fallaci is to face trial for allegedly insulting the Muslim faith in her latest book, a court in Italy says. Ms Fallaci is being sued by the head of the Muslim Union of Italy, who says The Force of Reason is defamatory.
* * *
In it, she said Western culture was superior to Islam and Muslim immigrants in the West had "multiplied like rats".
* * *
"At the heart of her thinking is the following reasoning: the fight against Islamic terrorism is made more difficult by intellectual terrorism cloaked in anti-racism," Gilles Goldhagen, said in 2002, when a French judge was hearing a case to ban The Rage and the Pride.
* * *
In it, Ms Fallaci argues that Europe is turning into "an Islamic province, an Islamic colony" and that "to believe that a good Islam and a bad Islam exist goes against all reason".

Italian preliminary investigative judge Armando Grasso ordered the formulation of charges against the author, saying the book had expressions which were "unequivocally offensive to Islam".

* * *
Adel Smith, president of the Muslim Union of Italy, sued the writer on 8 April 2004. He says Ms Fallaci has been advocating and spreading hate against Islam and Muslims, sometimes by allegedly distorting real historical facts and inventing others.

The case is being tried in the northern town of Bergamo, where the book was published. The prosecution has 10 days to come up with a charge.”

At bottom what this comes down to is she is to be sued, not for insulting a particular person but for “insulting” a concept. At the same time, Europeans are – to use a quaint American expression too “chickshit” to sue Moslem who preach that Jews and Christians are the sons of pigs and monkeys.

In contrast to this idiocy, the US position is, at least, more vibrant:

“CHARLOTTE, N.C. -- The pastor of a small Baptist church has refused calls to take down a sign posted in front of his church reading "The Koran needs to be flushed," saying Tuesday he has nothing to apologize for.
* * *
"I don't hate Muslims, I just hate their false doctrines."

* * *
Lovelace said he knew before he put up the sign that some people would disagree with its message.

"I expected some people would be offended, just as if someone put up a sign that said the Bible should be flushed," he said. "That would offend me as a Christian.

"This is America and we have the freedom of the press, so I have the right to put up this sign."

Hooper [of the Counsel on American Islamic Relations] said while he agreed the church's pastor has that right, the sign harms Christian-Muslim relations and does further damage to America's weakened international image.”


--Hooper [of the Counsel on American Islamic Relations] said while he agreed the church's pastor has that right, the sign harms Christian-Muslim relations and does further damage to America's weakened international image.”---

Ibrahim Hooper, mouthpiece.


----

--I believe in individuality and freedom. ---

As long as the state/king/daddy takes care of you.

Freedom from responsibility, 1 long party, Allan????

You're sounding like a boomer.


---
While correlation is not causation, it is true that the decline of the US appears to have a strong correlation with women getting the right to vote.

Herbie, check out the Nevada Territory, 1869, IIRC.


--From an early age, students are taught what to think, what to believe, and to regard their school teachers as liars.---

It's OK to lie to non-believers, and they're not supposed to take non-believers as their friends.

--

Look, they only way we're going to know who's vision will be correct is after at least another 2 decades, when the minority starts really using the ballot box. Bjorn and Oyvind are the subjects.

Already happened in England, a talk by that female muslim lesbian was canceled, couldn't guarantee her safety, yada, yada, yada.

---

Hey, can we talk about Kyoto's failure now?

Via No Pasaran:

The public deserves some candor about Kyoto's, and Europe's, actual failure and the radical changes necessary if Europe sincerely believes that American involvement is "critical" in any next steps. What we are witnessing instead is a growing European Union effort for a U.S. bailout from the political corner into which its leaders have painted themselves.....


heheheheheheHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

The cowboys were right again.



Err? Sandy my point was in the US you say what you want and in Europe you get sued for "hurting" some idiot's feelings.

The person who sued Fallaci was also the one that sued to get crosses removed from Italian classrooms on the gorunds that it was offensive to Moslems. Can you imagine if a Jew or Christian proposed that sayings from the Koran should be banned from public schools

As for voting it was a little joke


Rune:

I am not spamming this forum with crap after crap. This is the first subject I have posted on on this blog for several weeks.

I don't understand what I am doing that offends people. When I post data to back up some of my points, I get accused of "spamming" and "posting crap." When I don't post data I get screams of "where are the data."

Allan from Melbourne,what kind of "data" do you want me to post exactly?

Regarding the impact of immigration from less developed cultures to the West (and by less developed I mean those that do not have enlightened views on women's rights) on the women already living here is an important topic which I do not see covered often.

Do you have an opinion or not? The reason I posted comments from Ayaan Hirsi Ali is that she did study all the "data" on multiculturalism and women in Holland for several years, and her conclusions are rather negative.

Do people here not have an opinion on the matter? Again I ask, what is being done to protect gays and women and Jews?

Do people here even deny that Jews are being targeted, even with the **reams** of data that have appeared (although heavily filtered by the media) on the huge rise in attacks on Jews in
Europe?

Shall I post reports on this at least, or will I be accused of "spamming" again?


I've looked back over my posts here and tried to figure out what qualified as "nonsensical spam."

I posted links in a grand total of four posts. One was to a comment on a Dutch blog from a gay woman in Brussels which Oyvind and Bjorn dismissed as "anecdotal." I could have posted more of these but figured they would not be accepted as "data" and also dismissed as "anecdotal."

One was to some articles on Dutch emigration from Expatic in response to a request from Oyvind.

One was to an article by a Norwegian-Pakistani woman on the widespread practice of "Eve-teasing" in Pakistan. This was not commented on at all.

And one was to some comments by Ayaan Hirsi Ali (an elected official in the Dutch govenrment) on multicuturalism. I thought her comments were extremely important and germane to the conversation -- I fail to see what I did wrong in this situation either.

Frankly, I think some people here are avoiding the question because they don't want to face up to the inherent contradictions between multi-culturalism and the rights of certain groups which Ms. Ali pointed out so succinctly.

Alan from Melbourne, do you have a comment on the racist gang rapes in Sydney at least? Did you read the media accounts of what those girls went through, not only in their ordeals, but later when they had to face the accused in court and were spat upon, threatened, harassed, and called obscene names by the families of the accused day after day?

Do those girls count as "data" or only as "anecdotes" in your book?

One of those girls was only 14 years old. A child.


And pardon me, but when I read about Muslim gang rapes in Australia, Muslim gang rapes in France,and Muslim gang rapes in Scandinavia, I do see some sort of data pattern forming here.

I guess I'm just paranoid though.


I know you were joking, Herbie.


Susan:
Sure, it was despicable. Has white people ever gang-raped a black woman in US? I'm rather sure it has happened, but that does not mean that all white people are like this. There is definately a danger of generalising a large group with as many internal differences as the muslims or christians, or white or black. Don't misunderstand me, of course we should hunt down and punish the people who did this, but we should not extend it to other people who has done nothing wrong.
Susan, data from more credible sources would be nice. Blogs are fine for provocing ideas, but I don't trust the data from blogs further than I can throw a car.

Sandy:
"As long as the state/king/daddy takes care of you"
Well, I'm sure you're being taken care of by someone as well, whether it is the state (police and firemen for instance) or husband (father?) working while you are discussing politics online.
I don't really know what you mean by a boomer, but since you're the one saying it, I will take it as a compliment. ;)
Oh, and I see no shame in living on government loans while I study. The money will be paid back after I'm finished with the uni and get a job anyways.

JB:
Definately makes me think, but the factualness of this article should be confirmed though. Should be possible to find out whether that french minister really wrote that report or not.

One google-search on the name of the author.. "Olivier Guitta" showed a rather one-sided agenda through all his articles. Not that it is necessarily bad, but you know.. It makes him less trustworthy unless his articles can be confirmed to be true.


Susan:
Oh, and it seems like the Sydney gang-rapers were caught and put in jail as well.
So the system does work, after all.


Rune: As far as I can see, Susan hasn't done ANY spamming. She was backing up her claims, as requested. I know her a little bit, and you should listen to her. She has both more common sense in general and more knowledge of Islam than the rest of you here have - combined.


Allan:

Well, you can quibble all you want about "anecdotes" versus "data." But we know that men of Islamic culture are extremely harsh on women, even women of their own kind. This is indisputable.

Do we women already living in the West, enjoying the relative freedoms and relative enlightened attitudes of Western men, not have a right to be concerned about the impact of the importation of thousands -- ultimately millions -- of men from such a culture on our lives?

If not, why not?


Susan:
Oh, and it seems like the Sydney gang-rapers were caught and put in jail as well.
So the system does work, after all.

Yes I know, I followed the case in the Australian media closely. But the system "worked" because of push-back from outraged citizens. The authorities initially tried to cover up the racist nature of the attacks by pressuring vulnerable, traumatized teen-age girls to recant the racial/religious aspects of the attacks.

I don't know who is more despicable -- the multi-cultis who tried to pressure the girls to keep quiet, or the rapists themselves.


Also Alan, for how long will justice work? What happens when the Muslim population becomes large enough to affect the outcome of such cases by riots, threats of violence, etc?

Additionally, Alan, the families of the perpetrators violently threatened the victims and their families. With non-Muslims in the majority their threats were disturbing but perhaps only empty promises. There was also a different rape case in Australia involving a group Pakistanis instead of Lebanese; the father was caught trying to contract a "hit" on the victim.

We must look at how Muslims act when they are in the majority.

Kidnapping and "marriage" (i.e. rape) of non-Muslim girls to Muslim men, many of them underage according to Western standards, is a
very big issue in Egypt and Pakistan, for
example. The authorites in these countries look the other way. It is such a big issue among Copts in Egypt, for example, that Coptic civil rights groups actually list this issue as one of their key civil rights demands. The truth is that (some, indeed it may be a great many of them) Muslims in Egypt view the kidnapping, forced marriage and rape of Coptic girls as a way of reducing the number of non-Muslims in their society (the children produced from these couplings are automatically counted as Muslims according to Islamic law.)

I'm not comforted by knowledge of this type, oddly enough.

Fjordman: thank you for your defense. I suspect that Rune was confusing me with another poster here. If not I would expect that Rune point out where I have "spammed" with "crap."


Susan:
I am indeed quibbling as much as I want, and so are you.

"What happens when the Muslim population becomes large enough to affect the outcome of such cases by riots, threats of violence, etc?"
Pure speculation..

"Kidnapping and "marriage" (i.e. rape) of non-Muslim girls to Muslim men, many of them underage according to Western standards, is a
very big issue in Egypt and Pakistan, for
example."
Prove it with some reliable data please..


Fjordman:
"Rune: As far as I can see, Susan hasn't done ANY spamming. She was backing up her claims, as requested. I know her a little bit, and you should listen to her. She has both more common sense in general and more knowledge of Islam than the rest of you here have - combined."
It is very easy to say someone knows what they are talking about when they agree with your view. Oh, and no-one has made you an authority on who knows what by the way. You have not proven yourself to be of sufficient knowledge for your support to be of any help.

Susan, Sandy, Kim, Fjordman:
Please describe what you mean by multiculturalism please? Is it ghetto's? Or is it parallell societies as Schroder called it?
Fjordman, are you against all immigration, even when immigrants assimilate into the wider society?
From what I read, you even support stopping ethnic Norwegians marrying foreigners (non-white that is). That makes me think you hate all non-white foreigners..


Allan, Melbourne,

""Kidnapping and "marriage" (i.e. rape) of non-Muslim girls to Muslim men, many of them underage according to Western standards, is a
very big issue in Egypt and Pakistan, for
example."
Prove it with some reliable data please......"

A muslim is born into the cult and cannot leave it without facing dire consequences...even in so call avant-garde Malaysia which practises 'Islam hadhari'/avant-garde islam...there is a provision in the law allowing for lengthy jail time of a muslim who renounces his faith or convert to another faith. A person marrying a muslim has to convert to his or her faith. So a hindu women who marries a muslim will have to assume or convert to Islam and never the other way around. A muslim man who marries a christian girl from Kansas will expect the girl to convert to islam....his extended family will see to that and apply all sorts of subtle and not so subtle coercion.

If you want to see true Islam in operation ....look to their treatment of minorities ( ethnic and relgious) in countries where islam is the majority religion..case in point the treatment of the minority egyptian coptic christian by the muslim majority... as susan so ably described in her post ( and also here is additional info on rape and forced marriage of coptic girls by muslims in egypt:

http://home.swipnet.se/~w-93281/islamrte.htm ( militant islam targets egypts christian women for conversion).


Susan,

regarding Rune's categorization of my posts ( and assumedly yours too) as crap-flooding - this kind of statement is revealing of his callousness and disrespect/disregard for weighty issues that concerns women world wide re: rape, torture, servitude , indenturedness,and the universal sufferings of womenkind under the yoke of evil religions and the sundry priesthoods and androgeny that practise their evil art of subjugation of womenkind.

His primary concern is the disintegration of his precious 'thread' and i suspect were we to discuss the merits of the US govt and the predominantly male legislature approving the payment for medication for male erectile dysfunction for indigent males who cannot get their 'hard-ons'(...while refusing to pay for female contraceptives or other gynecological procedures)........this subject may sit well with him.

For someone to belittle such weighty moral issues as the suffering of half of humanity by categorizing such serious debate as ' crap ' certainly is revealing of the individual's chauvinistic attitude! ....so you see westerndom & other industrialized nations has still plenty of work to be done to ensure egalitarian status for us women!

Sister Ayesha Nyanaponika Kim


Allan,

"I'm a Christian"
...
"I won't believe in something I haven't seen sufficient evidence of"

where's the data?


I don't see that Suasan hals flooded her comments with spamming or crpap. To the contrary, her comments are cogent if at times spirited. Which is more then the negativity expressed in response


I don't see that Susan hals flooded her comments with spamming or crap. To the contrary, her comments are cogent if at times spirited. Which is more then the negativity expressed in response


Allan, the original report can be found here: http://www.proche-orient.info/images/mbd/rapport_obin.pdf. It is in French (ofcourse the frogs haven't translated it into English ;) ). Anyway, if you don't know French, you probably have friends who do, or you can run it through online translators on the web.

Regarding the practice of 'converting' Coptic girls to islam, a terrible insight into it can be read here: http://www.faithfreedom.org/Testimonials/AhmedShalakamy50521.htm.


HH, Trondheim:
I don't feel any need to prove my Christianity to you, I don't think you would change your mind on muslims for that reason anyways.
I do believe however, that if you believe in your heart, and confess with your mouth. Then you will be saved. No need for ingraved muslim-hate to be a good Christian in my mind.

MB:
Does not seem like your link to the original document works..

Susan:
No need to play indignant of Rune's comments Susan, you don't seem to be the person to get prissy of such a small thing. You are afterall on a warblog.. ;)


” Please describe what you mean by multiculturalism please? Is it ghetto's? Or is it parallell societies as Schroder called it?”

You will find a good definition and brief analysis of multiculturalism in this brilliant post by Morbus Norvegicus. (I have gotten the impression you are Norwegian and I don’t have time to translate.)

http://norvegicus.blogspot.com/2005/05/multikulturalisme-partienes-knefall.html

Would be nice if you were informed on sentral issues in the debate. Unless you prefer shallow.


BTW, nothing wrong with MB's link.


What is your definition of multiculturalism, Allan?

Why put the burden on us?

I'm an American, Allan, I am a mutt.

We've always been multicultural. That's 1 thing that makes US American.

But again, 1 needs 1 overriding footprint to tie it all together.


E pluribus unum

Out of many, one.

That's our motto, that's on our coinage.


Allan, I take it you have Adobe Acrobat Reader installed on your machine, otherwise you can't view pdf (portable document format) files. There is nothing wrong with the link. You can also find the site with the pdf link at http://www.proche-orient.info/xjournal_pol_der_heure.php3?id_article=37986&mots_and=jean%20pierre%20obin&mots_or=&titre=&expression=.


Well, this could get interesting:

Via LGF:

If you thought the Newsweek “Koran desecration” story was already as weird as it was going to get, think again. WorldNetDaily says there’s a possibility that the stories of deaths caused by rioting in Afghanistan were false: Who are those dead Afghans? (Hat tip: lawhawk.)

---

The Afghan Embassy is clamming up, "sensitive."

No one can find any names.


Kim says: "were we to discuss the merits of the US govt and the predominantly male legislature approving the payment for medication for male erectile dysfunction for indigent males who cannot get their 'hard-ons'" NOW YOUR TALKING ABOUT A SERIOUS SOCIAL ISSUE :-) YES SEREE


Bjorn, what about a referendum topic?

Things could get very interesting this weekend.


I've been following this thread with interest. Some people find Islam a danger to their basic values, such as religious freedom, women's rights, democracy, and freedom of thought and speech. Others believe that Islam is not a danger because the statistics don't prove that it is.

OK, we'll "wait" 20 years and then see who's right.

Yeah, sure. Like my voting habits are going to remain on hold for 20 years.

Speaking of voting, like Sandy P I hope that Bjorn will start a thread on the EU vote in France and the Netherlands. According to a link to the BBC via Instapundit, the blogosphere is affecting the French election.

We're able to witness yet another historic outcome of the rise of the blogosphere. It's like being an eyewitness to history as it unfolded after Gutenberg invented moveable type. Although we may have many disagreements on this blog and others, I believe we can all agree that we are privileged to have this amazing tool at our disposal while we witness a historic vote.


Allan from Melbourne, in response to your "question" about the rape and kidnap of Coptic Girls in Egypt:

http://www.copts.net/demands.asp

Please note "Demand #4", a demand that the government of Egypt put an end to the rape and kidnap and forced conversion of Coptic Girls.

Copts.net is the largest Coptic political Association in the US. As such, it would be the Coptic equivalent of the NAACP (civil rights association for black Americans.)

If the rape, kidnap and forcible conversion to Islam of Coptic girls (with government complicity) in Egypt was not a problem, why would the largest Coptic civil rights organization make it one of their top civil rights concerns (i.e. Number 4 on their list of top civil rights concerns)?

Think real hard before you answer. Would you approach a list of civil rights concerns/demands from an African-American organization skeptically?

Regarding multiculturalism:

It is the same definition as "tribalism." People are accorded legal rights, privileges etc. based on their tribal affiliations (race, ethnic background, religious background) rather than on the basis of individual inviolable human rights before the law (the Western ideal.)

The result: an increasingly contentious number of diverse "tribes" fighting against each other for their collectively-determined, race-religion-ethincity-customized "rights". The nation state, under which all individuals are equal based on national affiliation, ceases to exist.

In other words, e pluribus unum becomes "many out of many" not one out of many.

Got it?


BTW, Allan From Melbourne, I've answered your questions, now will you please answer mine:

But we know that men of Islamic culture are extremely harsh on women, even women of their own kind. This is indisputable. Do we women already living in the West, enjoying the relative freedoms and relative enlightened attitudes of Western men, not have a right to be concerned about the impact of the importation of
thousands -- ultimately millions -- of men from
such a culture on our lives?

Answer, please?

If not, why not?


Susan:
"Regarding multiculturalism:

It is the same definition as "tribalism." People are accorded legal rights, privileges etc. based on their tribal affiliations (race, ethnic background, religious background) rather than on the basis of individual inviolable human rights before the law (the Western ideal.)

The result: an increasingly contentious number of diverse "tribes" fighting against each other for their collectively-determined, race-religion-ethincity-customized "rights". The nation state, under which all individuals are equal based on national affiliation, ceases to exist. "

What you are referring is rather possible implications of multiculturalism.

Multiculturalism, also known as cultural relativism, is the claim that no culture (political culture, norm and values) is superior to another.

Wikipedia: “multiculturalism is a view, or policy, that immigrants, and others, should preserve their cultures with the different cultures interacting peacefully within one nation”


Nils, thanks. I think we are trying to say the same thing, but with different words.

"Keeping your own culture" often means securing "special" rights tailored to that culture, on a group basis. Witness the increasing demands from Muslim immigrants for government and employer-provided prayer rooms, halal food, gender-segregated public swimming pools, special laws tailored to their divorce, child custody and marriage beliefs, and the like.

Multiculturalism rarely leads to "peaceful" interaction. As each "tribe" jockeys in position for its own "cut" of the "special rights" pie, the ideal of indvidual equality under the law for all is trampled underfoot and forgotten, and hatred, divisiveness and mistrust grows.


Actually Nils, the multi-cultis **in practice** do not even live up to their own idealistic definition of "cultural relativism." Because they don't **truly** believe that all cultures are equal. What they believe is that all culutres are equal except one -- Western culture -- a culture which is inherently evil and which must be destroyed by all means, fair or foul. That is their belief.

That is why they are even willing to hand over their own daughters, mothers and sisters to brutal non-Western sexual harassers, gang-rapists and the like without a peep, because, in their minds, Western women are sacrificial lambs to be offered to the gods of multi-culti in order to do **penance** for the many inherent "sins" of Western culture.

Like I said, in the minds of the multi-cultis, Western women are Czechloslovakia.


At some point in time, we're going to have to believe what they say, via LGF:

Tehran, 27 May (AKI) - Hojatolislam Gholam Reza Hasani, a representative of Iran’s supreme spiritual leader, Ayatollah Seyyed Ali Khamenei, in Iranian Azerbaijan, has no doubts as to who to vote for in the next presidential elections on 17 June. “You need to vote for Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani,” said Hasani. “This way we will finally be able to have for ourselves the atomic bomb to fairly stand up to Israeli weapons,” said Hasani.

“Freedom, democracy and stupidities of this type cannot be carried over to any part, and these concepts are out of sync with the principles of Islam,” said Hasani, the imam who led Friday prayers in the main city of western Iranian Azerbaijian.

“Islam always spoke with the sword in the hand and I don’t see why now we have changed attitudes and talk with the other civilisations.”


There will be very few times when I compliment frogs, but this is one of them.

The Quebecois have their head on straight on this, voting down Sharia.

Quebec — Quebec has rejected the use of Islamic tribunals, which can be used to settle family disputes, in the province. In a unanimous vote Thursday, the Quebec legislature passed a motion against allowing sharia to be used in the legal system.

“The application of sharia in Canada is part of a strategy to isolate the Muslim community, so it will submit to an archaic vision of Islam,” Fatima Houda-Pepin, a Liberal member of the legislature, said as she introduced the motion against use of the Islamic law.

“These demands are being pushed by groups in the minority that are using the Charter of Rights to attack the foundation of our democratic institutions....”


---

Now if the US could do it, the Jews also have an agreement w/the US if they want.


--The result: an increasingly contentious number of diverse "tribes" fighting against each other for their collectively-determined, race-religion-ethincity-customized "rights". The nation state, under which all individuals are equal based on national affiliation, ceases to exist. --

In short, regression.

If they want that in their country, fine by me. Not in mine. That's how the misery merchants stay in power, segretating everyone. Yet they profit the most.


It is interesting to note that the islamists in the US has foisted themselves on the public ...ex. they have succeeded in convincing the naive US govt. to issue a commemoative Eid stamp celebrating islam's festival as if islam was a majority enuf religion to warrant the issuance of a stamp.....courtesy of the US postal service a branch of the US govt. There are just as many hindus, buddhists, taoists , pagans, bahais , sikhs and what not in the US...it is noteworthy that none of this other groups engages in such vigorous promotion of and demand for their various belief-systems.

The cult members of Yshhlam have even sent religious counselors to NASA to instruct NASA on the finesse of the ysshlamic cult so that other employees and the US govt.employer will observe the proper etiquette in the work place re; muslim employees so as not to offend Ysshlam...welcome to space age dhimmitude LOL.

Sister Ayesha N. Kim

p.s. Sandy's observation:...".misery merchants stay in power, segretating everyone. Yet they profit the most" is most piercing and astute.


"Do you think American policymakers have dealt competently with the KSA (Kingdom of Saudi Arabia)?

Pipes: No, I can think of no country where American interests are less well upheld than with Saudi Arabia. The Saudi ambassador to Washington in part once explained why: "If the reputation . . . builds that the Saudis take care of friends when they leave office," Bandar bin Sultan said, "you'd be surprised how much better friends you have who are just coming into office." In part, the lack of assertiveness results from the phenomenon so well described by a former U.S. ambassador to Riyadh: "it's amusing to see how some Americans liquefy in front of a foreign potentate, just because he's called a prince."

Ledeen: No, both because we have failed to insist on liberalization of the kingdom — it was only a matter of time before we turned on a regime that oppressed women and forbade the practice of western religions even on our own bases and in our own embassies — and because our diplomats somehow failed to notice that the Saudis were creating a global network of extremist schools and mosques, dedicated to the destruction of the Western world. That strikes me as perhaps the greatest of all the celebrated intelligence failures leading up to 9/11.

Schwartz: The failure of U.S. officials to recognize the true nature of Wahhabi-Saudi totalitarianism represents the biggest and worst failure in the entire history of American foreign relations.

A warm mantle of protection was thrown over the Kingdom by oil companies and influential persons from both parties eager to be in the good graces of the Saudi Royal House once they had returned to "private life"; it was a mantle only barely ruffled by 9/11. Baer recalls:

As for the CIA, the Agency let the State Department take the lead and decided simply to ignore Saudi Arabia. The CIA recruited no Saudi diplomats to tell us, for instance, what the religious-affairs sections of Saudi embassies were up to. The CIA's Directorate of Intelligence avoided writing national intelligence estimates--appraisals, drawn from various U.S. intelligence services, about areas of potential crisis--on Saudi Arabia, knowing that such estimates, especially when negative, have a tendency to find their way onto the front pages of U.S. newspapers, where they might have an undesired effect on public opinion. The CIA's line became the same as State's: There's no need to worry about Saudi Arabia and its oil reserves. No need to worry, of course, means business as usual--and for decades now that's meant that almost every Washington figure worth mentioning has been involved with companies doing major deals with Saudi Arabia." - via Wretchard at the Belmont Club


Sandy, Kim: Yes indeed. Make all these different "groups" compete against each other for "special rights" and the title of "world's most victimized people" (ironically, open to all except Jews, who **are** the world's most victimized people) and reap the political power that comes from dividing us up and causing us to hate each other.

"One out of many" becomes "many out of many". A recipe for disaster.


Sandy and Nils:
Sorry I've not been on for a few days, been very busy here, going back to Norway in a few weeks and have plenty of stuff to sell and do before leaving Melbourne.

So if I understand correctly, you don't want new cultures introduced in your country. How far would you go to preserve that? For instance, Norwegian culture is quite different from, say.. South American, or even French, and even English. Those cultures on the other hand are Christian, is that all that counts?
According to your theory, then we would have increasingly fighting inside our own countries no matter what, as long as we have immigrants from other countries, even those from other western countries.

"But we know that men of Islamic culture are extremely harsh on women, even women of their own kind. This is indisputable. Do we women already living in the West, enjoying the relative freedoms and relative enlightened attitudes of Western men, not have a right to be concerned about the impact of the importation of thousands -- ultimately millions -- of men from such a culture on our lives?"
Such protection is already offered within the law. It is illegal, no matter who you are, to be violent against, or (sexually) harass women, or anyone for that matter.


"Such protection is already offered within the law. It is illegal, no matter who you are, to be violent against, or (sexually) harass women, or anyone for that matter."

You mean like the "protection" offered by the Swedish and Norwegian authorities who have covered up the "ethnic" flavor of rape in their countries?

You mean like the "protection" offered by the police to the woman from Brussels who was sexually harassed at an Italian restaurant, and then was told by the restaurant's owner that he would be "sent back to Milan" if he lodged any more complaints against sexual harassment of his customers?

You mean like the "protection" offered by the police to the Sydney teen-agers, who were pressured by the authorities to recant the racial/religious nature of their attacks?

You mean like the "protection" that the police give to the hundreds of Muslim women who are killed in Europe now annual by "honor killings"?

Oh, **that** "protection". Yes, I'm really comforted about that.

So, in other words, your strategy is to throw the sheep to the lions, and then depend on the zookeeper to go in and rescue it, pretty please don't hurt me Mr. Lion.

That doesn't even begin to address such things as discrimination in the workplace, attempts to change laws about things that hurt women like polygamy, the constant demands for sex-segregated everything, even to the point of refusing to shake hands with a highly ranking female politician or business leader -- all such inconveniences we women must put up with in the name of "honoring diversity," eh Allan?

But your strategy is what: invite in the lions, then try to teach them to eat grass instead of sheep?

Oh, o-k-a-a-y, yeah that comforts me a lot. Really, a LOT.



--So if I understand correctly, you don't want new cultures introduced in your country. How far would you go to preserve that?

Allan, Allan, Allan, again, I'm American, a mutt by nature.

No, you don't understand. E pluribus unum. Out of many, one. You're star Trek vision won't be here for awhile.

--According to your theory, then we would have increasingly fighting inside our own countries no matter what, as long as we have immigrants from other countries, even those from other western countries.--

Europe has had 2 bloody wars in the 20th century alone.

1 overriding footprint has kept the peace.

Fighting doesn't necessary mean taking up arms. That's what special interests and lobbyists do.

Britain's trying mighty hard to keep the Poles out for awhile.

I hope Europe enjoys the Napoleonic Code. It's coming to countries near you.

The EUSSR is frogistan's vision and Germany's economic muscle. Only took them 1000 years.

And it's going to be as successful as it's former neighbor. That only took 80 years to go away, but now the "right" people are in charge - you know, the people the peasants aren't allowed to vote for -- and this time it will work.


Allan - we started out multicultural/ethic.

Spanish FLA

frog/canuck/indian (cajun) Louisiana

Southern slaves

Mexican Southwest

Indians

Anglo/German/Dutch/little Jewish North East

Your northern bretheren settled in MN and the Dakotas

The Irish came during the potato famine mid-1800s, the Chinese to build the railroads, and Europe's great unwashed got out of Dodge 1890 - 1910.

Our "internal" wars

The Brits 1812-1815 - where 4000(?) slaves/cajun/whites/indians stood their ground in Louisiana against the lobsterbacks.

- Alamo 1836, Mexico 1847 (Territory dispute w/, Mexico settled our boundaries), Civil War 1861-1865, and then the Indian wars, IIRC.

We got it out of our system in about 100 years.

You white people are still at it.

Again -- Europe has had 2 bloody wars in the 20th century alone.


The great American anglo-saxon hegemon, where pizza is our #1 food and salsa beats out ketchup, and we're buying Chicom trinkets like they're going out of style.

While I don't qualify under their rules, I do have Cherokee blood. A lot of Americans do have Indian ancestors.

And that doesn't include the mix from mom and dad.


French voters were said tonight to have resoundingly rejected the EU Constitution, sending a defiant message to France’s political establishment and dealing a blow to plans for further European integration.
As polls closed around the country, the three major French polling organisations all reported a “no” vote of around 55-56 per cent, in line with opinion polls before today’s vote.

---

And again we go back to the beginning, Allan.

Who is the king?

Democracy in action, but what have they been told?

Jean-Claude JunckerYou will continue to vote until you get it right.

This will not stop integration, only slow it down.

It is inevitable, you great unwashed masses.

You will do what we unelected elite tell you to do.

Add EU Referendum to your list if it's not already there, very informative:

...Pending announcement of the French result, this Blog has received an intriguing document produced by the Instituto Affari Internazionali, entitled "The European Constitution: How to proceed if France or the Netherlands votes 'no'".

In short, the authors conclude that, in the event of one or both countries voting "no", the ratification process should be neither suspended nor abandoned. They assert that all member states have expressed a commitment to proceed with ratification by virtue of Declaration 30, appended to the Constitutional Treaty. Member states cannot unilaterally or collectively decide to change the ratification process.

---

Ground up v. top down government.


Via EU Referendum:

Chirac on TV_

You have expressed your sovereign will.

France will remain within the union. Will play its full role in the union.

We are faced with important events. I will defend our country's stance 16th June (when meeting other heads of states/governments)

We have to gather together and defend national interests.

---

Yes, frogistan's national interest to run everyone else.


"It is interesting to note that the islamists in the US has foisted themselves on the public ...ex. they have succeeded in convincing the naive US govt. to issue a commemoative Eid stamp celebrating islam's festival as if islam was a majority enuf religion to warrant the issuance of a stamp.....courtesy of the US postal service a branch of the US govt. There are just as many hindus, buddhists, taoists , pagans, bahais , sikhs and what not in the US...it is noteworthy that none of this other groups engages in such vigorous promotion of and demand for their various belief-systems."

omg: a stamp! (...)

"Make all these different "groups" compete against each other for "special rights" and the title of "world's most victimized people" (ironically, open to all except Jews, who **are** the world's most victimized people)"

It seems in your words that "the jews" have won that cynical competition... pathetic.

"But we know that men of Islamic culture are extremely harsh on women, even women of their own kind. This is indisputable."

Yep we all know that, you are racist, go out of your home and meet someone from "islamic culture" to learn by yourself how wrong you was... They are, in the abolute, like you, despite all that was told you... i won't provide any numbers coz it's pointless, go check by yourself that men, religious or not, can be harsh on women in every even the most civilized countries... I can believe that you can think such things.

"I hope Europe enjoys the Napoleonic Code. It's coming to countries near you."

Sandy fingerprint: i put random pedantic sentences to show the, even more, ignorant how smart i am. To someone interested by the "code civil" and his evolution since 1804... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_code

"The EUSSR is frogistan's vision."

Zz the main extrem-left party, le Parti Communiste, is near 5% in ballots. between two xenophobic words try to not generalize.
Despite that the frog can just have said, to stay on your level, stfu or fu, he will let bjorn deal with such xenophobic insult that is credited here as an opinion. The frog won't insult your citizens to compete with you... zZ

"Yes, frogistan's national interest to run everyone else."

We don't invade anyone to "run everyone else". We have, good or bad, our particularities, and want them to be represented as they must be. As everybody else in europe, and we can reach that by concensus in a democratic manner, let's hope that we will take what is the best from every country (obviously not our economical system nor our political class in charge since decades).

Concerning the EU Constitution ratification, we have only wasted time, that's a shame, and i can only hope that Europe won't suffer to long from this bad thing.

Best regards,
Sensi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France


Bonjour Sensi,

Yes today a stamp, tomorrow your school and next week your head !...that is how the islamists operate, slowly but relentlessly like the islamo-borgs of star trek....resistance is futile ! Yssssssssssshlam is a surreptitious and rapacious superMeme once let loose in kuffaar society, it's singular program is to infiltrate and overwhelm the host society.

You should know , in several more years la republique de France will be transformed by the Y S L M superMeme/Genes into alJomhooriyah islaamiyah Faraansiyah الجمهوريّة الإسلاميّة فرنسا
Ha ha ha ha haaaaaaa!

Why don't you read what our famous french movie-star, miss Brigitte Bardot have to say about how islamists are disrespecting french women and frenchmen in general....

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/002185.php


Why are you trying to run away from the truth Sensi...are you afraid to wake up to reality that France is slowly transforming and evolving into Francobia?

Bienvenue a la republique de Dhimmitude!

Soeur Ayesha Nyanyaponika Kim
l'ange de la vérité


Oh Sensi,

here is more about auto-censorship in dhimmi france and europe:

http://www.meforum.org/article/395

here's some excerpt to excite you !

"..........Liberal Muslims and apostates from Islam may be the main targets of armed Islamists but they are not the only ones; non-Muslims are also sometimes victims. In March 1989, French singer Véronique Sanson performed a song titled Allah in a series of shows in the Paris Olympia hall. The song begins with the story of a Lebanese female suicide-bomber, then implores God:

Allah, why the fire and thunder?
Why do you wage this war? . . .
It is you whom they are using.
It is in your name that they are fighting. . . .
If I were you, I wouldn't be proud.43
After just one performance, Sanson received death threats, so she immediately removed the song from her program. "I am not so much afraid for myself. But I cannot run the risk of endangering the lives of my musicians and of the thousands of people in the audience."44

Mostly, however, the main brake on critical discussion of Islam in the West results not from physical threats but from subtle and not-so-subtle forms of censorship. Westerners who have critical things to say about Islam render themselves unemployable. The French civil servant Jean-Claude Barreau, head of the administration for the integration of immigrants, was sacked in 1991 for publishing a book in which he questioned the "golden legend" of the "great Islamic civilization" which is only believed because "man's capacity for self-deception is enormous."45 He called the spread of Islam "one of the great catastrophes in history," pointing out that agriculture collapsed where peasants converted to Islam, a city-based religion. "The Muslims are not the sons but the fathers of the desert." Strong language, certainly, and critics discovered a number of errors of detail in the book, but Barreau was right to point out that similar criticism of Christianity would never have caused his dismissal. Barreau called himself a victim of the taboo on critical discussion of Islam.46

The proliferating anti-racist legislation offers an important new mechanism to punish critics of Islam, and it has already been used to this effect in such countries as France, the Netherlands, and Belgium. This is ironic, for real racism, i.e. belief in the inequality of races, is now definitely at its lowest ebb in centuries. Still, the highly charged accusation of racism is now used for an ever-widening spectrum of non-racist opinions, from xenophobia (which is indeed on the rise) to legitimate criticism of cultural expressions associated with immigrant groups. A law against true racism is not necessarily a bad thing but the anti-racism laws in European countries include the legal creation of a category of "opinion crimes" that are sometimes used to combat opinions which have nothing to do with racism.

In France, the traditionalist Catholic bishop Marcel Lefebvre was sentenced to pay a fine of 5,000 French francs (about $900) for his "racist" statement, to a non-Muslim audience, that when the Muslim presence becomes even stronger, "it is your wives, your daughters, your children who will be kidnapped and dragged off to a certain kind of places as they exist in Casablanca [Morocco]."47 That a prominent bishop can be brought before a court for evoking the historical fact of European slavery at the hands of Muslim slavers is a sign of a new power equation. In contrast, British Muslim leader Kalim Siddiqui was not prosecuted for blaming European civilization for all the evils of the modern world, nor even for publicly calling for the murder of Salman Rushdie.

And Lefebvre got off lightly, the judge having ruled that he had not "actively incited to discrimination," in which case he would have received a prison sentence plus a fine of 300,000 francs. Fines of this magnitude have recently been imposed twice on actress and animal-rights activist Brigitte Bardot for comparing Muslim settlement in France to the Nazi occupation, and for saying: "Tomorrow, the Muslims who cut the throats of innocent sheep to celebrate `Id, may well cut the throat of human beings, as is already being done in Algeria."48

In 1994, the city government of Geneva organized the performance of all of Voltaire's theatre plays to celebrate the famous freethinker's 300th birthday. However, the Muslim community (not Islamists, but state-subsidized cultural foundations) objected to the staging by director Hugues Loichemol of Voltaire's play, first staged in 1742, Mahomet, ou le fanatisme, an attack on religious intolerance based on the Muslim biography of Muhammad in which he orders the murder of his critics.49 The city government withdrew funding for the play and no one dared come forward in response to Loichemol's plea for private sponsorship, so the performance was cancelled.50................."

Sister Ayesha N. Kim


Susan.....

this particular case/excerpt from

http://www.meforum.org/article/395

is particularly disturbing and shows how the multiculturalist , liberalist, apologist attitudes of the dutch themselves have allowed for the serious erosion of democratic and fairminded national values of the dutch....allowing each day for the strengthening of the totalitarian and fascistic ideologies of yssssssssshlam:


THE MOHAMED RASOEL CASE
A dark-skinned immigrant was shouted down by the press and sentenced to a heavy fine by white judges, while his white collaborators were acquitted. No, this was not Alabama in 1952 or Pretoria in 1972, but Amsterdam in 1992. The acquitted collaborators were the publisher and translator (from broken English to Dutch) of a controversial book, The Impending Ruin of the Netherlands, Country of Gullible Fools.53 The main defendant was Mohamed Rasoel, a Pakistani immigrant and the book's author. The charge against him? Of all things, racism. The judge decided that Rasoel had made "unjustified generalizations" by contrasting "soft Dutchmen" with "crude, cruel, corrupt and bloodthirsty Muslims."54

Mohamed Rasoel had warned in his book that the Dutch are mistaken to tolerate the establishment of Islamic institutions and the mushrooming growth of their Muslim population. He predicted that this would lead to a civil war and, at best, the country's partition. Significantly, his first warning to this effect was an unsolicited guest column in a Rotterdam daily during the heat of the Rushdie controversy.55 Unwilling to reveal his real identity, he did grant interviews. The Dutch press frantically tried to uncover his real identity; a television talk show host tried to grab his passport and pull off the shawl with which he covered his face; a Muslim politician was ostensibly willing to talk to him, only to pass his teacup onto the police for the fingerprints. Finally the effort succeeded: he turned out to be a Pakistani cabaret artist living in Edam. Many progressive intellectuals reacted to Rasoel in a vicious way. For example, the Hindu-born secularist Anil Ramdas equated Rasoel with Khomeini, saying that he was "revealing himself as an intentional murderer."56

Rasoel felt vindicated by the verdict, even though it left him with a large debt, as well as by the fact that even before the charge of "racism," a number of bookstores had refused to sell the book:57

It proves that the general thrust of my book is correct, that Dutch society is changing and becoming less tolerant. Freedom of opinion is already being sacrificed. I don't blame this state attorney, he is a nice man but rather dumb and naïve like most Dutchmen. . . . Muslims are allowed to shout: kill Rushdie. . . . When Muslims say on TV that all Dutch women are whores, it is allowed. . . . It is ridiculous and scandalous that I have to justify myself in court for discrimination of Muslims.58

Sister Ayesha Nyanyaponika Kim
burger van planeet aarde en een vrije wereld


The frog won't insult your citizens to compete with you...

No, the Frog will call you RACIST, and then the Frog will proceed to insult his own citizenry. After all, how can so many French people be so stupid (for not voting the way wanted of them). You stupid peasants, you will keep voting until you get it right.

Concerning the EU Constitution ratification, we have only wasted time, that's a shame, and i can only hope that Europe won't suffer to long from this bad thing.


"If the trend continues, Anfindsen believes, Norway will have a non-Western majority in 2050."

Nobody seems to have been commenting the weirdness inside that sentence of the paragraph starting this thread.

See: "Norway...non-Western", then most of you start talking talking about "Muslims" or "Arabs".
So it's hard sometimes to see if it's about conflicting cultural/religious contexts (christianity/islam) or racial ones (blacks/whites) or nationalistic ones (norwegian/non-norwegian).

Small personal story as an intro:
When I began living in Norway I was working at a place between Bødo and Narvik, and when I headed south to Oslo, it was amazing to discover so many people commenting about the "cold" and unpleasing north.Specially insisting on that with me, who is a franco-spaniard. North-Norway is far from beeing "cold" as so many southerners norwegians say.If you want someplace cold you go to Canada or Russia.
From my time in Bodø, Tromsø and so I have seen that the area has more and more russian immigrants, and they aren't complaining about the cold ! Go to Arkhangelsk in winter then we talk about the cold....

What I mean with that intro, is that often, Norwegians are completely missing the point, because they are missing contextual knowledge of actual facts.
Here while there is a concern about the population beeing diluted, instead of strictly talking about "norwegians" it's much about "westerners/yuropeans" or "non-westerners".
It could be funny that, while in Oslo and Bergen, they will spend the day talking about "non-westerner" or "arab" or "muslim" threat, a third part of the country, *which has resources* but which doesn't appear as a pleasant enough place for the lazy southerner, will just turn russian.Hehe.

Another comment about all the thread: with few exceptions, most people here seem to have a relatively narrow horizon.Few exceptions, like Øyvind from Mechelen.
The reason is that norwegians after 2nd WW made themselves very depending on another language which is english.Not that it's bad , nor good, by itself, just that, it's limiting the range of Weltanschauung.For the same reason, many anglo- folk can see only part of the yuropean reality.They lack the linguistical tools needed for a deeper understanding.

Some weird comments easy to clean when facts are shown:

Sandy P (and Susan too), on multiculturalism as evil:
"Multiculturalism gets you balkanization. Look how well that turned out...Separate but equal doesn't work. Been there, done that. Didn't turn out well." (Sandy).

Well, go to Belgium, go to Spain, go to Quebec. It's working.Ie. those societies are stable enough.And it's real multilinguistical culturalism.(not only exotics chinatowns downtown under common english).Even if the different communities live side to side without more friendly relations, that uses to work.For centuries.Then with time you always get mixed people too.

Ok, you'll say: those are westerners.Indeed, that's one of the reason it does work.
But then don't forget my above remark: one day Troms and Finnmark will be more russian than norwegian because russians are not afraid to make value of all the potential resources of the area.

Anyway, that leaves us with the "skin" factor. The point being all those "mørkhudet" and "svartinger".
Here, as a still french guy, I could say as well as an english guy could say too: Hey, some norwegians are afraid just because it's brand new, they never saw it before.But we in England and France have been seing that for more than a century, 'cause all the former colonies.So, Ola Norman, get a beer and relax.
Of course if the "black" factor is conceived as bad because breaking the white homogeneous color of skin here in Norway, well, man, I'm sorry, you'll have to live with it.It's gotta be diluted to chocolate color with time, though.
Then think about one country often cited in comparisons with Norway: USA.You know, all the blacks there.
(btw, the kind of special or specific link/comparison norwegians make with USA is a really weird and not logical, but that's another topic...)

(A note about scandinavian physical aspects, as commented by Erin: "land of blond, blue eye giants". LOL. If you travel enough, you'll see that blond people are mostly in south scandinavia, Netherlands, some baltic areas.And swedes are the ones realy tall, not norwegians often smaller (ta din tran!) than at many other yuropean places.Blue eyes, though, are overall in scandinavia)

About Dutch emigration:

in Belgium, the recent increase of Dutchs is mainly because better real estate conditions, specially in Brabant.Simple as that.
If blacks, "arabs", muslims were the main factor for people to leave their country, man, as Øyvind wrote above, Belgians would massively leave their country.Downtown Bruxelles is nicknamed "Little Morocco/Marrakech".Much more "tainted" than Amsterdam, for instance.

then, if emigrating dutch uses to travel more and more to anglo-saxon countries, I see a damn good reason: they learn english, like scandinavians, early at school, american movies aren't dubbed, and so on.
Such dumb fact must be considered before going ahead building other rationales.

MB, from Trondheim, had a long remark about the role of islam in France.
It's an interesting but complex topic.First one needs to know that muslim people in France aren't arabs, but like in Belgium, north africans.They were living in France for generations.Some of the recent problems did arise only with the younger generation, which is more integrated than their fathers, but which went through some hard economical times and bad employement.Take that and add the special french complex about jews/israel with almost an official denial of existence for years to the palesnitian cause.Then add a hint of escaping suburban heroin and crack addiction by finding a new meaning of life in islam - which is a much easier doctrin than catholicism).To top it: the anglo-american attack on central asian oil fields, which are for the most in more or less muslim areas.
Heh, it makes many factors to make a good chess position.Then quite much thinking to solve it...

Susan came out with a comment about:

--> the role of yuropean welfare: well, if people feel comfortable without an urging need to go work hard to get their living, there's no much reason for them to be discontent and make trouble..
But I do partly agree, because I know personaly that myself I add to work harder and kick my ass much more than any refugee uses to do in Norway, because as a refugee they already get all they need.As an yuropean coming here "freelance" I had to make all the needed job by myself.
But it's not true in the general case,I feel it's more depending on the national group (chinese, french, polish, somalian, pakistanian, etc)

--> the melting pot "attitude" in the USA as a reason for less problems with non-westerners people: wrong if we only talk about the racial part (black status in the USA, chineses long time ago too,etc).For the religeous part (extremist islamism) one can wonder about the % of muslim people in the USA and in France or England.

--> americans more christian. ??
well, the Pope and the Archbishop of Canterbury are still in Yurop.Norge for instance is a lutherian nation with a well established protestant mind.But it has no baptist or methodists biggots a la texas-bushian...
Want a tolerant and understanding christian (protestant)country?:Norway.


That said: specific to Norway is the very little population.So when something happens it's much more visible.Then I have seen by myself that some groups of recent immigrants get hard times and really experience a shock in Norway.Mainly somalians and ethiopians who are quite much in Oslo.
It's really related to Somalians.I mean, I have african friends from Senegal or Central Africa or Tchad, "bantu" people, and they got no integrating problems by themselves (they just experience the floating racism against blacks which is often in the air).And "bantu" people told me that ethiopians and somalians are very different minded.Not that they are guilty for anything or actively resist integration, just that there's a hard layer of difference to get through.
In northern Norway I recall fish factories refusing people from Ceylon and Bengal, because they were just sinking down into complains about mørketiden (polar night) and cold (but as I said in the beginning, north-Norway is *not* really cold !) and used to take weeks off.

ok, i stop here, it's getting too long, sorry.



Sensi, Paris: Yep we all know that, you are racist, go out of your home and meet someone from "islamic culture" to learn by yourself how wrong you was...

Well, there's no such as a muslim race. So to criticize people from an "islamic culture" can never, I repeat never, be racism.

So shame on you, Sensi, for being so ridiculously ignorant.


How typical to accuse me of racism because I don't want to put myself and my daughter into the same sort of situations that Muslim women and non-Muslim everybody have to live in in Muslim countries.

Islam has nothing to do with race. It's a culture and an ideology that is incompatible with Western culture. Period.

Who is the fool who thought that you could import people from cultures where women can often be killed for showing too much swim, and plunk them down in the middle of a culture where women go topless on the beach, and think that this will all end up in Kumbaya-singing-multi-culti rainbows and hearts?


I guess that there are a lot of people who still think that exact thing. How foolish of me to even try to warn differently.


susan,
It's like smokers know they have a higher risk to die a horrible death from lung cancer but they will still smoke, and drinkers know they will die from a bad liver and they still drink..likewise we have folks that go along happily driving on the Highway to Mekkka........just waiting for the slaughter and enslavement , but still nonchalant, lackadaisical and singing kumbaya LOL.

sister Ayesha Nyanyaponika Kim
The oracles of Delphi


Muslims speak with one tongue as long as they are outnumbered, and with another when they are in power. In this context, it is especially interesting to review the (now dead) Ayatollah Khomeini's comments about Iran before and after the founding of the islamic republic: http://www.iranian.com/Opinion/2003/August/Khomeini/. Excerpt:

Before the 'revolution':

"Our future society will be a free society, and all the elements of oppression, cruelty, and force will be destroyed." -- Interview with the German magazine Der Spiegel, Paris, November 7, 1978

"In Iran's future Islamic system everyone can express their opinion, and the Islamic government will respond to logic with logic." -- Interview with international reporters, Paris, November 9, 1978

"We would like to run the Islamic government like Islam at its beginning, so that people know how different the Islamic democracy is from other democracies. If the people of the world know the benefits of Islam, my hope is that they all become Moslems." Interview with a group of young French people in Paris, November 9, 1978

"In the Islamic government all people have complete freedom to have any kind of opinion." Interview with Human Rights Watch, Paris, November 10, 1978

"These words that you have heard regarding women in the future Islamic government are all hostile propaganda. In the Islamic Republic women have complete freedom, in their education, in everything that they do, just as men are free in everything." -- Interview with German reporters, Paris, November 12, 1978

"Women are free in the Islamic Republic in the selection of their activities and their future and their clothing." -- Interview with The Guardian newspaper, Paris, November 6, 1978

"The ranking Shiite religious clergymen do not want to govern in Iran themselves.
-- Interview with France Press news agency, Paris, October 25, 1978


After the 'revolution':

"Don't listen to those who speak of democracy. They all are against Islam. They want to take the nation away from its mission. We will break all the poison pens of those who speak of nationalism, democracy, and such things." -- In a meeting with Iranian students and educators, Qom (3), March 13, 1979

"We have to warn these intellectuals that if they don't stop their meddling, they will be crushed. We have treated you gently so that maybe you would stop your evilness, and if you don't stop, we will have the last word. These American sympathizers and others must know that in just a few hours we can throw them in the trashcan of annihilation any day that we wish to do so." -- In a talk to the Iranian people, August 8, 1979

"Do not interrupt the activities. You all have to obey the Islamic Republic. And if you don't, you all will vanish." -- In a speech to Iranian Air Force officers, Isfahan, September 19, 1979

"Those who are against us are like cancer tumors that need to be removed surgically; otherwise they will corrupt everything."

"These writings, these speeches, these wrong activities, these democratic programs are separations from Islam. All these voices are blasphemy and are atheistic." -- in a talk to the Representatives from Tabriz, Qom, September 19, 1979

"These criminals that have been arrested are not accused, but their crimes have been proven. We only have to prove their identity and then kill them all. There is absolutely no need for a trial. No compassion for them will be allowed. We believe that the guilty party does not need a trial and must be killed." -- In a message to the Iranian people, June 30, 1980

"Dear students, you must watch the behavior and the activities of your teachers and professors so that if, God forbid, they say something wrong, you see them deviating, right away you must report them to the responsible officials. Teachers and professors, you must be alert to watch your own colleagues to see if some of them are trying to teach deviating thoughts during their lessons to the children of our Islamic nation so that they can be stopped. If this does not work, directly communicate with officials. My dear children, you too take care of one another in the best possible way, and if you observe that some enemies in the appearance of friends or schoolmates are trying to attract your friends, introduce them to the responsible officials, and try to do all these things very secretly. Committed mothers and fathers, watch the comings and goings of your children and observe their activities." -- In a message on the first day of the school year, Qom, September 23, 1982

Taqyia (the divine right to lie to infidels in order to strengthen islam's cause) means that one cannot fully trust a believing muslim on anything. Especially in a political context.


And what else did his thugs do?

Lock the doors of movie theaters and burn the people inside because men and women were mixed and they were watching movies.


--Well, go to Belgium, go to Spain, go to Quebec. It's working.Ie. those societies are stable enough.--

Oh, really?

Inside Iberian Notes - Spain

The multitude of Canadian bloggers

Live from Brussels

for starters.

Don't be surprised if Canada breaks up. You really think the money engine British Alberta likes being run by frog Quebec? -- Not for 1000 years, have the Gauls and Anglos gotten along. The only real thing they have to keep them together is what they're not, America. But what are they for, other than it's been that way for a couple hundred years. Between 80-85% of their trade is w/US, they have no military to speak of. They free-ride on US.

It's getting quite testy between the Flems and the frogs in Belgium

And now Mr. Bean might negotiate w/the Basques. And The Catalonians also want their own area.

---How typical to accuse me of racism---

They name-call hoping to shut off discussion. It's their final defense.


--go check by yourself that men, religious or not, can be harsh on women in every even the most civilized countries... I can believe that you can think such things.---

That "harshness" is state-sanctioned?

Everybody does it!

OK, they want to go off the cliff, so you do, to?

I can't believe you used a child's reasoning.

Nice try on the commie %. France wrote that monstrosity, it's not going to work.

It never has.

1st republic - US

5th republic - france

Revolution - America, successful beyond anyone's wildest dreams

Revolution - France, Reign of Terror and then some.


More "anecdotes" from the Benelux:

Dear editor,

Re: Attack on Chris Crain

I quote: "There's still an extraordinary degree of racism in Dutch society. Gays often become the victims of this when immigrants retaliate for the inequities that they have to suffer,"
says director of the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Trans-gender Rights Project at Human Rights Watch, Scott Long.

For Christ sakes, these left-wing nuts don't
know when to quit.

They can't bring themselves to criticise the
Muslim religion if their own life depended on
it.

But God forbid a Christian should do anything. You'll get an earful from the gay left about how
horrible Christians are.

The Marxist multiculturalists who make up the
majority of gay rights groups should be outed
for what they really are — communist punks!

They can't even hold gay bashing Muslims responsible for their actions, they are so enamoured with their strange new religion of multicultural Marxism.

Regards,
Mark Fredefrek

http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?subchannel_id=1&story_id=20465&name=Expat+emails

So women and gays can count on the police to protect us from the ill effects of "multi-culturalism" Eh Allan? Of course we can!


And another:



Dear editor,

Re: Gay capital risks losing reputation after bashing

This story is absolutely indicative of the experience I have had as a gay expat living in Holland for the past 6 years.

My first 3 years were spent in the city centre and I was the victim of a mugging which resulted in my being stabbed multiple times by a Somali youth.

I decided to move to the suburbs rather than live in what I increasingly felt was an increasingly violent and intolerant city.

I love Holland and moved here because of the lure of Amsterdam. I've stayed because of the country, it's culture and the Dutch.

But I still can't abide the government and police's CONTINUING lack of recognition or action to deal strongly with the violence among Holland's Muslim youth.

Perhaps a global shaming or loss of revenue for Holland will shake the police into action, but I remain pessimistic.

Pickpockets are bad enough but how many more gay men must be killed or beaten before Amsterdam loses it's lure as a peaceful and tolerant example for the rest of the world.

Those Dutch who constantly harp on the evils of President George W Bush and the US should first look to their own back yards.

Regards,
Name withheld

Also from expatica.

Notice how the "police" protected this fellow.



just to put things in perspective

http://www.serendipity.li/wot/obl_int.htm


Sandy P:

in Belgium, in Spain, in Switzerland, in Finland, in some other countries in Yurop, Asia or even Africa, there are different cultural/linguistical societies under the same national/federal framework.

It's not always friendly between them, but so long it's working.You can go to Barcelona or to Ghent and you can use both spanish or catala in one case, french or flemish in the other.If you to Charleroi in Belgium or Malaga in Spain you'll use only french not flemish, only spanish not catala.So it's not working both ways overall.It depends on the location and other things.
But all in all it's working.At some historical times, local wars did arise, and you'll always have opposing people wanting a secession.Nothing new under the sun.

I'm sorry it's working.

The canadian situation is really interesting, specially if you compare with what is happening in the USA.
First: excepted the native who were massively wipped out by european settlers (and the very small group of icelanders/norwegians who disappeared at the time of the danish takeover in Norway - danes were never interested in remote territory and let settlers starve...), the first really important group of settlers in the St Laurent and New Foundland areas were frenchs (after the Cartier travels).
Centuries after, when France lost a war against England, they had to give away New France.And brits tried very hard to wipe out the quebecois.(heard about the acadian deportation?).
By now they still make for 1/3 of canadian population. The fact they tried to keep their culture and society seems wrong to you ?
All in all, through the years things got to calm down, that is there's no main conflicts.For the rest some active anglo-canadian still would like to wipe the quebecois, like they wipped out the natives.Of courses there remains few natives so no focus on them, but still much quebecois, so much focus on them.

Moreover, there's some bi-lingual people in Canada, not only in Quebec, but the anglo-french ontarians for instance.

It's working.

(additional remark here.Quebecois speak a form of french, but that is far from making them "frenchs" like frenchs from France.In fact, they are completely different minded, and communication between a frenchy and a quebecois can be extremely hard, not for the wording, but the mind.Same if we consider frenchies and belgians or swisses or africans.So your use of the term "frog" is a complete non-sense...)

Now, were comes in a comparison with a change in the US society: quieres tomar un vaso de margarita con tu plato de frijoles refritos ?

Cultural differences with or without wars and multicultural societies have been existing centuries before the first european went to north America.You just have no idea about timeline, no alternate cultural horizon, and your wording of hatred against what you call "frogs" doesn't make for a reasoning and comment of actual facts.

At some places it even took less time and conflict to get a way a common living than it took in the USA for the blacks to became real citizens.Of course the natives weren't integrated in the great new-born american democracy: they were killed instead.And that was not a necessity.Don't make me ROTFL with arguing about some retrospectively dreamed drops of "indian blood".
Do you want to see natives, in great amount? Cross the border south of Rio Grande.And they said that spaniards did kill all indians.Man! How do you explain the physical aspect of all those people south of Rio Grande ?? Well in fact, no need to go to Mexico, LA will do as well...
So that brings that fact too: the hybrid society which was born in the 16th century, the mix of native spaniards (so europeans) with natives (indians) and depending on the places former-slaves (africans).Not in all countries, far from it, but though definitevely at many places.


in Belgium, in Spain, in Switzerland, in Finland, in some other countries in Yurop, Asia or even Africa, there are different cultural/linguistical societies under the same national/federal framework.

Those "linguistic/cultural" societies resemble each other far more than Islamic culture resembles Western culture. Not a fair comparison at all. Mixing Germanic and Italian culture a good example of "multiculturalism"? Give me a break.

What we are talking about "mixing" here is mixing a culture which thinks that women should be covered from head to toe with yards and yards of black cloth and be severely sexually restricted (and often killed for transgressing this dictate) and a culture which thinks that women should be free to go topless on the beach and have sex with anybody she choses.


Susan, come on girl!

My point isn't that it's allways working.
I guess that the working cases on the long run aren't the most, far from it.

The europeans instances aren't always so easy just because it's westerners.Take inside one linguistical area, english, the case of Ulster/Northern Ireland: war between catholics and protestants with still a floating air of imperial british empire.So?
The very close ethnical and racial proximity of brits/scots and irish isn't enough to tie the communities.
Then take Switzerland: latino-celts of roman linguistical area and germano-celts of germanic linguistical area.Well, they aren't meeting everyday to friendly congratulate themselves around a pint, but the national framework is working.

Right to the point: it's obvious that the radical islam is a bunch of dangerous nuts, that's just not the whole of islam.
After the wave of discrimination and/or defiance against islam, following the bombing of the twin towers in NYC, most muslim communities in Yurop tried to keep an eye themselves on their bad sheeps.

Well, in Oslo, you can see some somalian girls wearing a kind of sheet over her.If she enjoys that, well good for her.Ingunn or Ragnhild will not have to do the same, never.They will go to the beach in sommer as usual.
My bet is that after a couple of generation chadors will almost completely disappear.Well...

Btw, if you're yank: still forbidden to tan titties on the US beaches ? You know, like yuropeans do (and we have nice non-siliconed titties in Yurop...).


Well, in Oslo, you can see some somalian girls wearing a kind of sheet over her.If she enjoys that, well good for her.Ingunn or Ragnhild will not have to do the same, never.They will go to the beach in sommer as usual.

Not when they become a majority or even a
significant minority. Then Ingunn and Ragnhild
will have to play by THEIR rules. That's what I 've been trying to point out all along. The signs are already there if you care to look for them.

Btw, if you're yank: still forbidden to tan titties on the US beaches ? You know, like yuropeans do (and we have nice non-siliconed titties in Yurop...)

I'm officially ignoring the childish Yank-baiting you have displayed since coming on the
board. Save it for Sandy P. It won't work on
me. Sorry.


"Btw, if you're yank: still forbidden to tan titties on the US beaches ? You know, like yuropeans do (and we have nice non-siliconed titties in Yurop...)"

*Erin looks down at her chest and cops-a-feel of her jublees*

Nope. No silicone there.

Wow! And no tan lines, either! Holy shit!

FYI: Despite the lovely rigid and puritanical picture you have painted of America and Americans in general, Antonio, I simply must point out to you that here in the U.S. we DO have have beaches, lake areas, park areas, etc that accommodate those who wish to play out in nature in their Birthday Suits. Big deal! I am guessing that you are the type of person that equates sunbathing in the nude -or partially nude- with being sophisticated, politically astute, and intelligent. Am I right, or am I right? Otherwise, why the incredibly SOPHMORIC and RETARDED remark?

FYI, FYI: It is fast becoming annoying your insistance on purposely misspelling Europe. Unless, of course, you really do not know how to spell Europe. At which case, please forgive me my rudeness towards your lack of intelligence.


Signed,
A Tanned & Silicone-Free Yank

*.¸¸.•´¨`*»•..•«*´¨`•.¸¸.*Erin*.¸¸.•´¨`*»•..•«*´¨`•.¸¸.*


"I'm officially ignoring the childish Yank-baiting you have displayed since coming on the
board. Save it for Sandy P. It won't work on
me. Sorry."

But I will. I will answer the call :o)

I like trying to dispell disillusioned myths held by some of America(ns)


Signed,
A *Still* Tanned & Silicone-Free Yank

*.¸¸.•´¨`*»•..•«*´¨`•.¸¸.*Erin*.¸¸.•´¨`*»•..•«*´¨`•.¸¸.*


--Btw, if you're yank: still forbidden to tan titties on the US beaches ? You know, like yuropeans do (and we have nice non-siliconed titties in Yurop...)--

Why is it always about sex and certain body parts?


Of course, maybe if Europeans started having more sex and use those titties as they're supposed to be used, you'd save yourself from demographically imploding.


--Btw, if you're yank: still forbidden to tan titties on the US beaches ? You know, like yuropeans do (and we have nice non-siliconed titties in Yurop...)--

Why is it always about sex and certain body parts?


Of course, maybe if Europeans started having more sex and use those titties as they're supposed to be used, you'd save yourself from demographically imploding.


---

Separate but equal doesn't work. Never did. Never will.

And of course, that's why the Quebecois threatened to secede if they weren't paid off. Should have let them go.

Ever since Trudeautopia, Canada's been going down, down down.

Can't keep a country together by what pointing out they're not like their southern neighbor.

Alberta has more in common w/the US.


to Susan:

"I'm officially ignoring the childish Yank-baiting you have displayed since coming on the
board. Save it for Sandy P. It won't work on
me."

great to be that firm and strong :)

About the use of "yank": it's not bad meant (when I use it).
Shorter than "american".Like the use of "brit" btw.As I saw often the use of "frog", which is maybe really french-baiting, I don't know, I figured out that nicknames are common use here.(ok, the "frog" obsession is the sickness of Sandy P, not you).
I write often "spaniard" instead of "spanish" because in english when saying "spanish" many hear "spaniard" instead so i just take the shortcut. Such are some historical heritages....
If I wanted to use a funny baiting term I could chose "gringo", which sounds nice anyway.

childish yank-baiting ???
That was not childish to ask if titties can walk free on the beach, without being fined.

to Erin:

the mispelling of Yuropean is a kind of self-ironical joke:

--about phonetics (the english pronunciation of the "eu" being close to the "y" of many european languages. And you know, we poor europeans of non-native english countries can have a funny pronunciation.Hence the self-ironical spelling.)

--about that political maps, often seen on the net:
http://mysterier.org/bilder/world_usa_old.png
where Europe is "Yurop".
It's a classical reference around the web.

(the new variant of "the World according to USA", post-SSSR is that one:
http://mysterier.org/bilder/world_usa_new.jpg)

"Despite the lovely rigid and puritanical picture you have painted"

me? come on! that's Dubya and his friends from Texas.

"I am guessing that you are the type of person that equates sunbathing in the nude -or partially nude- with being sophisticated, politically astute, and intelligent."

well, sorry to deceive you, I'm not.I do not care if people do bath naked or not.Free titties isn't nudity and well I don't care anyway.
Maybe some in some places in Europe do consider themselves sophisticated, blahblahblah by nude sunbathing.Pretty possible of the french famouses hanging around some place on the Riviera (St Tropez and so) and Corsica.I'm not one of them.

Do you know that german "Thermen", places with swimming pools, water massages, hammam and saunas are mixed: no separate areas gents/ladies and that in the sauna areas you *must* be nude (wardens are there to remind you to let swimming suits and towels in racks at the entrance).For a very simple reason: to avoid bacteries.The "moral" interpretation of nudity can change much according to the culture.


Antonio,

If you're interested in a serious discussion of multiculturalism, I might be willing to invest the time. If it's just going to be the usual European rant about "Stupid fat Americans. . .bible thumpers. . .ignorant bigots with no healthcare insurance who murdered the native Americans and enslaved the blacks. . .", illustrated with the typical European passive-aggressive smiley-
face :)("I didn't really mean to insult you or bait you. . well yes actually I DID mean to insult and bait you, but I'm too cowardly to admit it"). . .been there, done that, got the
stupid T-Shirt. Not interested.


Whoops, that should be, "Stupid fat American bible thumpers **who freak out at the site of titties :)**" -- I forgot to add in one of the more essential stupid stereotypical remarks of the Euroleft lock-step marchers. . .oh and must add that smiley-face :) no matter what.


Euro-lefties can't even insult people honestly. Gotta add that stupid "I didn't really mean it -- oh yes I did" -- smiley face. Sheesh!


Susan,

you should maybe watch some "Monty Python" movie to get your humor back.But you could perhaps not appreciate them, and instead consider the whole as "offensive" or a "rant".

"a serious discussion of multiculturalism":

I began to bring arguments to the topic.In Europe we have many different languages, countries, forms of government, and variety of non-european inhabitants and a past history with mainstream muslim cultures (medieval Spain, Balkans, not to talk about colonialism which wasn't located in Europe).

In your last three posts you have been ranting yourself about europeans. ?! while accusing me of ranting about americans, which I haven't been doing.
I could easily rant about Dubya though, but man, 1 of 2 american do, so...

If we try to go back to what I understand is your main point: a growing muslim population which will take over the non-muslims and enslave us.
My point of view is that such opinion is a paranoiac one.It's quite much exagerated.
Arguments can be found for or against, so...


Monty Python RULES!

Awww, Antonio, quit being a Biggus... Dickus...

You were bringing excellent topics to the arguement, but that bit about the chee-chee's, ta-ta's, jublees, titties, errr... whatever nomenclature you used to describe the mammary glands of the female sex was kind of came out of left field --you have to concede that much, yes?


*.¸¸.•´¨`*»•..•«*´¨`•.¸¸.*Erin*.¸¸.•´¨`*»•..•«*´¨`•.¸¸.*

"Are you suggesting coconuts migrate?"


Antonio,

In your last three posts you have been ranting yourself about europeans. ?! while accusing me of ranting about americans, which I haven't been doing.

Sorry, but everything you say I've heard 1000 times already, practically lock-step, as if read from a talking points memo issued to all America
-Bashing EuroLefties(TM). You're not nearly as
original as you think you are. What do native Americans and the Rio Grande have to do with the topic at hand? Nothing. It's just a typical bullet point on the talking points memo: Bullet Point Number 5: "If you disagree with an American on any point, be sure and point out how they murdered all the Native Americans."

Bullet Point Number 6: "If you disagree with an American on any point, be sure and point out slavery and Jim Crow laws."

Bullet Point Number 7: "If you disagree with an American on any point, be sure and point out that they don't have universal health insurance.]
"

Bullet Point Number 8: "If you disagree with an American on any point, be sure and point out what a bunch of ignorant Bible bashers they are who got all hysterical about Janet Jackson's tittie at the Super Bowl."

And so on. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. As I said before. YAWN.


Bullet Point #9: "Illustrate all of your reductive, simplistic and stereotypical comments about Americans and America with stupid smiley faces, so that the Americans won't see you as being **really** responsible for your comments. Remember, 'responsibility' is a 'right-wing' concept."

Sorry Antonio, but I've just seen it one too many times to give a cr*p about it.


@ kim sook-im

hello, don't need to cut and paste a whole article from "the Middle East Forum: Promoting American Interest" because i won't even read it. I have nothing to learn from you. You have a pathological obsession, you are from extreme-right, you generalize on a binary mode. I live in facts and not thru the mind of someone else like you seems to do, i have already been to marocco, algeria, tunisia, turkey, israel and cisjordania, i know their people and cultures and you don't seems to know nothing by your own. I know a lot of people "from islamic culture": they are muslims as you are christian, they are born with it because of their parents, point. They are of course extremists and murders in the name of god all around the world (e.g pro-life murderers near your home), fortunately in each of this cases, these people are still a ridiculous minority. We will fight everyone, religious or not, that try to remove us the right to our self-determination, but we will never generalize like you do. Imho shutdown your pc, keep away from biased sources, and take a ticket of flight towards reality, then you will be objective.

@ mika

«The frog won't insult your citizens to compete with you...
No, the Frog will call you RACIST, and then the Frog will proceed to insult his own citizenry. After all, how can so many French people be so stupid (for not voting the way wanted of them). You stupid peasants, you will keep voting until you get it right.»

Firstly, i say racist and xenophobe to people that are racists and xenophobes.
Secondly, where do you read that i have call stupid the people that have said no?
This is my own opinion and it is not a judgement, that is not regarding voters but regarding the referendum campaign, where populists and demagogues have said that "we will renegociate this", and, of course, we won't. The "no" is really multiple, from extreme-right nationalists to extreme-left revolutionists-communists (sic), some have voted "no" to say fuckoff to the political class and mainly our gov, some just doesn't want europe, some wants an Europe according to their really minority wishes, some were feared by all the intoxication and lies made about the treaty. Thus by saying no, they have only made us, France and Europe, lost time because this is a treaty signed by governments around the Europe, and that we can't renegociate a treaty already ratified by others parliaments; even if we could, we will always reach the barely same concensus, which is made of majorities from each countries and not by multiple and antagonistic minorities...

@ Ellen

«Sensi, Paris: Yep we all know that, you are racist, go out of your home and meet someone from "islamic culture" to learn by yourself how wrong you was...
Well, there's no such as a muslim race. So to criticize people from an "islamic culture" can never, I repeat never, be racism.
So shame on you, Sensi, for being so ridiculously ignorant.»

Ahah, firstly the meaning of the term racism his more elaborated in french than in english. Racism is not any more reserved to the old theory of biological differences and races superiority; in his large and modern acception, it is also to generalize on people according to their ethnic group, religion, nationality or even culture, the term is slowly including xenophobic and social segregation behaviors. By generalizing and giving special abilities/behaviors to "muslims men", you are racist, be sure of that, clap clap clap.

@ MB, Trondheim

«http://www.proche-orient.info/»

I haven't read the files nor why you were linking them so i won't comment on this topic, but i can tell you that from several previous exemples, this website is nothing more than a "propaganda-agency", thus you will hardly find here anything objective.

Best regards,
Sensi

p.s: sry for my english, i'm somewhat bored.


@ Herbie, NY NY

«she said Western culture was superior to Islam and Muslim immigrants in the West had "multiplied like rats".»

«not for insulting a particular person but for “insulting” a concept.»

She is not insulting a particular person, she is only telling you that muslims are rats... She's a xenophobic /racist person like a lot of people and a lot of texts that some of you here are quoting/linking like they were prophets fighting against a censure from islamic lobbies, or sentences coming from the bible/truth-proof sources...

In France we have several texts of law that punish the things below:
- Call with hatred (call to the hate? lol).
- Diffusion of racist ideas.
- Discriminatory acts.
- The call with the hostility and violence.

the people sued in France for such words or acts are mainly crappy islamists or extreme-right people and this is done by the public ministry, associations against racism or jewish associations fighting antisemitism.

I just replace "islam" and "muslim" by something else if that can help you:

«she said Western culture was superior to Jewish and jewish immigrants in the West had "multiplied like rats»

It still doesn't sound xenophobic /racist /antisemitic to you?
I am pretty sure that she would have been sued in france...

Best regards,
Sensi


Susan,

"Bashing EuroLefties(TM)": so you've been fed with what you believe were anti-american stereotypes.I see you never make use of anti-european stereotypes.But if I write, say, hmm, "Bashing AmericanBigots(TM)" I will doing anti-american stereotypes ??


"What do native Americans and the Rio Grande have to do with the topic at hand?"

well,I was refering to an instance of multi-culturalism close to you.I don't know where is the american-baiting here.Go to the shop an take a tin of something, chances are it's in english and spanish.Go the offical site of the white House, here:
http://www.whitehouse.gov
and, you'll see the "Espanol" link. (no other language).
So different ethnies and languages do peacefully coexists inside the same nation.Where in many countries the ethnical aspect isn't important, it's very much in Norway, because immigration and just contacts with other different cultures is completely new.
They are simply re-inventing the wheel of pasionate debates, discussions, fears and so .That did happen long before at other places.Much ado about nothing.
We still get an interesting topic: not about hordes of islamists coming to kill us, but about the slow but real smoothing of the rough edges of islam when it's soaked in western, post-christian societies.
That said if you believe that anything muslim is evil and will not evolve,well.
Exple of evolution: USA, before: killing of natives and slavery , USA, after: multiculturalism and citizenship for blacks: that's what is called an evolution - (it's no USA-hatred, just the description of an evolution).
So evolutions do happen, so why not an evolution of the worst of Islam by deeper contact with non-islamic cultures ?
If some believe strong that such evolution isn't possible, the only way out is to go kill muslims out there, because if you don't they'll try another WTC operation or will invade us.So long, Dubya hasn't demonstrated that he's able to accomplish the "go kill them all" part.
You get better ideas?


¡Hola Antonio...!¿que tal?...wazzup?

If 'titties' and sunbathing in the nude are your specialities...you would be wise to pay attention to the growing islamic influence in Urope.

Citizenry of Urope ( like you )who choose to ignore the growing signs of symptoms of bedouinization of europe transforming it into Eurabia simplifies and facilitates the task of the islamist in their unrelenting domination of the west and the whole world. To imagine that a majority muslim europe would allow for the mores of western europe and modern society( which they consider a sickness ,decadence and an affront to their Allah)is an exercise in futility or demonstration of total stupidity and ignorance !

Look at supposedly avant-garde Malaysia with a plural society of Malays, Chinese, Indians, indigenous and mixed race inhabitants. In several states where radical islam has taken roots, legislation has been approved whereby a non-muslim neighbour may have to obtain special permission from their muslim neighbours if they wish to keep a dog as a pet ! ( this idiotic hatred of dogs stem from several ahadeeths- which are not even 'sahih'/authentic).

In a recent 'mutaqqun'/islamic web-site for muslims in kuffaar-land /dar-ul-harb( land of the infidels ie. where you are living now Señor Antonio!)...advise was given by their in-house imam to muslims living in the west to avoid swimming during the busy hours of the day , in order to avoid exposure to all those kuffaar women and men running around naked on the western beaches.

Rather, the Imam continued...the faithful should visit the beaches during off season, or during sunset where the beaches are more deserted and their family members (especially the womenfolks ) could then frolic in the sand and water covered with a chaddor, hijab, burqa and what not instead of being exposed to the demoralizing 2 piece swim-suit of the kuffaar female beach-goers.........now talk about sensibility - hmmmm devout muslim women, not only have to deprive themselves of healthy sunshine and a dose of Vitamin D , but now they have to exhibit superwomen ability to swim and frolic in stifling hot 90 degrees ambient in Tahiti with ankle long black chaddor, hijab and what not.

Truth is Ysssshlam is a religious front for a theofascist ideology akin to Nazism , nothing more nothing less. The thing that makes this whole thing so vile is that the priesthoods of Ysssshlam have made misogyny and liquidation of infidels( non cult members) part of their religious tenets. To this end a pious muslim is synonymous with a die-hard misogynist! Destroy misogyny and you will have shaken badly one of the pillars of the Cult of Ysssssshlam.

Hermana Aishah Nianiaponika Kim
Specialist in irrational adamikkk Kkkults
الإخصائيّ في الطّوائف الدّينيّة الخطيرة
위험한 사교안에 전문가


kim,

I do agree with many of your points.
ie. some form of islam got to propagate and undermine other cultures here and there.
The somalian islam use to be quite primitive, the indonesian too.I have some stories of friends who were spending 10 years in Indonesia and who just prefered to quit because some places became just to unpleasant.

I still firmly consider that west-Europe is exposed to muslim traditions quite differently because they were themselves exposed for a while to us.Kind of osmotic mechanism.
It was much talked about that when we were considering what to do with turks.
By chance Turkey is a former power with a very specific nationalism which goes over the trivial sense of religious "brotherhood" that plague many other new-born muslims in Africa or Asia.
Then Turkey began the industrialization/rationalisation process which is the trademark western Europe quite soon.

The other important group of more or less muslims is the north african one.It's related to the french history, and algerians have been in France for a loong while.They do integrate and dilute in the population quite fast.Their french citizenship takes over very easily, even if they keep old algerian traditions.Similar to chineses with china towns, chinese food.
Recent problems in France were mostly a side effect and the amount of extremist people isn't that big.
Remember the story about the forbidden chador in french schools? The official imams did discuss the topic with the government, explain it to their community and the law passed.

Norway has pakistanis, iraqis, iranians, turks, somalians: i guess it's the most of the muslims here.
None are culturally or historically connected with norwegian history and society.I don't see them as a big enough group to make changes happen.Moreover the different groups aren't united.And think about all the iranians who where escaping the islamic iranian laws... What I understand of the above statistics, is that by themselves they aren't a good basis for correct extrapolations.
For sure, norwegians do make a strong difference between the concept of citizenship and ethnicity.Such difference makes little sense at other places but here can add to the anxiety.

What i could blame with norwegians: they're way too kind.They should had used much earlier a mechanism to check out that immigrants do know enough norwegian.While some people like balts, poles and russians do learn any language by themselves quite fast and with a natural good will, some other peoples are just getting they money as refugees and not being actives enough.
Well, that's not really related with the topic.

By itself the muslim factor tells little.One must either see if extremist faith do increase over time.Then there's a danger.


Antonio wrote:
"....
By itself the muslim factor tells little.One must either see if extremist faith do increase over time.Then there's a danger"

Therein lies the mistake of your thinking...by the time you wait, the damage would already have been done. You just need to look at the more than ample evidence historically and cross culturally...wherever islam has taken a foothold, it eventually wreak chaos once its membership reaches a critical mass....it is the nature of the superMeme to dominate the host society..it is in its programming....like a superVirus it will overwhelm the host.....resistance is futile !

Hermana Aisha N. Kim
especialista en sectas peligrosas


Sensi, I can see why the French have laws against hate speech and discrimination. Parents of friends of mine "fondly" remember Drancy. My father always remembered an editorial by the founding member of Le Monde, who on the eve of the Normandy invasion, wrote that he was not sure which was worse: the Nazi occupation or the US led invasion -- most particularly when we would visit a friend who landed on the beaches with him who had half his face blown off that day by a German machine gunner.

I, myself, am of the view that the French are still grappling with that question.

The French have nothing to teach the US, unless of course it is unfounded hubris


Sensi the Frog -

Islam is an ideology. But is it also a culture and a way of life. As such, Islam presents a set of ideas and cultural mores that can be judged on their own terms, irrespective of individual muslims. Susan, Kim, Ellen, are correct in their assessment regards Islam. Your sniveling rat behavior is very typical of muzzi taqiyalopes. And that maneuver to call them RACIST and xenophobic would in real life have landed you a punch in the nose from me. And a kick to the balls. And spit on the face. Get my drift?

Now, how about you refute the charges regards of Islam. Why should we consider Islam as an ideology, worthy of tolerance? Should we have shown tolerance to Nazism and Communism cause otherwise would have been RACIST and xenophobic? Why is Islam different?


--AMSTERDAM, Netherlands - Dutch voters rejected the European constitution Wednesday by an overwhelming 63 to 37 percent, according to an exit poll projection broadcast by Dutch NOS television.

The turnout was 62 percent, exceeding all expectations, the state-financed broadcaster said. The vote came three days after French voters defeated the constitution in a referendum.--

Well, the turnout was more than 30% so I guess this could be valid.


From a certain POV, it could be said Britain and France are also xenophobic, they don't want the lower wage Eastern European rabble in too quickly.


Racist, so 20th century, what has that got to do with the discussion?


--By itself the muslim factor tells little.One must either see if extremist faith do increase over time.Then there's a danger.---

Britain now comes to mind.


Now for sweet dreams Brittany starts a successful movement for independence from the hated Gauls :-)


"Now for sweet dreams Brittany starts a successful movement for independence from the hated Gauls :-)"

while off-topic, it's nice to notice that it's a funny point: many europeans would like very much Britain no get out of EU :-))

Myself I 'm sort of believer in most core intuitions of EU.People like Willy Brandt, Felipe Gonzales,etc.Feel quite near to the german european political sensibility.

We have to keep in mind that UK is almost not a member: it's not in Schengen (even a non-member country, Norway, is in Schengen!, I don't know why they asked...), it's not in the euro, and it benefits of other exemptions.
You know: if we have to deal with such friend, we better prefer to deal with real ennemies...


Antonio: Ah? Brittany is on the coast of and a part of France and is not Great Britain :-)


Ummm, Sensei?

Remember when I said Europe would be under Napoleonic code and you told me Civil Code?

From Napoleonguide.com:

Napoleon Bonaparte's Civil Code is the foundation of Europe's modern legal system.
Read about the Civil Code, or the Code Napoleon.

The bottom part at the site is the link.

I say tomato, you say to-maah-to.....


Sensi wrote: "I haven't read the files nor why you were linking them so i won't comment on this topic, but i can tell you that from several previous exemples, this website is nothing more than a "propaganda-agency", thus you will hardly find here anything objective."

Well, the report is written by one of the heads of the French school system, Jean-Pierre Obin. The fact that you haven't read it, but choose to dismiss it on a general basis (leftist rumors about a website) tells nothing about the report itself, only about your (ostrich) attitude. It is still available if you should ever decide to make up your own mind about something: http://www.proche-orient.info/images/mbd/rapport_obin.pdf.


Via Lucianne:

Doormen working in the Danish capital, Copenhagen, are often armed with guns or clubs so as to be able to defend themselves against violent immigrant gangs, the owner of a private security company told Danish media this morning.

http://www.dr.dk/nyheder/fremmedsprog/English/article.jhtml?articleID=256934


@ Sandy P | 2005-05-31 03:19

«Nice try on the commie %»

Yep, but that is real, the Parti Communiste Français is even under 5% with 4.91% at the last legislative elections in 2002.
Once again a debunking of your real ignorance in nearly everything you are spamming here.

http://www.pcf.fr/?iddoc=784&iddos=203

@ Sandy P | 2005-06-01 21:44

«From a certain POV, it could be said Britain and France are also xenophobic, they don't want the lower wage Eastern European rabble in too quickly.»

You can say that there is xenophobic people in both France and Britain, but not that France and Britain are xenophobic...

Sandy P | 2005-06-02 17:04

«Remember when I said Europe would be under Napoleonic code and you told me Civil Code?
From Napoleonguide.com:
Napoleon Bonaparte's Civil Code is the foundation of Europe's modern legal system.»

This code was at that time part of some countries legal system because they were occupied by france... The code napoleon = code civil, there is no problem here, my point is that i can't see why you use this as an argument in your pointless hate against my country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_code

@ Herbie, NY NY | 2005-06-01 16:20

«Sensi, I can see why the French have laws against hate speech and discrimination. Parents of friends of mine "fondly" remember Drancy. My father always remembered an editorial by the founding member of Le Monde, who on the eve of the Normandy invasion, wrote that he was not sure which was worse: the Nazi occupation or the US led invasion -- most particularly when we would visit a friend who landed on the beaches with him who had half his face blown off that day by a German machine gunner.
I, myself, am of the view that the French are still grappling with that question.»

Zz nice flashback in the 40's with this quotation from a guy in a newspaper... what is your point? zZ

imho su with your "WW2 is our last argument", as for the WW1 where you came after the Zimmerman telegram in April 1917, 3 years after the start of the war, you came to help us after the attack on Pearl Harbor while the brits were here from the start, do they claim it all the day, each time we do not share the same point of view? No!
Who was right concerning WMD? Us, France.
Who was here to help you to get your independence? Us, France.
Who has given you half your country? Us, France.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_casualties_by_country
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_World_War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimmerman_telegram
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolutionary_War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Paris_%281783%29

«The French have nothing to teach the US, unless of course it is unfounded hubris»

Nice arrogance from a humble person in an humble country (once again that dickheads' xenophobic stereotype which wants that "french = arrogant") and also a crappy offtopic nonsense. In your humble opinion :The US have something to teach to France? (...)

@ MB, Trondheim | 2005-06-02 17:24

«Well, the report is written by one of the heads of the French school system, Jean-Pierre Obin. The fact that you haven't read it, but choose to dismiss it on a general basis (leftist rumors about a website) tells nothing about the report itself, only about your (ostrich) attitude. It is still available if you should ever decide to make up your own mind about something:»

I know this website not because i have heard rumours from "leftists" (btw i am not from left), i know this website because of the people that have founded it and because i have read a lot of "articles" from them in the past, it is a biased pro-israel propaganda-agency. I have not an ostrich attitude, i am just not interested by what you are debating, it is still my right? ty!

@ mika. | 2005-06-01 16:42

«would in real life have landed you a punch in the nose from me. And a kick to the balls. And spit on the face. Get my drift?»

Well, i would then have been forced to show you how close combat superior skills, more than a 15 years of taekwondo and jiu-jitsu practice, will have put a term to both your lack of argument and you.
More on this i am randomly here on this blog reading Kim delirium tremens for months, and he is actually racist.

Best regards,
Sensi


--You can say that there is xenophobic people in both France and Britain, but not that France and Britain are xenophobic...---

Not from comments made by others.

Have you ever thought how your country's coming across?


--

in your pointless hate against my country.

Back at you.


@ Herbie, NY NY | 2005-06-01 16:20

«The French have nothing to teach the US»
btw have you not heard G.w. bush quoting and promoting France and is exemplary system of nuclear plants? ;)

@ Sandy P | 2005-06-03 03:37

«in your pointless hate against my country.
Back at you.»

I don't hate the USA, nor his citizens, nor anybody - i am without hatred.

Best regards,
Sensi


«Have you ever thought how your country's coming across?»
Are you trying to tell me that France is becoming xenophobic? i don't think so, maybe around 15% of the people symbolized by the Front National vote, but not much more.


"I know this website not because i have heard rumours from "leftists" (btw i am not from left), i know this website because of the people that have founded it and because i have read a lot of "articles" from them in the past, it is a biased pro-israel propaganda-agency."

Hmm,... Can I ask how you reached this conclusion? And why would having a "pro Israel bias" as you allege, be such a bad thing from your perspective -- enough to instantly scorn and disqualify. I'm curious as to your mode of thinking here.


It should also be noted Sensi, you have yet to present any argument to counter Kim, or refute anything Kim has posted. Trying to silence criticism of Islamist Imperialism through underhanded tactics by calling others RACIST, isn't going to fly. If Kim, others, are in error, address the specific error.


Sensi: If can't understand my point perhaps you might try reading it again - I made some effort to accomodate you and use simple words


Sensi, it strikes me as odd that you won't read a report about how islam affects your educational system. It is not written by any of the people on the proche-orient site, it is written by a head official of the french school system!

PS: Here's a great site for positive news on all french: http://www.fuckfrance.com/ ;).


hola Sensi,

"...Well, i would then have been forced to show you how close combat superior skills, more than a 15 years of taekwondo ..." ....show off :)

I know tae-kwando too, and won't hesitate to defend myself if attacked by a muslimoid troll. Maybe you should start a 자기방위 학교 to prepare nice french girls like Miss Brigitte Bardot from being assaulted and insulted by muslimoid hooligans that are ravaging the french country-side.

Better still how about starting a Dojo and teach karate to those poor muslim women who are being used as punching bags by their loving muslimoid husbands in frenchfryland?

Sister Ayesha Nyanyaponika Kim
delicate korean kuntry girl

P.s. by the way i have travelled just as much as you have and even more.Right now i am talking to my friends Joleh and Zainab. Joleh is an iranian expatriate and has lived in france. I just returned from france l.5 yrs ago..... so either you have been hiding in a cave or else you have been travelling with a seniors travel group that only shows you the pretty side of the various muslim countries you have visited. I dare you try to convert someone to bahaiism in several of the muslim countries or preach on the street corner about jesus christ...don't even mention Namo Renge Kyo or confucius LOL.

Mercie beaucoup



misconceptions about muslims:

http://www.maniacmuslim.com/misconceptions.html


The Obin report is not written by the people at the website it is published on. Some points are worth to note;

Firstly, the report warns against generalization and overdramatization, as "the phenomenons observed were seen in a small number of institutions".

Moreover, the report is not merely focusing on Muslim schoolchildren, but also on children from other religious groups. Partly it must be seen in the light of the so-called "hijab ban", a ban not only of hijabs, but also of kippas and crucifixes, etc.

In the report it is underscored that "the group of visited schools in no way constitute a representative sample of French schools, not in our field of study and even less in other fields".

I am not done reading this report, as my rather lacking French makes reading it a slow process.

The conclusion so far is however quite clear. The report does not quite say what it is made out to say, and it also places the problems of ghettofication into the context it belongs in; that is without ending up in still being grumpy about the French not joining in on Iraq and without using Islam to explain all the evils off the world. And even without making ayatolla Khomeini into the spokesman of all Islam; telling lies about Islamic concepts fetched off some site that would have published the Protocols of Zions if their hatred was turned otherwise and without concluding how terrible it must be amongst all the immigrants here in Malines, Belgium.

Øyvind


Susan said:

"In short, Non-Western immigration is a feminist issue (although many so-called "feminists" haven't figured that out yet). And if our white male dominated society wants to import huge amounts of people from a retrograde, misogynist, woman-brutalizaing culture, don't forget who suffers the most: your daughters, your wives, your sisters, your mothers. You are sentencing us to a future of rape, sexual harassment, job, judicial and political discrimination, honor killings, and other horrors, which you are all too happy to turn your eyes away from."

Susan, I don't mean to be rude, and as a gay man I completely oppose non-Western immigration into western lands, which will only ensure that we gays have to keep fighting the same battles again and again and again... but I have to say that feminism has gotten us into this mess, and now you think it is going to get us out of it?! Feminism has psychologically neutered men. We are no longer allowed to protect women: that is paternalistic. We are no longer expected to provide for women: that is oppression. We are no longer allowed to protest when our unborn children are destroyed at the mother's whim: that is infringing on a woman's "freedom of choice". Being a good provider to one's wife and a good father to one's child used to be what being a man was all about. Now there's nothing, thanks to feminism, and all of a sudden you expect men to grow the balls that feminists cut off because you're scared about the men from across the sea who actually do resemble the monsters that feminists have long painted all men as? Good luck.


Susan's question:

"But we know that men of Islamic culture are extremely harsh on women, even women of their own kind. This is indisputable. Do we women already living in the West, enjoying the relative freedoms and relative enlightened attitudes of Western men, not have a right to be concerned about the impact of the importation of thousands -- ultimately millions -- of men from such a culture on our lives?"

Allen's response:

"Such protection is already offered within the law. It is illegal, no matter who you are, to be violent against, or (sexually) harass women, or anyone for that matter."

Allen, I think you're missing the point.

As a gay man, I would feel that justice were done if I were beaten to a pulp like Chris Crain in Amsterdam by a bunch of Islamic homophobes once my attackers were tossed in jail. But that doesn't change the fact that I don't want to get beaten up, and I don't see why I should support the mass importation of people from a region of the world where they are taught that it is acceptable to beat me up, even kill me, just because I am gay.

You talk about the "protection of the law" but that "protection" only comes after the fact and isn't protection at all. Jailing a rapist doesn't erase the act of rape. It doesn't cure the rape victim of her trauma. The only real protection women have from rape is the understanding among MEN that rape is wrong. The only real protection I, as a gay man, have against gay-bashing is the understanding among straight people that gay bashing is wrong. Now we are importing men from countries where these understandings are partially or largely absent, and western women and gays have every right to be frightened.

Yes, it is true that not all Muslims adopt these attitudes, certainly not. But I really do think you would find significantly more people in Muslim countries saying that it is okay to kill gays than you would in western countries. How could you not find this, when the punishment for homosexuality in certain Muslim countries is DEATH? Or are you going to tell me that growing up in a society where someone is taught that homosexuality is such a terrible sin that those who practice it should be killed has no effect on someone's attitudes towards gays?

And are you really going to tell me that I shouldn't be concerned about these people moving in down the street from me?


Statements such as 'The totalitarian ideology named islam means war, conflict and oppression. Everywhere. Every-fucking-where.' is only contributing to the war noone wants. Hopefully the world will be ruled by more openminded people than this!
Mr. Anfindsen has one problem, though. He can't calculate: http://www.honestthinking.org/no/pub/KK.2005.06.14.SSB.Innvandrertallets_vekst.htm



Dag Asker wrote: "Mr. Anfindsen has one problem, though. He can't calculate: http://www.honestthinking.org/no/pub/KK.2005.06.14.SSB.Innvandrertallets_vekst.htm"

I wouldn't jump to conclusions if I were you. HonestThinking would of course have published the rebuttal from SSB no matter what. However, as my forthcoming article in Klassekampen will explain, the demographic researchers Lars Østby and Helge Brunborg committed some serious, methodological errors in order to reach their conclusions about me and my inability to calculate.

My rebuttal to Østby and Brunborg is expected to be published by Klassekampen later this week.



The long overdue translation into English of my background article for my criticism against SSB has finally been completed today. Hopefully, the many non-Scandinavian readers of this blog will be able to see for themselves exactly why I think my criticism against SSB is indeed warranted. However, one caveat should be mentioned: It might become necessary to adjust some of my figures since it now turns out that I may have based one of my calculations on an incorrect figure used by Mr. Østby of SSB in 1992, and I am waiting for SSB to clarify this.

Apart from that, I have yet to read anything, be it from SSB or others, which convinces me that my SAMPLE SPACE of 3 – 9% average annual growth in the future is a mistake. However, it is quite obvious that many of my critics have failed to understand that my tables of figures giving some possible future numbers of Muslims and/or non-Western immigrants in Norway, is precisely a sample space.

Also carefully note that, in spite of SSB’s accusations about this, I am of course NOT claiming that we are likely to experience CONSTANT growth rates in the future. On the contrary, we can be pretty confident that these growth rates are going to vary from year to year. Simply read the fine print surrounding said tables of figures, and you will find all the explanations you need in order to avoiding making this particular mistake (and most of those explanations have been there since day one, in case you wonder).

The background article also brings up what I believe are some fundamental ethical issues surrounding the entire question of how to deal with immigration. I thus hope to stimulate some healthy discussions about this. The necessary links can be found on the front page of www.honestThinking.org.


Oh, well, there is actually one big problem with your claim, mr. Anfindsen. You claim the possibility for a non-Norwegian majority in Norway before 2050.

This is absurd. To reach such a situation the population in Norway would have to be at least double as high in a timespan of less than 45 years, even when an ageing population is taken into consideration. Why? Because Norwegians have kids.

There is, of course, one alternative.

An extremely high (actually; unseen) number of Norwegians emigrate from our country, at the same time as we have a high immigration rate from other countries.

Frankly, it becomes quite difficult to take any accusations against SSB because of their so-called lack of reality from you when you yourself make claims and draw conclusions that are more unrealistic by far.

Of course you excuse yourself by saying that this is a what-if-analysis. They are hardly functional in demography, and when you stop your column for the highest growth-rate in 2055, stating that "you have stopped when reaching a certain number", it is tempting to point out another possibility: You stopped because the absurdity would be too obvious after 2055. But what if?.

In 2060 there would be 8.9 million Muslims in Norway. In 2070 it would be 21.2 million Muslims. In 2080 it would be 50 million Muslims. What if?

Not even in the Arab world the population growth is this fast; in Egypt the population will grow with about 84.4 percent until 2065, according to demographic prognosises. And in Norway the number of Muslims will grow with what? Several thousands of percents? Even with the lowest growth rate you think possible (5%)?

And if I understand you correctly you blame this partly on Norwegian immigration politics. Which is, in fact, not that different from immigration politics in a number of other Western European countries. Now, here is a "what-if"-scenario for you all; what if we look at the growth rate for Muslims in Europe the last 20 years and apply a growth rate of - say - 6% (the last 30 years the number has reportedly tripled, so I think that would be far using Anfindsens methodology) to Muslims in all these countries; how many Muslims will there be in the whole of Western Europe by 2050? 2065? 2080? 2100?

According to my calculations there will be about 60 million Muslims in France alone by 2050. Actually, I am beginning to think that Mother Earth is gonna be a tad more crowded than any demographer ever foresaw.

Then the question arises; where are all these Muslims coming from? I mean, with all those French, British, German, etc, Muslims I can understand where the Norwegian growth will come from; with the EU in place and all, but where will all the new Muslims in France and other European countries come from?

Of course, Northern Africa and several Arab countries will see quite a tremendous population growth the next fifty years; we might have 200 million young Northern Africans on our hands before their demographic revolution kicks in. But even if every single one of them go to Europe, somewhat unlikely I think, the population in Europe will not double; and it is supposed to do so in Norway?

Naturally, large numbers of Northern Africans and other non-Westerners; including Muslims, will want to go to the Europe the next few decades, as well, and as a Northern African politician reputedly said a few years ago: "If you do not let us in the front door, we will come in the back door, if you lock the back door, we will break it open".

This will provide us with a real demographical challenge, although our challenge will be nothing compared to the challenge Northern African countries will have to face. Your "what-if"-projections, however, seem to be the result of playing around a bit too long with Microsoft Excel.

Øyvind



Øyvind wrote:
"Oh, well, there is actually one big problem with your claim, mr. Anfindsen. You claim the possibility for a non-Norwegian majority in Norway before 2050. This is absurd."

We are of course dealing with PROBABILITIES here. Could you please quantify at what level of probability you consider something to be 'absurd'?


Mr Anfindsen has one serious flaw in his argumentation - that is the growth in the Pakistani immigrant population in Norway.

Anfindsen claims that HRS (and himself) has shown that the immigrant population grow exponentially due to massive use of the leniant familiy renunification laws of Norway. This is however not true for the largest (and oldest) immigrant group in Norway - the Pakistanis - whome supposedly are the main exploiters of the family reunification rules)


The Pakistani immigrant poulation in Norway in Norway increased with 2.5 per cent last year - the lowest in ten years. Last year the pakistani first generation immigrant population grew with 280 persons! How can Anfindsen expect to be taken serious when his main argument is wrong?

Exponential - I think not!

Unless Anfindsen can answer this fundamental error in his arguments there is no need continuing this debate.


My apologies for not giving a reply sooner, but debating Antirasistisk Senter in Klassekampen and on the web (look at http://www.antirasistisk-senter.no/ and you will see what I mean), doing my day-to-day work, being a father at home, and some other things, are overwhelming me these days.

Sigurd Jakobsen’s arguments are clearly interesting, and should not be dismissed lightly. The following are my preliminary reactions.

“Mr Anfindsen has one serious flaw in his argumentation - that is the growth in the Pakistani immigrant population in Norway.”

Jakobsen is, in my opinion, overstating his case here. Even if it should be the case that the Pakistani immigrant population in Norway will continue to grow at a ‘mere’ 2.5% per year, it does not follow that my overall argument is flawed.

“Anfindsen claims that HRS (and himself) has shown that the immigrant population grow exponentially due to massive use of the leniant familiy renunification laws of Norway.”

This is not quite what I (or HRS) have claimed. Rather, the statistics presented by SSB (which must not be confused with the prognoses from SSB – the former is about history, the latter about the future), and the additional statistics HRS has requested from SSB and presented in their recent report to the Norwegian Parliament, show that the growth over the past 10 – 20 years has been quite dramatic.

Now, this growth can be broken down into multiple components. Some of these components are hardly or not at all exponential. Other components are indeed exponential. When trying to understand why some of the components of the growth are exponential, fetching marriages (‘henteekteskap’) seem to be a significant part of the explanation.

For some of our immigrant groups a very high percentage of the young people who do get married find their spouse in their country of origin. For several groups this percentage is in the area of 60 – 80%, and Pakistanis have until now not been an exception.

“This is however not true for the largest (and oldest) immigrant group in Norway - the Pakistanis - whome supposedly are the main exploiters of the family reunification rules)”

May I remind you that I have been criticized for not being careful enough when drawing inferences about the future based on historical data. And, of course, trying to predict the future is risky business indeed. Even so, I think we have enough data to say that the immigrant population of Norway is not going to stop growing anytime soon. I have stated that I doubt annual growth rates will fall below 5% in the foreseeable future, but I am prepared to revise that figure. In particular because SSB seems to correct one of their own figures upon which my calculations were built. I am currently in a wait-and-see mode on this one (according to SSB the average annual growth for non-Western immigrants in Norway during 1990 – 2004 was 6.5%, not above 8% which their earlier figures indicated).

Now, the previous paragraph was written just to put Jakobsen’s statement in perspective. The fact (assuming his facts are correct – I have no particular reason to doubt them) that the growth of the Pakistani immigrant population in Norway was low last year, is in itself insufficient grounds for concluding that this is a long-term trend. However, if we are indeed observing a long-term trend here, then that would be very interesting, and of course quite significant.

“The Pakistani immigrant poulation in Norway in Norway increased with 2.5 per cent last year - the lowest in ten years. Last year the pakistani first generation immigrant population grew with 280 persons! How can Anfindsen expect to be taken serious when his main argument is wrong?”

I expect to be taken seriously not because of a detailed analysis of year-to-year trends for specific national groups, but because I have made some observations about overall trends that I consider quite alarming. To repeat myself: The development in e.g. Sweden, Holland, and France is very, very disturbing, and each of those countries were in “full control” (just like Norway) a few years ago. Today, those countries are in dire straits indeed.

For example, you may want to read the article “Is France on the way to becoming an Islamic state?”, published by The Daily Telegraph, where the following statement is found: ”many demographers estimate that as much as 20-30 per cent of the population under 25 is now Muslim […] Given current birth rates, it is not impossible that in 25 years France will have a Muslim majority”. Links to this and other pertinent articles can be found here: www.honestThinking.org.

“Exponential - I think not!”

This remark from Jakobsen really puzzles me. Exponential does not necessarily mean strong. Loosely speaking exponential means growth that is PROPORTIONAL to what you already have. Unless Pakistanis (or other groups) have started a voluntary wave of repatriation, I expect continued exponential growth in their numbers. Perhaps by 2 – 4% per year, perhaps by 5 – 7% per year. There are, relatively speaking, huge numbers of Pakistanis in Norway approaching marriage age, and if some 75% of them will marry a person from Pakistan, my guess is that we are going to see growth rates higher than 2.5% again. Unless, that is, SSB will hide some of these numbers from us, as is currently their habit (because of the way SSB defines ‘immigrant’ – this could, by the way, possibly be part of the explanation for Jakobsen’s low numbers). Time will show.

“Unless Anfindsen can answer this fundamental error in his arguments there is no need continuing this debate.”

This debate is unlikely to disappear anytime soon, as far as I can tell. The Muslim and non-Western population of Norway (and Europe) will almost certainly continue to grow, and this is going to present us with an increasing amount of challenges.


Marc, USA 6-8-05 wrote:

"..........Yes, it is true that not all Muslims adopt these attitudes, certainly not. But I really do think you would find significantly more people in Muslim countries saying that it is okay to kill gays than you would in western countries........"

Marc,
I cannot but agree with you 110% re:your fears, just as I ,a woman, woould entertain similar fears about the exponential increase in misogyny that the importing of people who subscribe to tenets of such nefarious cult as Ysssshlam is bound to occasion.

Sadly , those who are in power and who are involved in policy making ( the majority being white males - heterosexual presumably) could'nt care less about the foreboding futuristic scenario of rampant institutionalized misogyny or for that matter ( probably even less) for the potential for horrific and religiously sanctioned persekkkution of gays and lesbians
etc.a la islam. Why should they care...as Susan so aptly put it they lack the proper apparatus to suffer rape or other forms of sexual violation as only a woman can experience ( and we won't even touch on the subject of religiously motivated rape of gays and lesbians LOL ).

...........but mind you , there is a fatal flaw in such callous and chauvinistic disregard...for they overlook the fact that Issslam is a perverse creed that suppresses sexual expressions diligently also among heterosexuals, so that there will come a time when kissing in public between a man and woman will be punishable by flogging , and having a one-nite stand or extramarital fling will bring about the death penalty by stoning. Only then will the heterosexual majority awaken when it hits them hard between the groins -- by then it would be too late....(!).....

.......burqas and chadors will be in vogue and PENIS BEHEADING will be the order of the day for those errant play-boys LOL

Sister Ayesha Nyanaponika Kim
Sufi-buddhist Cassandra


There is another way to calculate the precentage of non-western immigrants. You can use a numerical code that works like this

number of non-western immigrants (year+1)
=
number of non-western immigrants (year)
+ new immigrants entering the country in one year
+ number of new immigrants born in the country
- number of deaths

You do the same for original population taking account that the number of children of each group, and the average age of the first children.

Running the code in a computer you can accurately calculate the percentage of immigrants.
Most of European countries will have a non- Western majority of population between 2040-2050, and some before it.

14 out of 15 counties in the (old) UE receive more immigrants every year than children born in the country (including immigrants children). It is clear that in next generation Europeans will be a minority in Europe.


The Bubonic Plague is said to have been caused by the destruction of the forests, habitat for the wolves, and brought the rats into the cities carrying fleas and plague. It seems that when Europe rid itself of its Jews, it likewise opened itself up to the plague again. Will it survive?


Fernando wrote: "+ number of new immigrants born in the country"

Immigrants born in the country? Interesting concept.

What no one has yet to explain is where all these Muslim immigrants are going to come from, even if we include the entire population growth of Northern Africa for the next decades and children born off non-western immigrants in Europe. Add probable upcoming HIV problems in North Africa and the Middle East to the mix and the numbers does not really fit. Add the fact that birth rates are dropping steadily amongst Muslims world over (except in some Gulf States and a couple of Central African states), also amongst Muslim minorities in Europe, and your theory starts to look like like a Swiss cheese.

Anyway; there has actually been done serious research on this. An economist called Karoly Lorant has written a report called "The demographic challenge in Europe" for the European commission, available here:

http://www.europarl.eu.int/inddem/docs/papers/The%20demographic%20challenge%20in%20Europe.pdf

Except for what she calls the "naive scenario" the Muslim population in Europe does not even come close to a majority, and in the naive scenario the Muslim population is still below 50% in 2100.

Øyvind


http://www.velmabs.com/wwwboard/messages/14415.html currentmontgomerypause


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